Canada Puts U.S. on Torture Watch List

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

So far I have not heard an official government response to this Canadian watch list.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Omar Khadr's lawyers say they can't understand why Canada is not doing more to help their client in light of new evidence that Ottawa has put the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on a watch list for torture.
Khadr -- a Canadian citizen who was just 15-years-old when he was captured in Afghanistan more than five years ago and taken to Guantanamo -- has claimed that he has been tortured at the prison. Now, CTV News has obtained documents that put Guantanamo Bay on a torture watch list.

Khadr's U.S. military lawyer says the new documents contradict Harper's assurances that his client is receiving fair treatment.

"Omar has certainly been abused, his rights have been violated under international law, and apparently the Canadian government has reason to believe that's true, and yet, they've acted not at all to assist him," William Kuebler told CTV News.

Khadr's lawyers say suspicions of torture undermine claims that he can get a fair trial from the military commission in Guantanamo Bay. They want him sent back to Canada to face justice here. But the government has said he's charged with serious crimes and they are waiting for the U.S. judicial process to play itself out.

FTA Lawyer · January 17, 2008

What more will it take for action by our government to attempt to stop its citizens (even ones accused of very bad things, who have very bad parents) from being subjected to such injustice?

A Lt. Commander in the US NAVY JAG Corp saying that Khadr has been abused and his rights under international law violated does it for me...

FTA

DrGreenthumb · January 17, 2008

.....yet another reason why Canada should refuse to extradite Marc Emery to the US. In Canada the courts have determined that a 200 dollar fine is the appropriate punishment for selling pot seeds, in America Marc will never get a fair trial , and will be subjected to 30 years in prison in a foriegn country that tortures its prisoners.

Waterboarding is torture, there is no question about it.

August1991 · January 17, 2008

It is extreme to the point of plain wrong to state that Canada has put the US on a "torture watch" list. Rather, in a bureaucratic workshop, the example of Guantanamo Bay is used. No politician made the choice. Some outside contractor probably did.

...CTV News has learned that, as part of a "torture awareness workshop," diplomats are now being told where to watch for abuse.
The aim of the workshop: to teach diplomats who visit Canadians in foreign jails how to tell if they've been tortured. It also listed countries and places with greater risks of torture. The list includes Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and China. But surprisingly, it also included the United States, Guantanamo Bay, and Israel.

And how did CTV learn this? From Khadr's lawyers.

This is spin upon spin.

And Dobbin, it changes the subject from the remarkably clear and consistent Afghan policy proposals of your deal leader.

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

What more will it take for action by our government to attempt to stop its citizens (even ones accused of very bad things, who have very bad parents) from being subjected to such injustice?
A Lt. Commander in the US NAVY JAG Corp saying that Khadr has been abused and his rights under international law violated does it for me...

It seems very likely that Guantanamo will be closed and Khadr will eventually end up being turned over to Canada. The official Canadian government response has been nothing in regards to anything in regards to Khadr except to list the U.S. as a state that does torture.

August1991 · January 17, 2008

The official Canadian government response has been nothing in regards to anything in regards to Khadr except to list the U.S. as a state that does torture.

The Canadian government has done nothing of the sort.

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

It is extreme to the point of plain wrong to state that Canada has put the US on a "torture watch" list. Rather, in a bureaucratic workshop, the example of Guantanamo Bay is used. No politician made the choice. Some outside contractor probably did.
And how did CTV learn this? From Khadr's lawyers.

This is spin upon spin.

And Dobbin, it changes the subject from the remarkably clear and consistent Afghan policy proposals of your deal leader.

A contractor was responsible for this document? Do you have evidence of that?

The information comes from the U.S. itself apparently. They are talking about it on the news this morning. You don't think that abuses have taken place in Guantanamo even though JAG lawyers from the U.S. say they have?

Both Liberal and Conservative are to blame for the response on Guantanamo. Canada is the only nation that has not spoken up about its own citizen. Is the policy you are talking about?

Guantanamo is likely to be closed if McCain or any Democratic candidate gets elected. The issue of Khadr won't go away no matter how you spin it.

Edited January 17, 2008 by jdobbin

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

The Canadian government has done nothing of the sort.

Why were they recovered and blacked out? Who made this assessment? It seems it was government officials.

