DND Spending

[jdobbin]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071219/...ary_cargo_plane

e Defence Department's long-awaited and controversial purchase of the newest version of the Hercules transport plane has been approved by the federal Treasury Board, defence sources say.

A replacement for the air force's aging C-130E and C-130H fleets was first proposed in the summer of 2006 by former defence minister Gordon O'Connor.

Sources said the $4.6-billion purchase of 17 C-130Js received funding approval last Thursday, but a contract has yet to be signed with U.S. aircraft giant Lockheed Martin.

The in-service support portion of the deal will be the subject of further discussions, said one source familiar with the agreement.

Officials at National Defence declined comment, and it's unclear whether the federal cabinet needs to review the package again.

But in a year-end interview with The Canadian Press last week, Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier said he understood the cargo plane was in the final stages of approval.

Three of the older Hercules have already been retired after exceeding their flying life and "we'd like to put the other ones to bed as quickly as possible," Hillier said.

"With the old C-130s, we're spending more to keep them flying but their operational availability is going down."

We definitely need the new planes but there are so many unanswered question in regards to maintenance. Canada's aerospace industry is very wary about what it means to them.

[M.Dancer]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071219/...ary_cargo_plane

We definitely need the new planes but there are so many unanswered question in regards to maintenance. Canada's aerospace industry is very wary about what it means to them.

Of course Bombardier is worried. They are used to having carte blanche access to the gov't spending tit.

[Wilber]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/071219/...ary_cargo_plane

We definitely need the new planes but there are so many unanswered question in regards to maintenance. Canada's aerospace industry is very wary about what it means to them.

I already subsidize Bombardier. Do I have to buy their stuff to? Methinks it is only the Quebec part of the industry that is nervous.

[jdobbin]

Of course Bombardier is worried. They are used to having carte blanche access to the gov't spending tit.

I think Bombardier is confident. It is Bristol and Standard Aero who think they are going to be screwed by Fortier again.

[jdobbin]

I already subsidize Bombardier. Do I have to buy their stuff to? Methinks it is only the Quebec part of the industry that is nervous.

Quebec might be the only ones to do well with it. It could screw Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax and Winnipeg along with Toronto if Fortier has his way.

[M.Dancer]

Quebec might be the only ones to do well with it. It could screw Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax and Winnipeg along with Toronto if Fortier has his way.

I wasn't aware Bomabrdier had plants in those cities (excepting Winnipeg).

Seriously, Vancouver?

[Wilber]

I wasn't aware Bomabrdier had plants in those cities (excepting Winnipeg).

Seriously, Vancouver?

Cascade Aerospace in Abbotsford has been doing refits on the existing Hercs for awhile. Finally a military maintenance bone got thrown over the Rockies. Haven't yet seen anything in the local papers about them being concerned. Mind you they aren't used to government largess over here so they probably don't know the proper way to act in order to keep sucking on the tit. I think they got the contract because they offered the best value. Different what?

[M.Dancer]

Cascade Aerospace in Abbotsford has been doing refits on the existing Hercs for awhile. Finally a military maintenance bone got thrown over the Rockies. Haven't yet seen anything in the local papers about them being concerned. Mind you they aren't used to government largess over here so they probably don't know the proper way to act in order to keep sucking on the tit. I think they got the contract because they offered the best value. Different what?

Well, they won't be needed again for what? 20 years till the new Hercs need a refit.

[Wilber]

Well, they won't be needed again for what? 20 years till the new Hercs need a refit.

Not so, aside from the usual daily inspections, commercial airliners undergo monthly checks that take two days or more and yearly heavy maintenance checks that take two weeks or more. That's from new and the amount of maintenance required increases as the aircraft age. While the military probably won't average the same number of flying hours, the aircraft will be subject to more severe use than a civil aircraft. It will be a very lucrative contract for whoever gets it. Let the whining begin.

[M.Dancer]

Not so, aside from the usual daily inspections, commercial airliners undergo monthly checks that take two days or more and yearly heavy maintenance checks that take two weeks or more. That's from new and the amount of maintenance required increases as the aircraft age. While the military probably won't average the same number of flying hours, the aircraft will be subject to more severe use than a civil aircraft. It will be a very lucrative contract for whoever gets it. Let the whining begin.

