America Envy/Anti-Americanism - Whence it Came

[jazzer]

It is kind of ironic how those who are so tolerant of anything anyone else does are so critical/intolerant of anything the U.S. does.

So I take it then you would condone illegal invasions and bombings of other countries, and being continuously lied to by your government as okay. I am very critical and intolerant of any injustices, including those from our own governments, but that shouldn't be a partisan issue.

Edited January 13, 2008 by jazzer

[Guest American Woman]

So I take it then you would condone illegal invasions and bombings of other countries, and being continuously lied to by your government as okay. I am very critical and intolerant of any injustices, including those from our own governments, but that shouldn't be a partisan issue.

You take it wrong. There is some middle ground, you know. There is such a thing as being critical of actions that deserve criticism rather than being critical of "anything the U.S. does." Furthermore, as I said, some will defend/overlook/downplay the same action when others are engaging in it. Some consistancy would be appropriate.

Edited January 13, 2008 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

You take it wrong. There is some middle ground, you know. There is such a thing as being critical of actions that deserve criticism rather than being critical of "anything the U.S. does." Furthermore, as I said, some will defend/overlook/downplay the same action when others are engaging in it. Some consistancy would be appropriate.

For every 99 good things that are done only the one bad thing will be remembered. That's human nature. Sure we pick on the USA for all the bad things. It would be nice if we could pay more attention for the good they are doing domestically and abroad. But - I can't seem to find that one good thing. Mostly the "others" that are engaged in bad actions - always call big brother first to see if he will offer protection - that big brother or enforcer of the bad actions just happenes to be the formerly glorious United States Of America. There is only one thing that is consistant here is that America is consistantly acting like the tough older condoning brother that stands by the school yard fence as his smaller younger brother beats up the girls.

[jazzer]

You take it wrong. There is some middle ground, you know. There is such a thing as being critical of actions that deserve criticism rather than being critical of "anything the U.S. does." Furthermore, as I said, some will defend/overlook/downplay the same action when others are engaging in it. Some consistancy would be appropriate.

You kind of made it sound like the left have the problem with generalization. My point was that it's not about left or right, but about speaking out against injustice wherever and whenever it occurs regardless of political stripe. I don't know anyone that is critical of "anything the U.S. does" in my circle of friends and acquaintances. I think that attitude is severely overblown. Now if you're just referring to the actions of the Bush government, I might be willing to understand how people could arrive at that point of view.

Edited January 13, 2008 by jazzer

[ft.niagara]

For every 99 good things that are done only the one bad thing will be remembered. That's human nature. Sure we pick on the USA for all the bad things. It would be nice if we could pay more attention for the good they are doing domestically and abroad. But - I can't seem to find that one good thing. Mostly the "others" that are engaged in bad actions - always call big brother first to see if he will offer protection - that big brother or enforcer of the bad actions just happenes to be the formerly glorious United States Of America. There is only one thing that is consistant here is that America is consistantly acting like the tough older condoning brother that stands by the school yard fence as his smaller younger brother beats up the girls.

There alot of advantages in not being the big brother. Unfortunately, the European Wars changed some of that for the United States. If the US becomes more isolationist, as may happen, or is destroyed, it will be interesting to see whether the world will be better or worse off for it.

My impression is that Oleg Bach is an America basher who revels in dissing the United States. Below are some speculatiions as to a world without the US, and such a world would not necessarily bode well for Canada.

Until now, he world has historically had a "most powerful nation". Before the US, it was Britain, before Britain it was perhaps France, before France, perhaps Rome. It has been within the Europe/North America club, but it was not Asia. One can only wonder if Oleg Bach would be more or less critical of a world dominated by Russia, India/Pakastan. or China/Japan. Who knows, perhaps he may get to find out.

Here a few speculations on a world without the US:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/...ut_america.html

http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/feedback/...-2004/6693-us-0

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6613861.stm

[ft.niagara]

Now if you're just referring to the actions of the Bush government, I might be willing to understand how people could arrive at that point of view.

I do not agree with the "actions of the Bush government" jab. What actions have been so horendous? World events have shaped his Presidency. There was 911, and there was anthrax. In response to that there was Afghanistan, and Iraq. As President, he was responsable to respond, he responded. Once in Iraq, and no WMDs have been found, the only reqestion remaining is when to leave. Obviously, there are differing opinions. Following the Afghan War, we were criticized for leaving too soon. After the first Gulf War, the US was criticized for not supporting the opposition to Sadam. You can not have it both ways, criticize for failure to act, and then criticize action. It just seems there alot of back seat drivers in the world.

Edited January 13, 2008 by ft.niagara

[ft.niagara]

Canada will be the great doctor and peace maker internationally - we are now the light of the world where the Americans have had their day and are not the light stand..thanks and good nite my friend.