But it appears that Ottawa may have had second thoughts about being so explicit. After the documents were released as evidence in a court case relating to Afghan detainees, the government tried to get them back. Sources say that Ottawa apparently wanted to black out sensitive parts that may anger allies.

This a rogue Foreign Affairs person who created this document? Who will be fired as a result? Where is the investigation for this false accusation?

Edited January 17, 2008 by jdobbin

DrGreenthumb · January 17, 2008

Why were they recovered and blacked out? Who made this assessment? It seems it was government officials.
This a rogue Foreign Affairs person who was going created this document Who will be fired as a result? Where is the investigation for this false accusation?

There will be no investigation because that would only reveal more evidence of torture. Canada should be ashamed if it allows Marc Emery to be extradited to a country known to engage in torture, for a crime Canadians do not even deem worth prosecuting. The last time anyone in Canada was charged for selling pot seeds was almost 10 years ago and that person recieved a 200 dollar fine. The us is seeking a minimum 10 years, to life in prison for the same offence. Marc has been forced to take a plea deal from the US because our government is too much of a pussy to refuse the American request. Makes me sick. Vote out the conservatives. Irwin Cotler of the Liberals had a chance to prevent this or to never allow it to happen, but chose not to. If Marc is sent to the US an our justice minister stands by and does nothing, I encourage all Canadians to punish the liberals and conservatives for not protecting a Canadian hero, and vote for any other party, preferably the NDP, who are the only ones to have publicly denounced the extradition.

capricorn · January 17, 2008

It is extreme to the point of plain wrong to state that Canada has put the US on a "torture watch" list. Rather, in a bureaucratic workshop, the example of Guantanamo Bay is used. No politician made the choice. Some outside contractor probably did.
And how did CTV learn this? From Khadr's lawyers.

This is spin upon spin.

There are two possibilities. One, the production of this training document is another example of poor communication between senior bureaucrats and the government. Or two, top bureaucrats are purposely ignoring government policy and are doing their own thing.

A spokesperson for Foreign Affairs Minister Bernier said the document should not reflect the government's views and the training manual is not government policy.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008...amo-manual.html

The fact that the top echelons of the public service are filled with Liberal appointees is a very serious problem for the Conservatives. Those public service appointees are perfectly positioned to do all kinds of things to undermine the Conservatives and their policies. The release of this training manual is a perfect illustration of this problem.

White Doors · January 17, 2008

.....yet another reason why Canada should refuse to extradite Marc Emery to the US. In Canada the courts have determined that a 200 dollar fine is the appropriate punishment for selling pot seeds, in America Marc will never get a fair trial , and will be subjected to 30 years in prison in a foriegn country that tortures its prisoners.
Waterboarding is torture, there is no question about it.

you been hiding under a rock? I thought Emery was your hero? He agreed to a plea deal of 5 years.

In other old news..

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

The fact that the top echelons of the public service are filled with Liberal appointees is a very serious problem for the Conservatives. Those public service appointees are perfectly positioned to do all kinds of things to undermine the Conservatives and their policies. The release of this training manual is a perfect illustration of this problem.

We know that the Conservatives have starting to place their own people in positions. We have seen that in the case of AECL that perhaps they should have just hired a professional.

If it was a Liberal appointee responsible for this, I'm sure we would hear about it. However, if it helps to say that all civil servants are Liberals...

capricorn · January 17, 2008

We know that the Conservatives have starting to place their own people in positions.

Good. The Liberals do the same thing whenever they are elected. A government in power needs senior bureaucrats who will act within the policy framework of the governing party. Otherwise there is chaos.

DrGreenthumb · January 17, 2008

you been hiding under a rock? I thought Emery was your hero? He agreed to a plea deal of 5 years.
In other old news..

Emery IS a hero, and if you'd even read the post you would have seen that i mentiioned the plea deal in it. It is only further proof of Marc emery's good character that he is willing to sacrifice the next 5 years of his life in order to prevent his 2 friends from serving time in a US gulag. If our government wasn't so pathetic they would tell the DEA to go Frisk themselves, and refuse the extradition outright as Canadians do not agree with the punishment he would recieve there. He had to take a plea so that his friend michelle rainey will not have to go to a US prison where they will deny her the medical mj that she needs to survive. The conservatives and the liberals must share the blame for this fiasco, but the conservatives are especially guilty for allowing this to go ahead. They have the power to stop this extradition by simply allowing Marc to be tried in Canada for his alleged "crimes." Instead they have been actively interfering in and preventing Marc's trial from going ahead here in Canada. He has twice been charged in Canada by private citizens and the conservatives have interfered and stopped the Canadian trial from going ahead.

