The Coward of Caledonia?

[charter.rights]

Anything is better than "First Nations". Sounds fascist.

I guess you won't mind the other two since both of the words mean "original people".

[DogOnPorch]

Physicists and astrologists are also consulting with the Navajo. Seems the Navajo have an advanced understanding of the universe AND the physical world that the scientists believe will help them bridge some barriers they have encountered. Terrible isn't it, how some ancient oral history can exceed the understanding of modern scientists?

What have they exceeded 'the understanding of modern scientists' in? Or is that a secret?

----------------------------------

I like whiskey. I always did, and that is why I never drink it.

---Gen. Robert E. Lee, CSA

[DogOnPorch]

I guess you won't mind the other two since both of the words mean "original people".

Original people what? I'm probably older than you and numerous other "Indians"...more "Native" to my area than the vast majority. You're only special in your head...and those of pussy PC politicians.

----------------------------

Duty, Honor, Country. Those three hallowed words reverently dictate what you ought to be, what you can be, what you will be.

---Gen. Douglas MacArthur

[charter.rights]

Original people what? I'm probably older than you and numerous other "Indians"...more "Native" to my area than the vast majority. You're only special in your head...and those of pussy PC politicians.

Not likely you are older than me or more "native" to the area than the majority of my friends..

Onkwe'hon:we is THEIR word. It is what THEY call themselves. It is not a modern adaptation. It is an old word which is derived from their creation story. Maybe you should look into that a bit further to understand why THEY ARE the Original People.

[DogOnPorch]

Not likely you are older than me or more "native" to the area than the majority of my friends..

Onkwe'hon:we is THEIR word. It is what THEY call themselves. It is not a modern adaptation. It is an old word which is derived from their creation story. Maybe you should look into that a bit further to understand why THEY ARE the Original People.

Well, in DogOnPorch's Canada, we'd all be treated equal...that includes "Native Indians". I guess just pray I never get in power. Until then...Canada's "Native Indians" can continue being the Palestinians of North America. Always the victim. Maybe a two state solution?? That'd be a laugh. Some folks might actually have to go to work! That is, unless one runs their economy via illegal smokes, bingo halls and casinos...oh...wait.

-------------------------------------------------

The Palestinian Rifle is ready and we will aim it if they try to prevent us from praying in Jerusalem.

---Yasser Arafat

[DogOnPorch]

Oh...and typically...you didn't answer my simple question of: "What have they (the Navajo) exceeded 'the understanding of modern scientists' in? Or is that a secret?" Apparently it IS a secret??

---------------------------------------------

There is an endless supply of white men. There has always been a limited number of human beings.

---Chief Dan George as "Old Lodge Skins"

[gullyfourmyle]

The only reason they appear to have "taken care" of the land is because they had a relatively small population! Do you really believe that primitive tribes understood eco-science and conservation?

I think the historical record would show that when they hunted, farmed or fished out a given area they simply picked up and moved on to a fresh one. After a few generations the area they left behind would have recovered. Give them a few more hundred years of increasing their numbers and the situation would likely have become a lot less positive.

In this I believe Wild Bill is right on the money. Slash and burn agriculture was how all agriculture started where there was bush to be cleared and it still occurs in some parts of the world.

Indigenous populations don't want to move to new locations; they are forced to move. They do so because eons old experience has told them that if they don't, their next crop will be a life threatening disaster.

They are stuck doing the right thing by default. Modern integrated Aboriginals are no more mindful of the land than anyone else. Worse in some cases.

However, regardless of new influences, their original lifestyles were the most eco friendly civilizations ever developed. The Middle East landscape is the result of going one small step beyond the type of agriculture practiced here by the Iroquois.

The thing is we need to figure out how to adapt that early process to modern times and super-sized populations.

Good luck to that.

[charter.rights]

In this I believe Wild Bill is right on the money. Slash and burn agriculture was how all agriculture started where there was bush to be cleared and it still occurs in some parts of the world.

