Why is Israel the biggest terrorist state in the world?

DogOnPorch · December 10, 2007

If I'm not mistaken, the St. Louis sailing was during 1940. Shame on Canada and the US for that!!!

May-June, 1939

----------------------------------

I saw how he killed two workers, whom he has selected for work, because they did not understand his instructions properly. They could not speak German properly.

---Moshe Bahir, Sobibor Survivor refering to Oberscharfuhrer-SS Gustav Wagner

kengs333 · December 10, 2007

An excerpt from your first link makes the point beautifully:
The Germans most heavily impacted would have been Jewish. Jews were still getting out. If I'm not mistaken, the St. Louis sailing was during 1940. Shame on Canada and the US for that!!!

This actually occured in 1939, before the war. But whatever the case, I don't see why any country should be obliged to taken in any boatload of refugees, regardless of who they are, when they simply show up off the coast wanting to get in. I don't think that anyone really knew what was going to happen in Europe at that time, just how bad things were going to get.

capricorn · December 10, 2007

This actually occured in 1939, before the war.

kengs, Canada declared war on Germany on September 10, 1939 after the declaration of war by other countries. Canadian authorities were well aware of the developments in Europe so their action/inaction in the summer of 1939 with regard to the St. Louis is no excuse. What I accuse the Canadian government of the day is that they did not inform the population of the situation in Europe. They were too concerned with trying to appease the opposing forces within the Canadian public on the merits of the war because they wanted to retain their popularity with both groups.

http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/dates.html

But whatever the case, I don't see why any country should be obliged to taken in any boatload of refugees, regardless of who they are, when they simply show up off the coast wanting to get in.

Some countries had citizens who had a heart and a conscience, such as Canadians, and they cared about their fellow human beings, especially when they were escaping persecution and certain death. I'm certain this sentiment is alive today among Canadians.

I don't think that anyone really knew what was going to happen in Europe at that time, just how bad things were going to get.

And neither do you since you weren't around at that time. Again, I maintain our government knew but kept silent. jbg's right, it's a blot on our history.

DogOnPorch · December 10, 2007

But whatever the case, I don't see why any country should be obliged to taken in any boatload of refugees, regardless of who they are, when they simply show up off the coast wanting to get in.

Expensive visas for both the USA and Cuba were held by the passengers. It was just that the US had reached it's 'quota' for 1939...so the plan was for the Jews to wait in Cuba until the 1940 immigrants were allowed in. The Cuban government, at the time, blackmailed the passengers who couldn't afford any more 'fees'. So back to Europe the St Loius went. France, Holland, Belgium and the UK ended up taking the passengers at the last minute. Only those dropped off in Britain and a lucky few of those dropped off in continental Europe escaped the camps after the Germans invaded France and the Lowlands in May 1940.

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We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...

kengs333 · December 10, 2007

kengs, Canada declared war on Germany on September 10, 1939 after the declaration of war by other countries. Canadian authorities were well aware of the developments in Europe so their action/inaction in the summer of 1939 with regard to the St. Louis is no excuse. What I accuse the Canadian government of the day is that they did not inform the population of the situation in Europe. They were too concerned with trying to appease the opposing forces within the Canadian public on the merits of the war because they wanted to retain their popularity with both groups.
http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/dates.html

Well, I think it was fairly well known that the Nazi regime didn't hold Jews in high regard, but if you're trying to tell me that the Canadian government was fully aware of what was being discussed amongst the high-ranking members of the German government, then you're wrong. Nor can the Canadian government know what the Nazis were going to cook up in the coming years, nor how brutal and sweeping it would be. It's convenient to make arguments about what was known at the time in hindsight, and to twist it to suit one's critique of history.

Exactly how many places in this world are controlled by oppriessive regimes? Can you tell me jus what is happening in each, how many people are being tortured and killed, who they are, where exactly it's taking place, how it's being done, and where they are being disposed of? If you do, how do you know if the information is accurate and reliable? Why isn't Canada intervening in any of these problems--is that not a blot on Canada's history, too?--and what are you personally doing to stop it?

Some countries had citizens who had a heart and a conscience, such as Canadians, and they cared about their fellow human beings, especially when they were escaping persecution and certain death. I'm certain this sentiment is alive today among Canadians.