And a lot of that daily maintenace is done on base by Air force crews....

[Wilber]

And a lot of that daily maintenace is done on base by Air force crews....

Almost all of it will but the heavy maintenance won't.

[jdobbin]

I wasn't aware Bomabrdier had plants in those cities (excepting Winnipeg).

Seriously, Vancouver?

Subcontracters. IMP in Halifax. I think the Abbotsford company is mentioned. I can't recall the Edmonton and Calgary companies but they are doing a lot of the high tech work in aerospace.

[jdobbin]

Looks like the submarine contract is going through but then so is the lawsuit.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080103/...enance_contract

Last summer, a Federal Court judge dismissed an attempt by the federal government to have the case thrown out of court.

A spokeswoman for Irving Shipbuilding said she wasn't aware that negotiations with CSMG had resumed and confirmed the lawsuit was still on track.

"We continue to believe the contract was awarded unfairly, contrary to applicable law,"said Mary Keith.

"There has been a preliminary exchange of information between legal counsels and the case is proceeding."

The contract has also been the subject of some intense, powerful backroom lobbying.

Longtime Tory heavyweight Fred Doucet was hired to plead the Irving's case to federal officials and politicians. Stephen Dover, of Capital Hill Group Inc., registered as a lobbyist on the file for Weir Canada Inc., one of the partners in CSMG.

The four mothballed diesel-electric submarines were purchased by Canada from the Royal Navy in the late 1990s for almost $900 million. They were built in Britain by BAE Systems in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but taken out of service when the British decided to go with an all-nuclear fleet.

Reactivating the submarines has proven to be a huge challenge for the navy, especially in the aftermath of a fatal fire aboard HMCS Chicoutimi in October 2004.

HMCS Corner Brook is the only submarine currently in service. HMCS Windsor and HMCS Victoria are undergoing repairs and upgrades.

The Chicoutimi is not scheduled to have its fire damage repaired until 2010 and is being used for spare parts.

Looks like we might be stuck paying for the stupid non-working subs and then for the lawsuit that the Tories have unsuccessfully tried to have tossed from the Federal court.

[M.Dancer]

Looks like the submarine contract is going through but then so is the lawsuit.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080103/...enance_contract

Looks like we might be stuck paying for the stupid non-working subs and then for the lawsuit that the Tories have unsuccessfully tried to have tossed from the Federal court.

Well we can thank the Liberals for that one. The deal at face value seemed good. Pretty much a barter deal. But in hind sight the french subs that the Conservatives wanted back in the mid 80s would probably been the better choice.

[jdobbin]

Well we can thank the Liberals for that one. The deal at face value seemed good. Pretty much a barter deal. But in hind sight the french subs that the Conservatives wanted back in the mid 80s would probably been the better choice.

I thought the submarine deal was ill advised. I believed we should have invested in a new class of destroyer for Canada instead.

As far the submarine plan that Mulroney toyed with. As soon as the U.S. indicated they were not in favour of it, the whole idea was cancelled in 1989.

http://www.empireclubfoundation.com/detail...3030&FT=yes

In 1987, when Brian Mulroney's defence minister sought nuclear-powered submarines to preserve Canada's sovereignty in the High Arctic, the Pentagon choked. Covered by Canada's peace movement and "taxfighters," Washington killed the project and kept control.

[bush_cheney2004]

As far the submarine plan that Mulroney toyed with. As soon as the U.S. indicated they were not in favour of it, the whole idea was cancelled in 1989.

Nice spin job...here is what really happened:

The United States initially expressed reservations about Ottawa's plans but became more supportive after an agreement last June on the traffic of American vessels through the Northwest Passage. The United States pledged that no American icebreakers would travel through the passage without Ottawa's express permission.