Indigenous populations don't want to move to new locations; they are forced to move. They do so because eons old experience has told them that if they don't, their next crop will be a life threatening disaster.

They are stuck doing the right thing by default. Modern integrated Aboriginals are no more mindful of the land than anyone else. Worse in some cases.

However, regardless of new influences, their original lifestyles were the most eco friendly civilizations ever developed. The Middle East landscape is the result of going one small step beyond the type of agriculture practiced here by the Iroquois.

The thing is we need to figure out how to adapt that early process to modern times and super-sized populations.

Good luck to that.

No that's a wrong assumption.

What we see today on reserves - especially where it concerns the disrespect of the land - is the result of our colonial influence on people. Being pushed onto a reserve and demanding that to come off it requires compliance with our way of thinking is the cause of these problems. Those native people that are returning to a more traditional life show much more reverence and respect of land than most settler types and they engage the season and nature in their everyday life, as well as preserving and practicing principles that are the foundation of their societies.

And of course that is the root of the problem in us trying to judge them both in modern and historical terms. We try to use examples of the worst of native society to bolster a "they are not anywhere as good as us" mentality. And what we are really judging is the worst of our influence on them - not their traditional way of life. And further this is the root of the misinformation formed from elementary grade history in that "the poor savage" mentality is as far as most people want to go in looking at history. Once you get past your own prejudices and inferiority complex then you can see authentic native culture for what it is - not a superior OR inferior system, but one that is completely different from our own.

The practice of agriculture is hardly as simplistic as a gully full will imply. Rather it was (and is) one built on communion with nature. The essential ingredients to survival are contained in their practices - a survival that has spanned thousands of years and reached into today. Without our oil we could not sustain modern farming practice. Without ancient knowledge farming would quickly erode with the soil. Yet our farmers today have adapted many of those practices that were employed by the Iroquois farmers more than 300 or 400 years ago. Companion planting, crop rotation, no till planting, seasonal timing etc. in order to reduce their dependence on oil products and chemical soil enrichment. Yet we are still prone to crapping and pissing on our land and ingesting the bacteria and pharmaceutical passed through our system into the food chain, at least we are beginning to realize that OUR lifestyle and practices are not sustainable. Yet we can't convince corporations that our food is a vital resource and NOT a commodity to be played with, we still must convince the dumber parts (and often most educated types) that trading for shares in cucumbers and potatoes and betting they will get to markets 2500 miles away is a poor investment. Unless and until we begin to take responsibility for our food, like the traditional Iroquois people are, we are doomed for starvation. The sad fact is that the majority of city dwellers would have little resource to survive if suddenly their food supply was cut off, even though many of think think (like some do here) that grass has nutritional value. Half of them could not identify their local food sources and the other half would be too disgusted to eat it. Still they prefer listeria-infected meat by-products, e-coli tainted Mexican salad greens and pretty chlorine laced carrots to real food grown organically by local farmers, whose knowledge stems not from advanced scientific research, but from tried and true methods which originated with aboriginal technology.

If anyone can wonder about the extent of Iroquois agricultural practices, just consider this:

Corn originated in Central America and was brought north by pre-Iroquoian cultures. Corn that populates the world today was hybridized and selected by natural propagation by the Iroquois people over centuries to proliferate in our colder climates and shorter seasons. To understand and select the relationship between the weather, the seasons, planting and harvesting times, pollination and the selection of species was not some fluke occurrence. It was careful attention to the full cycle of life over generations, seasonal influences on the plants and the selection and preservation of seed strains that gives us corn today. And while scientists attempt to tinker with the varieties available today, the old seed caches still exist today, just in case they get it wrong.