They conservatioves don't like Marc or his message of freedom and they are thrilled to ship him off to a country whose government shares their hatred of all things pot. Nicholson is probably rubbing his hands together with glee anticipating sending our prince of pot off to a country known to torture and abuse its prisoners.

Harper's hard-on for busting non-criminals in the cannabis community will be his undoing. We are a huge block of votes and his treatment of Mr Emery along with his dumbshit crime bill c-26 will be remembered at election time. There are plenty of people like me that will be reminding Cannadians what the conservatives think of our community. I'll bet that there are more pot smokers than conservatives in this country.

Canada should automatically refuse extradition to the US because they are known to use torture. At the very least we should be refusing extradition of all non-violent accused persons, especially if the punishment they would recieve there is much harsher than we ourselves deem appropriate.

Edited January 17, 2008 by DrGreenthumb

White Doors · January 17, 2008

So your plan is to rally daily, habitual pot smokers to action?

lol

Wilber · January 17, 2008

Emery IS a hero, and if you'd even read the post you would have seen that i mentiioned the plea deal in it. It is only further proof of Marc emery's good character that he is willing to sacrifice the next 5 years of his life in order to prevent his 2 friends from serving time in a US gulag. If our government wasn't so pathetic they would tell the DEA to go Frisk themselves, and refuse the extradition outright as Canadians do not agree with the punishment he would recieve there. He had to take a plea so that his friend michelle rainey will not have to go to a US prison where they will deny her the medical mj that she needs to survive. The conservatives and the liberals must share the blame for this fiasco, but the conservatives are especially guilty for allowing this to go ahead. They have the power to stop this extradition by simply allowing Marc to be tried in Canada for his alleged "crimes." Instead they have been actively interfering in and preventing Marc's trial from going ahead here in Canada. He has twice been charged in Canada by private citizens and the conservatives have interfered and stopped the Canadian trial from going ahead.
They conservatioves don't like Marc or his message of freedom and they are thrilled to ship him off to a country whose government shares their hatred of all things pot. Nicholson is probably rubbing his hands together with glee anticipating sending our prince of pot off to a country known to torture and abuse its prisoners.

Harper's hard-on for busting non-criminals in the cannabis community will be his undoing. We are a huge block of votes and his treatment of Mr Emery along with his dumbshit crime bill c-26 will be remembered at election time. There are plenty of people like me that will be reminding Cannadians what the conservatives think of our community. I'll bet that there are more pot smokers than conservatives in this country.

Canada should automatically refuse extradition to the US because they are known to use torture. At the very least we should be refusing extradition of all non-violent accused persons, especially if the punishment they would recieve there is much harsher than we ourselves deem appropriate.

Emery sought to hide behind Canada while flouting the laws of another country. A cowardly act IMO. The Americans obviously don't want him, they just want to make a point to others who would do the same. We would feel the same way if someone was hiding on the other side of the border abusing our laws. He is getting off easy. If he cut a deal it's because he knew their extradition request had a good chance. If so he was looking at real time in a US slammer.

jdobbin · January 17, 2008

Good. The Liberals do the same thing whenever they are elected. A government in power needs senior bureaucrats who will act within the policy framework of the governing party. Otherwise there is chaos.

My understanding was that the Tories believed the entire civil service was Liberal. It seems they wanted to go the way of PEI where you fire even the people who drive the snowplows.

DrGreenthumb · January 17, 2008

thats a pile of shit. The us could have easily put a crimp in the seed business by arresting Marc's American customers. Nobody stateside has been charged for ORDERING the seeds. Marc has never set foot in the usa. Anyone in the world could order online seeds. There are hundreds of seed companies still operating, mostly in countries that have the balls to say no to the states however. Marc is no coward. You are a coward, too afraid to make your own decisions about what goes in your body you need your nanny-state to protect you from yourself. Too bad other fine upstanding Canadian citizens must suffer because of the weakness and cowardice of fools like you.