They may have been escaping persecution, but it wasn't all that clear that "certain death" was part of the equation at this time; remember, the Nazis were shipping people off to Palestine, and they had allowed Jews to leave so that they could go somewhere else; if they wanted them all dead at that time, why would this have been going on? Moreover, if I recall correctly, the camp that visiting dignitaries were being shown was a "model" camp that impressed and fooled many people into believing that the Germans weren't mistreating the Jews as badly as was being rumoured. The Nazis were masters of propaganda--and this is no more clearer in the fact that they managed to fool many people outside of Germany, as well.

And neither do you since you weren't around at that time. Again, I maintain our government knew but kept silent. jbg's right, it's a blot on our history.

And no doubt in sixty years something that's been going on recently will be the subject of criticism by people who consider it a "blot on" Canada's history for not having what hindsight suggests would have been the best course of action.

Rue · December 10, 2007

What apology did I ask for?

None. I am speaking figuratively. If I am not mistaken I did you grief once for the same thing I am probably exhibiting with Keng. Just trying to tell you I remember that! I must say though JBG dealing with this issue with certain posters is like lancing a boil on one's buttox. The more one tries to drain it the more it excudes its substance for the world to share. Its amazing how much pent up poison there is that flows.

By the way my "not caring" anaology didn't mean to sound as depressing as it was. I was referring to a portion of today's generation that hasn't a clue about history and I doubt will never make an effort to find out preferring instead to be incited by the hatred of certain people and hate lines.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Rue

jbg · December 10, 2007

I remember that! I must say though JBG dealing with this issue with certain posters is like lancing a boil on one's buttox. The more one tries to drain it the more it excudes its substance for the world to share. Its amazing how much pent up poison there is that flows.

No question. For a short time, roughly 20 years after WW II Jew hatred became politically incorrect, much as "homophobia" is now.

The problem is that the root causes of Jew hatred, i.e. that the Jews are both a nation and a religion, and live among the majority peoples, remains. Most of the "majority" people are fine with that. Some aren't.

Rue · December 10, 2007

JBG you specifically asked me for references as to McKenzie King-for his comments as to Jews being vermin and infectious and undesireable you need only to go to exerpts from his diaries.

Here is an exerpt as to his activities at;

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/history.html

and I quote to passages from the article;

" A SUMMARY OF ANTI-SEMITISM

by Alan Lazerte, B.A., LL.B

I stand here as a Canadian today to ashamedly tell you that Canada is directly implicated in the deaths of thousands of Jews in the Holocaust; and I will prove that to you. Time marches on and so did Hitler. People were in the concentration camps; some had escaped; the word was out about what was going on; people couldn't believe it; the Jews themselves couldn't believe that humans could become such barbarians as what the escapees were reporting was being done in these camps. So what happened? Well if the free nations of the West had known that the Jewish people were marked for annihilation we would have intervened wouldn't we? Well then why are we not told in our history books about a convention that Roosevelt of the United States called in 1938 in Europe? All of the Western nations were invited. McKenzie King didn't want to send a Canadian delegation at all. His diaries reveal is rabid anti-Semitism. Actually Canada was finally intimidated into sending a delegation because it was said to him by his advisors: "Mr. Prime Minister, it wouldn't_t look very good for Canada if Canada and Fascist Italy were the only two nations not to go." So McKenzie King said to his bureaucrats: "All right we will attend, but don't make any promises or commitments. Don't say anything, just listen."

Unfortunately for the Jewish people, and unfortunately for Canada, the head of Canada's Immigration Department for thirty-five years, (during the most important years from 1933 when Hitler rose to power through 1948 when the state of Israel was reborn), was also a rabid anti-Semitic Christian who went to church every Sunday. His name was Blair. He bragged that he consistently kept the Jews out of this country. "

Here are my other sources you may find of interest and they socument what Dog and Cap stated

and in fact show once again Keng is just shooting off at the mouth trying to rationalize himself:

http://www.ceris.metropolis.net/oldvl/other/wayland1e.html

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/non2many.html

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/voyage.html

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=...uG&b=395017

http://www.utoronto.ca/mcis/antisemitism/Mulroney.htm

(this is a speech from Brian Mulroney on antti-semitism discussing McKenzie-King's role)

http://www.umanitoba.ca/outreach/cm/vol12/...turnedaway.html

http://www.utoronto.ca/mcis/antisemitism/Mulroney.htm

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiho...n/chapter3.html

(yes there are Christians who unlike Keng have a different take on the matter as you will see from the above web-site)

I also thought I would include another Christian's comments you can find at ;

http://www.metaball.ca/2007/ball_Feb-07/0207_06.html:

"I've heard people say, "Well, what's so special about the Holocaust?" The Turks tried to get rid of the Armenians, the Hutus tried to get rid of the Tutsis. There've been lots of "holocausts!"