President Reagan promised Prime Minister Brian Mulroney last April that Washington would not block the transfer of American nuclear reactor technology for the submarines.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...757C0A96F948260

[jdobbin]

Irving Shipyards fight gets ugly.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080104/...enance_contract

Irving cried foul because Weir Canada Inc., one of the partners in CSMG, drew up initial plans for the contract's statement of work - something the Irving group says is a conflict of interest.

"We are not giving up," said Hudson.

"We are proceeding with our court action and believe our case is very strong. Almost one year ago we began our appeal to the federal government to re-issue the tender and undertake a fair and transparent process."

In the statement, Irving Shipbuilding accused officials at Public Works and Government Services Canada of trying "to coerce bidders into accepting the insider knowledge and competitive advantage of Weir Canada."

Bidders were told that if they objected to the process they would be disqualified, the company claimed.

A spokesman for Public Works Minister Michel Fortier wouldn't comment on the specific allegation, saying the matter is before the courts.

The government has lost two court cases over this already. They seem destined to lose it all and the taxpayer will be hit for more over these subs that can't fire torpedoes and will be out of commission indefinitely.

Tendering has to be a fair and open process and the Tory government can't seem to get that right.

[Argus]

Irving Shipyards fight gets ugly.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080104/...enance_contract

The government has lost two court cases over this already. They seem destined to lose it all and the taxpayer will be hit for more over these subs that can't fire torpedoes and will be out of commission indefinitely.

Tendering has to be a fair and open process and the Tory government can't seem to get that right.

These are the subs your party bought, right? The subs the Australians went and had a look at first, and then went home shaking their heads and laughing derisively?

[jdobbin]

These are the subs your party bought, right? The subs the Australians went and had a look at first, and then went home shaking their heads and laughing derisively?

Yup. I was dubious of the military pushing it as the deal of the century. I believed the government should have been preparing for a new class of anti-submarine destoyer.

And now the Tories have been swept up in all of this with the massive tender to get these useless subs in the water. Moreover, they are looking into a new sub purchase.

[M.Dancer]

These are the subs your party bought, right? The subs the Australians went and had a look at first, and then went home shaking their heads and laughing derisively?

Not surpised. These are big open water boats....not the kind of thing you want patrolling the mollocan straits.

Did they end up buying german or dutch?

[jdobbin]

Not surpised. These are big open water boats....not the kind of thing you want patrolling the mollocan straits.

Did they end up buying german or dutch?

The Australians built six of their own to replace their own Oberons.

They cost more than expected, the shipyard had some problems and the boats have been noisy and have not performed well at all.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not surpised. These are big open water boats....not the kind of thing you want patrolling the mollocan straits.

Did they end up buying german or dutch?

Collins Class...built down under by the Australian Submarine Corporation (ASC) with Kockums AD (Sweden?). Now executing a long term refit and overhaul contract, with help from General Dynamics - Electric Boat Division (USA), and other American kit.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/austra...upgrades-01488/

Edited January 6, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Yup. I was dubious of the military pushing it as the deal of the century. I believed the government should have been preparing for a new class of anti-submarine destoyer.

And now the Tories have been swept up in all of this with the massive tender to get these useless subs in the water. Moreover, they are looking into a new sub purchase.

I can still remember from the ex Argus guys I used to fly with. Question: How do you find a submarine? Answer: Just look for the column of smoke from the nearest burning destroyer.

[jdobbin]

I can still remember from the ex Argus guys I used to fly with. Question: How do you find a submarine? Answer: Just look for the column of smoke from the nearest burning destroyer.

The only way the Canadians ones could take out a destroyer is to collide with it. So far they are not seaworthy.

Given what I hear about the Australian ones, we might be lucky we haven't gone that route.

Edited January 6, 2008 by jdobbin

[Muddy]

Glad our forces are getting the new heavy lift aircraft no matter who gets the maintenance contracts. In todays modern military world we need to be stop hitch hiking.

The Sub deal with Britian was wrong from the start and we should admit it ,scrap the money holes now! If we are to have Subs,and I think we do then lets get a couple of Nukes from a reliable source so we can hold onto our soverienty in the Artic. We are going to lose it you know unless we act like big boys.