White Doors · January 17, 2008

thats a pile of shit. The us could have easily put a crimp in the seed business by arresting Marc's American customers. Nobody stateside has been charged for ORDERING the seeds. Marc has never set foot in the usa. Anyone in the world could order online seeds. There are hundreds of seed companies still operating, mostly in countries that have the balls to say no to the states however. Marc is no coward. You are a coward, too afraid to make your own decisions about what goes in your body you need your nanny-state to protect you from yourself. Too bad other fine upstanding Canadian citizens must suffer because of the weakness and cowardice of fools like you.

He sold only to Canadians for most of the time and then decided to sell to Americans will full knowledge of the potential repurcussions. I have no sympathy for him.

Wilber · January 17, 2008

thats a pile of shit. The us could have easily put a crimp in the seed business by arresting Marc's American customers. Nobody stateside has been charged for ORDERING the seeds. Marc has never set foot in the usa. Anyone in the world could order online seeds. There are hundreds of seed companies still operating, mostly in countries that have the balls to say no to the states however. Marc is no coward. You are a coward, too afraid to make your own decisions about what goes in your body you need your nanny-state to protect you from yourself. Too bad other fine upstanding Canadian citizens must suffer because of the weakness and cowardice of fools like you.

What he was doing is illegal in the US and he knew it. He was knowingly breaking their laws and using his Canadian citizenship and residency to do it. If he is so principled he should go face the music in that country.

M.Dancer · January 17, 2008

What he was doing is illegal in the US and he knew it. He was knowingly breaking their laws and using his Canadian citizenship and residency to do it. If he is so principled he should go face the music in that country.

I agree. He's no different than someone based in Montreal using the US postal service to commit mail fraud.

And Emery is completely beside the point of this thread. He's not going to Cuba, he will not be water boarded and he will not be tortured although hearing more drivel about him certainly is torturing

DrGreenthumb · January 17, 2008

He sold only to Canadians for most of the time and then decided to sell to Americans will full knowledge of the potential repurcussions. I have no sympathy for him.

Where do get that he sold to canadians exclusively most of the time? His seed desk and catalogue have always been open to orders from anywhwre in the world, not just Canada and the states. Marc never decided what countries could order, he had a canadian website and magazine that has always been open to everyone. He always gave fair warning that his products may be illegal in some countries, he left it up to his customers to decide if they were wiling to take the risk. Should we also extradite Canadians who use filesharing programs that an american might use to download a song? Even if the punishment there is ridiculous by our standards, say 30 years behind bars? How about Canadians who have a website that posts FTA satelite files? Even if in Canada it is considered grey market and will not likely lead to punishment? What if an american, knowing he is breaking the law signs up to the site and downloads a file that is considered illegal there? What if the punishment in Canada for hosting a site like that is a 200 dollar fine and in America they are seeking life in prison?

Just for a minute try to forget what Marc's product was, and all your biases that go with it. Why should we send our citizens to face long jail terms for things we do not send our own citizens to jail for? It would be different if he actually had business operations in the states, but he has never even been there. All business was conducted in this country.

the implications of this reach far beyond the pot community. How far should we go to please the American puritans?

M.Dancer · January 17, 2008

Should we also extradite Canadians who use filesharing programs that an american might use to download a song?

Yes

Wilber · January 17, 2008

How far should we go to please the American puritans?

Whether they are puritans or not is none of your business. Start by respecting their laws whether you agree with them or not. If you don't and it is an extraditable offence, don't be surprised if they come after you.

guyser · January 17, 2008

There is something that smells about this. I would guess Emery taunted them. I dont think he should be handed over since the reverse is not usually honoured, probably because we dont ask.

But, we could and should had over people who have, from our shores, caused injury to numerous americans who were duped. At least they were innocent, if not dumb, but the pot seeds were requested by the end user, so effectively there is no injury.

I am talking about boiler rooms duping yanks out of millions of dollars, and our govts (both of them) have never seen to it to put teeth in the law , much the same as no teeth in pot seed laws.

So to me, the injury suffered by people getting duped far outweighs anything Emery ever did.

Emery is like the idiots at the zoo two weeks ago....taunt taunt taunt...oops the tiger IS OUT!

It just smells , and frankly taunting or not, he should not be sent. If I were him Id book a nice holiday to Spain or Portugal. Has the feds froze his bank accounts?