Personally, I'm grateful to my Iroquoian friends for teaching me the importance of acclimatising my seed stock to the soils and seasons in my own garden. I now have about 10 years worth of seed supply that I have been re-using over a 25 or more period that not only gives me plenty of yield in organic soils, but enough that it will give my children and grandchildren plenty of heritage seed in their lifetimes to survive upon free and clear of the poisons, biological contamination and genetic modifications that the rest of your food is sourced from.

[Smallc]

No that's a wrong assumption.

What we see today on reserves - especially where it concerns the disrespect of the land - is the result of our colonial influence on people.

Always somebody else's fault.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh...and typically...you didn't answer my simple question of: "What have they (the Navajo) exceeded 'the understanding of modern scientists' in? Or is that a secret?" Apparently it IS a secret??

Well...?

-------------------------------

We have deep depth.

---Yogi Berra

[gullyfourmyle]

My comments were not about the Iroquois. There are plenty of other tribes.

Have you ever heard the term 'wooden windows'? Those are sheets of plywood covering what would have been glass windows. Behind every wooden window is some sort of tragedy. Wooden windows don't hide spiritual growth. You don't experience much spiritual growth while your culture is under siege and at some point, caring about what exactly happens to the land while you are living a life of enforced boredom on a reservation takes a distant back seat. They can't be faulted for that as I've said before. And when you're forced to live in altered circumstances, respect for the land and self has to suffer. Not for all, but for most.

When you have no option but to farm in a certain way, regardless of whether it's good bad or indifferent, that's what you do. Our modern methods have developed over centuries of experimentation and social change from communities that moved around to fresh locations to communities that became rooted to the spot. Until our cultures were able to combine crop rotation and technology, all civilizations before us collapsed.

Our methods seemed to work best for long term but living in one spot for too long always generates disease. Fixed urban centres are also disease magnets. No living thing has ever evolved to live in that way. There has to be renewal. The fact that we abused the land at the same time and put off judgment day does not mean we won the race. The various aboriginal methods were always best for the land because they gave the land a chance to rest and revitalize.

Even though native cultures didn't have much to move, it was still a pain in the ass to move. And the fact that they had to move reduced the amount of permanent stuff it was worthwhile developing since it had to be carried. Having to carry everything was a strong incentive not to develop beyond slash and burn.

Dogs couldn't drag or carry as much as a man. Plus they were never 100% dependable about haring off with your stuff if they got a whiff of something interesting.

That's one of the reasons horses made so much of a difference.

You can't ascribe the higher sentiments to anyone who had no choice or could conceive of no choice. They also had no way of foreseeing just how ugly things would get by letting Europeans establish themselves in North America. If they'd been able to do that, the Aboriginals would have wiped out all the European settlements and kept at it. But they had no idea what they were up against. Plus they, like the tribes in Africa had all sorts of small wars going on that allowed Europeans to divide and conquer.

When I visualized back in 1970 what the world would be like by the year 2000, only my art teacher felt I was likely right. Everyone else thought I was completely nuts. Too bad there isn't a way of posting images on this site. I'd show you how accurate my visions were. The point is I could see it, but most absolutely could not. So how could any native person possibly conceive of the alternatives to living within the harsh rules survival in those days meant. For any native culture to have ignored their environmental needs would have brought about their own deaths fairly swiftly. Easter Island is a great example of that. Those people thought they were living in harmony with nature but they weren't. Eventually they had to resort to cannibalism to control their numbers. Disease and starvation took care of the details.

[charter.rights]

My comments were not about the Iroquois. There are plenty of other tribes.

Have you ever heard the term 'wooden windows'? Those are sheets of plywood covering what would have been glass windows. Behind every wooden window is some sort of tragedy. Wooden windows don't hide spiritual growth. You don't experience much spiritual growth while your culture is under siege and at some point, caring about what exactly happens to the land while you are living a life of enforced boredom on a reservation takes a distant back seat. They can't be faulted for that as I've said before. And when you're forced to live in altered circumstances, respect for the land and self has to suffer. Not for all, but for most.