Oleg Bach has gone to bed. He had a long day. I checked the top 20 posters, and he was tops with 54 posts for the DAY. Now that Americans have had their day, I for one will cheerlead the Canadians as they heal the world.

[Guest American Woman]

You kind of made it sound like the left have the problem with generalization. My point was that it's not about left or right, but about speaking out against injustice wherever and whenever it occurs regardless of political stripe. I don't know anyone that is critical of "anything the U.S. does" in my circle of friends and acquaintances. I think that attitude is severely overblown. Now if you're just referring to the actions of the Bush government, I might be willing to understand how people could arrive at that point of view.

I was responding to posts that were about anti-Americanism and whether it came from the left or the right, so I was referring to "anti-Americanism" in my response, not "speaking out against injustice," which are two very different things. There are people who are anti-American, just as there are those who are anti-Islamic, or anti-whatever. So I was referring to the U.S. as a whole, not just the government but Americans, too; and I was referring to those who will cut down the U.S./Americans for anything and everything, even as they overlook/defend the same things in others. I see that coming from the left. Again, and I want to make sure this is clear, I'm not saying that it's a trait of the left; just that I find that those who are anti-American generally come from the left.

Edited January 13, 2008 by American Woman

[Carinthia]

I see that coming from the left. Again, and I want to make sure this is clear, I'm not saying that it's a trait of the left; just that I find that those who are anti-American generally come from the left.

Guess it would depend where you live. I work within the business community in my small town. Many of the people I speak with on a daily basis are right wing and the sentiment is anti American from the standpoint of the Iraq War and the Bush/Cheney junta.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Carinthia

[Guest American Woman]

Guess it would depend where you live. I work within the business community in my small town. Many of the people I speak with on a daily basis are right wing and the sentiment is anti American from the standpoint of the Iraq War and the Bush/Cheney junta.

Are they anti-American-- or are they anti-Bush/anti-Iraq war? Because those are two very different things.

When I refer to anti-Americans, I'm referring to those who say Americans are the dumbest/fattest people on the planet, that we have no morals, we are materialistic, stupid for believing in God, uncaring about anyone but ourselves, violent, etc. I'm referring to people who are more than happy to tell me that they would never travel to the U.S. (I couldn't care less where they travel). People who get down on Americans for something as insignificant as calling the World Series the World Series (because it's not "the world")-- people who are just plain anti-American. If we get involed in something in another country, we should keep our nose out of it. If we don't get involved, we are uncaring about anyone other than ourselves. And it seems as if it's people on the left who feel this way.

So those who don't agree with Bush and the Iraq war can be anti-Bush/anti-war without being anti-American. I'm anti-Bush/anti-war myself. But if people can't separate that from "Americans" and "the United States," then I think that's wrong. I think the criticism should just be directed where it's deserved.

[Carinthia]

Are they anti-American-- or are they anti-Bush/anti-Iraq war? Because those are two very different things.

When I refer to anti-Americans, I'm referring to those who say Americans are the dumbest/fattest people on the planet, that we have no morals, we are materialistic, stupid for believing in God, uncaring about anyone but ourselves, violent, etc. I'm referring to people who are more than happy to tell me that they would never travel to the U.S. (I couldn't care less where they travel). People who get down on Americans for something as insignificant as calling the World Series the World Series (because it's not "the world")-- people who are just plain anti-American. If we get involed in something in another country, we should keep our nose out of it. If we don't get involved, we are uncaring about anyone other than ourselves. And it seems as if it's people on the left who feel this way.

So those who don't agree with Bush and the Iraq war can be anti-Bush/anti-war without being anti-American. I'm anti-Bush/anti-war myself. But if people can't separate that from "Americans" and "the United States," then I think that's wrong. I think the criticism should just be directed where it's deserved.

Most of the folks I talk to are anti Bush/Cheney and they are from both sides. I have heard the anti American (rarely) theme as well and to tell you the truth, I did not give much thought as to the their political leanings. I will take notice of that in the future. Actually, from my experience on this subject with people here, I have heard little true anti American sentiments. Jokes yes, but nothing that I would call seriously hating Americans in general. Hell, as it's so cold here, most of the people I know, take their vacations in the winter and head off to the States for a month. As well, the big retirement dream here is to buy up that big RV and "travel all over the States". Hear it all the time.

[jbg]

I don't know anyone who does that, but I suppose it's common in the circles he runs in. Perhaps it's a sense of material and power envy from those on the Canadian right at America's greater overall success.

The very first Canadians I spent time with (a weekend in a high-school band exchange program) told me that most Canadians did not like Americans much. And this was in April 1973.