Not true! The murder of six million Jews was the public policy of a Christian country called Germany. It was enshrined in the constitution of Germany's National Socialist government. And that same public policy was supported by most of the rest of Christendom, if not in writing at least with tacit approval even when we all knew what was happening to the Jews. The Holocaust happened because of 2,000 years of Christian persecution of the Jews. Hitler felt justified in what he did because he knew that no Christian nation would try to stop him, and he was right. That's what makes the Holocaust unique. No other "ethnic cleansing" was the public policy of a "civilized" Christian nation supported by the greater part of world-wide Christendom. There was only one Holocaust.

So, this year, on January 27, we marked the 62nd anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, and we remember, not just the liberation of Auschwitz, but also the fact that Christians were its cause. We say to ourselves, "We cannot, we dare not forget Auschwitz, because we know that it could happen again. We Christians need to take responsibility for Auschwitz, and promise God that it will never happen again." If what I say about Christian responsibility for the Holocaust

is true, then how can I remain a Christian? Easy answer! It's because I know that the cruel, unjust way in which Christians have treated the Jews over the millennia is not true Christianity.

The Holocaust is not what Jesus taught. The Holocaust is not the love that Jesus commanded us to have for our neighbours. "

I would imagine Keng would say this person is not a true Christian.

jbg · December 10, 2007

If what I say about Christian responsibility for the Holocaust is true, then how can I remain a Christian? Easy answer! It's because I know that the cruel, unjust way in which Christians have treated the Jews over the millennia is not true Christianity. The Holocaust is not what Jesus taught. The Holocaust is not the love that Jesus commanded us to have for our neighbours. "
I would imagine Keng would say this person is not a true Christian.

Beautiful speech and beautiful addition to this Board. Thanks, Rue.

kengs333 · December 10, 2007

Not true! The murder of six million Jews was the public policy of a Christian country called Germany.

Nazi ideology was not based on Christianity, although they may have twisted and then incorporated some elements of Christianity--largely derived from the Old Testament--in order to make themselves more palatible to the German people. Again, as I said, the Nazis were master propagandists, and they fooled many people into following them. Many intellectuals who initially supported them prior to 1933 later did not because the true nature of the regime became increasingly evident after they took power. But by that time it was already too late because the Nazis were quick to consolidate power and eliminate any political rivals that could pose a problem. Much of this went unnoticed by the German people just as what happens behind closed doors in Canadian politics goes unnoticed, and we have a much freer media than the Germans had access to.

It's unfortunate that you have to make such hyperbolic statements that misrepresent my faith; of sourse were I to do the same about you, you would go hysterical with accusations of antisemitism and I probably would end up being banned. But what you are doing is, of course, nothing new, and really just does little more than the confirm things. Sad that you have to be that way, but I guess that's just the way it is.

From Wikipedia article on "Christian Zionism" (emphasis mine):

Christian Zionism, as a specifically theological belief, does not necessarily entail sympathy for the Jews as a nation or for Judaism as a religion. Since the biblical text is filled with references to God's chosen people, it is common for Christian Zionists to emphasize the Jewish roots of Christianity, and even to promote Jewish practices and Hebrew terminology as part of their own practice; however, Christian Zionists commonly believe that to fulfill prophecy, a significant number of Jews will accept Jesus as their Messiah, and that in the last days, such Messianic Jews will practice a thoroughly Hebraic form of Christianity.

Edited December 11, 2007 by kengs333

Oleg Bach · December 11, 2007

Nazi ideology was not based on Christianity, although they may have twisted and then incorporated some elements of Christianity--largely derived from the Old Testament--in order to make themselves more palatible to the German people. Again, as I said, the Nazis were master propagandists, and they fooled many people into following them. Many intellectuals who initially supported them prior to 1933 later did not because the true nature of the regime became increasingly evident after they took power. But by that time it was already too late because the Nazis were quick to consolidate power and eliminate any political rivals that could pose a problem. Much of this went unnoticed by the German people just as what happens behind closed doors in Canadian politics goes unnoticed, and we have a much freer media than the Germans had access to.
It's unfortunate that you have to make such hyperbolic statements that misrepresent my faith; of sourse were I to do the same about you, you would go hysterical with accusations of antisemitism and I probably would end up being banned. But what you are doing is, of course, nothing new, and really just does little more than the confirm things. Sad that you have to be that way, but I guess that's just the way it is.