When you have no option but to farm in a certain way, regardless of whether it's good bad or indifferent, that's what you do. Our modern methods have developed over centuries of experimentation and social change from communities that moved around to fresh locations to communities that became rooted to the spot. Until our cultures were able to combine crop rotation and technology, all civilizations before us collapsed.

Our methods seemed to work best for long term but living in one spot for too long always generates disease. Fixed urban centres are also disease magnets. No living thing has ever evolved to live in that way. There has to be renewal. The fact that we abused the land at the same time and put off judgment day does not mean we won the race. The various aboriginal methods were always best for the land because they gave the land a chance to rest and revitalize.

Even though native cultures didn't have much to move, it was still a pain in the ass to move. And the fact that they had to move reduced the amount of permanent stuff it was worthwhile developing since it had to be carried. Having to carry everything was a strong incentive not to develop beyond slash and burn.

Dogs couldn't drag or carry as much as a man. Plus they were never 100% dependable about haring off with your stuff if they got a whiff of something interesting.

That's one of the reasons horses made so much of a difference.

You can't ascribe the higher sentiments to anyone who had no choice or could conceive of no choice. They also had no way of foreseeing just how ugly things would get by letting Europeans establish themselves in North America. If they'd been able to do that, the Aboriginals would have wiped out all the European settlements and kept at it. But they had no idea what they were up against. Plus they, like the tribes in Africa had all sorts of small wars going on that allowed Europeans to divide and conquer.

When I visualized back in 1970 what the world would be like by the year 2000, only my art teacher felt I was likely right. Everyone else thought I was completely nuts. Too bad there isn't a way of posting images on this site. I'd show you how accurate my visions were. The point is I could see it, but most absolutely could not. So how could any native person possibly conceive of the alternatives to living within the harsh rules survival in those days meant. For any native culture to have ignored their environmental needs would have brought about their own deaths fairly swiftly. Easter Island is a great example of that. Those people thought they were living in harmony with nature but they weren't. Eventually they had to resort to cannibalism to control their numbers. Disease and starvation took care of the details.

Hogwash!

You miss a very important point. It was not difficult to move when you were only moving 30 miles down the river and everything you needed could either be obtained there or was brought through contact and trade with other traveling native people. As centuries passed moving villages (just like migrating to winter and summer camps) was relatively routine and an anticipated event. Imagine being able to pick up roots at will and move to a more prosperous area without any concern that your livelihood needs would be met. And while farming like this was not an easy or simple event, ceremonies were created so that the entire community participated in the planting, weeding and harvesting of food.

Slash and burn technology was only used when clear-cutting a new village site and occasionally scrubbing existing farm fields after a move. There was no massive or repeated destruction of timber lands, or massive contamination of rivers and streams, like modern farmers do today.

You point about cannibalism being an option is about obtuse as anyone can get. Where did you get that idea from? An America Revolution memorabilia bubblegum card?

Next thing you know you'll be trying to sell us that the Wendat occupied the lake shore region and that Gandesetaigon was really at Pickering on the Rouge River - another of the many myths started by people who haven't got a clue.

[DogOnPorch]

Oh...and typically...you didn't answer my simple question of: "What have they (the Navajo) exceeded 'the understanding of modern scientists' in? Or is that a secret?" Apparently it IS a secret??

Well...?

-------------------------------

We have deep depth.

---Yogi Berra

So, you're either completely full of BS or afraid to answer. Which is it?

-----------------------------------

Is this your pen??

---Robert DeNiro: Casino

[charter.rights]

So, you're either completely full of BS or afraid to answer. Which is it?

-----------------------------------

Is this your pen??

---Robert DeNiro: Casino

Take it to another thread.

[Wild Bill]

So, you're either completely full of BS or afraid to answer. Which is it?

-----------------------------------

Is this your pen??

---Robert DeNiro: Casino

Your wasting your time, I'm afraid. You will never get any sort of proof from this poster. He seems to feel he speaks "ex cathedra". Like the Pope, we are simply supposed to believe him because he says so, period and end of story.