[Guest American Woman]

Most of the folks I talk to are anti Bush/Cheney and they are from both sides. I have heard the anti American (rarely) theme as well and to tell you the truth, I did not give much thought as to the their political leanings. I will take notice of that in the future. Actually, from my experience on this subject with people here, I have heard little true anti American sentiments. Jokes yes, but nothing that I would call seriously hating Americans in general. Hell, as it's so cold here, most of the people I know, take their vacations in the winter and head off to the States for a month. As well, the big retirement dream here is to buy up that big RV and "travel all over the States". Hear it all the time.

Being against Bush and the war definitely isn't exclusive to one party/one political side. It's all encompassing, no doubt about that. There is some anti-American sentiment on this board though, but I won't name names. As for that retirement dream you mention, I'd love to travel all over Canada. Hopefully some day I will.

The very first Canadians I spent time with (a weekend in a high-school band exchange program) told me that most Canadians did not like Americans much. And this was in April 1973.

I think the Vietnam war raised some anti-American sentiment at that time.

Edited January 14, 2008 by American Woman

[jbg]

I think the Vietnam war raised some anti-American sentiment at that time.

Before that it was the AVRO, before that the US's delayed entry into WW II and pressure to accept more Jewish refugees, and before that the fight over Pig Island near Puget Sound, and before that.....and before that the Fenian Raids.

It's frankly more like sibling rivalry.

[Sulaco]

Before that it was the AVRO, before that the US's delayed entry into WW II and pressure to accept more Jewish refugees, and before that the fight over Pig Island near Puget Sound, and before that.....and before that the Fenian Raids.

It's frankly more like sibling rivalry.

Lived in Canada for 11 years. Before Bush Jr.'s time. Bush Sr. and Clinton era. The US was smugly disliked at that time. Canadian teachers had no problems showing that dislike - it extended to many aspects of the US and was often based on misinformation. Bush is a nice excuse to dislike the US today. But once he is gone it will be same as it was before he came. The US will be disliked but Canucks will not be able to say it's just Bush they hate.

Nothing much changes. But I guess Bush provides nice cover.

[M.Dancer]

My only beefs with the US is the inability to get vinegar for fries and HP sauce for eggs in restaurants.

But if I ever won $15 Million CND, there's this little gated community on the gulf coast I would spend the winters at.

[guyser]

But if I ever won $15 Million CND, there's this little gated community on the gulf coast I would spend the winters at.

Gitmo ? ....or is it not on the Gulf....

[M.Dancer]

Gitmo ? ....or is it not on the Gulf....

No that's in the caribean.....Boca Grande on Gasperilla Island....

But truth be told, I wouldn't want to live in the states unless I had 15 million. I got offered a job in NYC about 6 years ago. The pay and bonus were about 25% more than what I do now. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to afford to house a family in Manhatten...when I say to the owner that I couldn't afford to live there, he says no families can, that his family lives in Forest Hills (coincidence). Still, life is too short to spend 2 hours a day commuting. If I can't walk to work book me a hotel....

[jbg]

No that's in the caribean.....Boca Grande on Gasperilla Island....

But truth be told, I wouldn't want to live in the states unless I had 15 million. I got offered a job in NYC about 6 years ago. The pay and bonus were about 25% more than what I do now. Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to afford to house a family in Manhatten...when I say to the owner that I couldn't afford to live there, he says no families can, that his family lives in Forest Hills (coincidence). Still, life is too short to spend 2 hours a day commuting. If I can't walk to work book me a hotel....

The commute by commuter rail to much of Westchester County is about 35 minutes, and you can sleep on the ride.

Come on down.

[M.Dancer]

The commute by commuter rail to much of Westchester County is about 35 minutes, and you can sleep on the ride.

Come on down.

If I could afford to live in westchester, I could afford to live in Manhatten.....I get an allegic reaction to suburbia....

[BubberMiley]

The very first Canadians I spent time with (a weekend in a high-school band exchange program) told me that most Canadians did not like Americans much. And this was in April 1973.

Sounds like a rather informal poll to me. Most Canadians can barely distinguish between themselves and the average American. I certainly don't feel a stronger cultural distinction between a Manitoban and a Minnesotan than between a Manitoban and a Newfoundlander. Kind of the opposite really.

[jbg]

Sounds like a rather informal poll to me. Most Canadians can barely distinguish between themselves and the average American. I certainly don't feel a stronger cultural distinction between a Manitoban and a Minnesotan than between a Manitoban and a Newfoundlander. Kind of the opposite really.

I didn't exactly walk around asking other hosts' parents what they thought of the US and my hosts professed to be quite US-friendly. Since they were educated people I take at face value their evaluation of overall sentiment, at least in Toronto. The bookstore proprietor I talked to on, I believe, Yonge Street (is there such a street? I have a very bad memory) had similar observations.