From Wikipedia article on "Christian Zionism" (emphasis mine):

Money laundering - weapons = cash for some.

Sulaco · December 11, 2007

Nazi ideology was not based on Christianity, although they may have twisted and then incorporated some elements of Christianity--largely derived from the Old Testament--in order to make themselves more palatible to the German people. Again, as I said, the Nazis were master propagandists, and they fooled many people into following them. Many intellectuals who initially supported them prior to 1933 later did not because the true nature of the regime became increasingly evident after they took power. But by that time it was already too late because the Nazis were quick to consolidate power and eliminate any political rivals that could pose a problem. Much of this went unnoticed by the German people just as what happens behind closed doors in Canadian politics goes unnoticed, and we have a much freer media than the Germans had access to.
It's unfortunate that you have to make such hyperbolic statements that misrepresent my faith; of sourse were I to do the same about you, you would go hysterical with accusations of antisemitism and I probably would end up being banned. But what you are doing is, of course, nothing new, and really just does little more than the confirm things. Sad that you have to be that way, but I guess that's just the way it is.

From Wikipedia article on "Christian Zionism" (emphasis mine):

Ok - I hate these stupid your religions murdered this many people games. Generally they are simlistic gobbets of dung we fling at each other., On a deeper level, however, when carried out in more sober fashion, the inquiry can be enlightening. The fact is Germany - regardless of what the Nazi's believed - was predominantlyu christian and catholic. The German people stood by or assisted Nazi faithful, as these carried out the mass slaughter. While Nazi ideology was pseudo-christian most Germans, as most people usually, did not bnuy into the whole of it, and even more so into the more cultish aspects fostered by the SS. Rather they remained Christian, though not vigilant for the suffering of their fellow men.

Basically most Germans remained human. But there is no question that the holocaust can be said to have been perpetrated by a Christian nation.

Oleg Bach · December 11, 2007

Ok - I hate these stupid your religions murdered this many people games. Generally they are simlistic gobbets of dung we fling at each other., On a deeper level, however, when carried out in more sober fashion, the inquiry can be enlightening. The fact is Germany - regardless of what the Nazi's believed - was predominantlyu christian and catholic. The German people stood by or assisted Nazi faithful, as these carried out the mass slaughter. While Nazi ideology was pseudo-christian most Germans, as most people usually, did not bnuy into the whole of it, and even more so into the more cultish aspects fostered by the SS. Rather they remained Christian, though not vigilant for the suffering of their fellow men.
Basically most Germans remained human. But there is no question that the holocaust can be said to have been perpetrated by a Christian nation.

There are no Christians - the movement was wipe out by the state - by Rome and utlized as a political tool of control - Christianity died with it's founder and was never allowed to bloom - so you can forget that holocaust blame game-- humans are holocaused as we speak all over the world. Nothing has changed. The Germans and their advisors were but occultist nuts - as far as Israel is concerned at present - it is a secualarist gangster state run by anglos..the poor Jews and Christians have been driven out - those that still adhere to good religion are but silenced prisoners - Israel is just a colonial out post that belongs to the Queen...sorry - your majesty - but the holy estate is far from holy. Muslims are now the new Jews and the objects of hate that stimulates war for profit...when the whole thing turns to craps the mishandlers of the system will point at religion - when all the while it was them who screwed up - the jews were used - and the muslims are being used..those in authority to not believe in goodness or God - they are faking it. All of our religious leaders are pawns of the state - all are atheists who moblized religious fanatics at will...to do their dirty bidding. I have seen no evidence of goodness in Christian - Jewish or Islamic leaders - only evil.

Rue · December 11, 2007

Angus I fully agree. To this day I cannot make sense of the Canadian government's actions at that time. I do know that during the second war and for a period afterward, there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in Quebec, notably in Montreal. This too seems to be downplayed. Sanitizing our history does no one any favours.
As a Canadian, I apologize to the Jewish people for this undeserved mistreatment.