I suggest you do as I have done. Put him on your "ignore" list.

[AngusThermopyle]

Your wasting your time, I'm afraid. You will never get any sort of proof from this poster.

Too true.

Many times I've asked and waited for credible proof from this poster and never seen a single shred of it.

Ignore is looking like the best option in this case.

[charter.rights]

Too true.

Many times I've asked and waited for credible proof from this poster and never seen a single shred of it.

Ignore is looking like the best option in this case.

Ah! An early Monday morning troll. What a better way to start the week.

[DogOnPorch]

Take it to another thread.

No...this is the right thread. 'Afraid' and 'full of BS'...seems we can all see this. You brought it up...but apparently can't expand on this bit of information.

So the conclusion we can reach is: 'No. Navajo Native Indians didn't have anywhere near the scientific understanding of the planet that existed in Western Civilization circa its arrival.'

But we all knew that, already....

-------------------------------------------

To me there has never been a higher source of earthly honor or distinction than that connected with advances in science.

---Sir Isaac Newton

[charter.rights]

No...this is the right thread. 'Afraid' and 'full of BS'...seems we can all see this. You brought it up...but apparently can't expand on this bit of information.

So the conclusion we can reach is: 'No. Navajo Native Indians didn't have anywhere near the scientific understanding of the planet that existed in Western Civilization circa its arrival.'

But we all knew that, already....

Reach any conclusion that you want. It hasn't stopped you before. But your conclusions don't resemble the facts and that is the separation between reality and your conditioned fantasy.

[AngusThermopyle]

Well I've spent a few days looking on the web and apart from corn there aren't any scientific achievements or accomplishments accredited to North American Natives. It would appear CR is once again just making stuff up and trying to pass it off as fact.

Perhaps I didn't look thoroughly enough though and some Native Grand Unification Theory has been overlooked. I doubt it though.

If anyone can find anything of any significance post a link to it. If such does actually exist I would be very interested to know what exactly these advances over Europeans actually constitute.

[Oleg Bach]

Well I've spent a few days looking on the web and apart from corn there aren't any scientific achievements or accomplishments accredited to North American Natives. It would appear CR is once again just making stuff up and trying to pass it off as fact.

Perhaps I didn't look thoroughly enough though and some Native Grand Unification Theory has been overlooked. I doubt it though.

If anyone can find anything of any significance post a link to it. If such does actually exist I would be very interested to know what exactly these advances over Europeans actually constitute.

The ancient natives surpassed "scientific achievements" - they knew there was an ultimate intelligent force that flowed with the laws of nature - call it the creator or God - or what ever - what have we achieved other than blind and arrogant secular corporatizm....which goes against the law of nature - look at the southern states and the horrific clash with the natural world and natural law - the weather is kicking the crap out of civilization - if you want to call it that - where fat ladies line up with plastic milk jugs to buy gasoline from crooks controlled by crooks controled by bigger ignorant Saudi sodomites...go figure -

[DogOnPorch]

Reach any conclusion that you want. It hasn't stopped you before. But your conclusions don't resemble the facts and that is the separation between reality and your conditioned fantasy.

So give us a link, then.

------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[Oleg Bach]

So give us a link, then.

------------------------

It's a Daisy.

Fantasitic reality and links? I have to go now - as far as McGinty whimping out - what do you expect from a hyperactive version of Dion?

[M.Dancer]

Ah! An early Monday morning troll. What a better way to start the week.

That seems to be your standard answer to anyone who asks for you to back up your claims.

[DogOnPorch]

Fantasitic reality and links? I have to go now - as far as McGinty whimping out - what do you expect from a hyperactive version of Dion?

CR is, indeed, not to be taken seriously.

------------------------------

Happiness is a warm gun--bang, bang--shoot, shoot.

---The Beatles