I as just re-reading this Cap. I didn't notice it the first time. I am one of those people that feels if we can learn from past mistakes to be better for it, then its all good. I appreciate your saying that but it embarasses me. I would not expect it nor ask for it but its gracious of you to say that.

I prefer to remeber not Mckenzie King or Immigration Minister Blair or the vicious anti-semites in Quebec at that time, but the brave Canadians who died fighting Hitler. When all is said and done as a Jew I am damn proud to be a Canadian for what brave Canadians did in WW2 and the fact my father was a proud Canadian in the air force and then army as were many Jews who always put Canada first and always will.

I am also damn proud of the way Canada's peacekeeping forces under Lester Pearson acted in the Sinai and Golan and Israelis will always admire the genuine professionality and neutrality of the Canadian soldiers. Israelis and Palestinians and Muslims were treated exactly the same way by Canadian forces when they were in the Sinai and Golan. You will hear no one suggest otherwise or have anything negative to say about the Canadian Armed Forces when it served in the Middle East.

The shit parts that happened to us or the Irish or Dhoukabors, or Ukrainians or Sieks or Chinese or Japanese, etc., is part of our past and present and what hopefully will make us better by learning from our mistakes and still needs to be learned as we still have a long way to go with the original Canadians who I would imagine think we are all equally as f..ng insane anyways.

My ancestors could only dream of the freedom I simply take for granted in Canada. For that I am very grateful and I think a lot of that has to do with the British parliamentary system we inherited. It may have warts, and to be honest has not lived up to its capacity with our native peoples but it has enabled us to work on our warts without killing each other (appreciating for a second that can not be said for certain historic events with our native peoples) and I have no doubt it will prevail and take the hatred and turn into positive visions for the future.

I just wanted to say that because I am proud to be Canadian.

Rue · December 11, 2007

It's unfortunate that you have to make such hyperbolic statements that misrepresent my faith;

So just what is your faith Keng. You claimed you are a Christian and a member of a denomination that has taught you everything you state, and yet when asked to provide a source for your Christian beliefs, i.e., the name of your sect, you refuse. So how does one misrepresent your faith when you will not state what it is other then to refer to yourself as a “true Christian” and dismiss everyone including Christians as non believers who persecute you? You have never stated what your beliefs are in fact, all you have done is to state everyone else is going to hell or is persecuting you.

Before you accuse anyone of misrepresenting your faith have the honesty to state what it is. Until you do Keng you are simply a charlatan hiding behind cryptic references to claiming you are a Christian.

Now you claim I misrepresent you Keng, how about we go back then and tell me which one of your passages I have misquoted or misrepresented in your latest exercise, how about we start with your two statements where you question whether Jews were killed in the holocaust:

“…even the Gestapo cooperated with Zionists in getting Jews to Palestine. If they wanted to exterminate Jews, why do that? Post 84”

“remember, the Nazis were shipping people off to Palestine, and they had allowed Jews to leave so that they could go somewhere else; if they wanted them all dead at that time, why would this have been going on?” Post 130

You denied saying the first statement and then repeated the questioning of the holocaust the second time, here again are your words denying what you said above;

“nowhere did I "suggest" that the Nazis "did not exterminate Jews". Post 93”

This is what you do Keng, You make deliberately hateful comments designed to incite, then when challenged and called on them, play the victim and deny you stated them only you have done this so many times Keng in so many posts its worn thin Keng and I doubt even those people who gave you the benefit of the doubt at one point do anymore.

Or how about this denial you issued three times;

Again, I haven't denied or "dismiss[ed]" the mass killing of Jews and other "undesireables".

(repeated 3 times in post 93)

Not only does it evidence you repeat the same misrepresentation over and over trying to deny what you said-showing a deliberate pattern of denial, but you referred to Jews as undesireables three times. Some people would say you just do not know how to write its simply am abiguous reference. I say really? How does a man who repeatedly denies what he said 4 times do so innocently without thinking through his words? Think its an innocent mistake? I leave that to other readers to decide. I find your repeated denial disturbing for two reasons, I-you try deny what you said, ii-you refer to Jews as undesireables because you genuinely believe they were.

Do I misrepresent your faith because I call you a hate monger? Really? Read what you said:

“Excluding non-believers is not "discriminatory" from Christian communities; non-believers will only try to undermine and corrupt Christianity, and that's exactly what has been happening for some time now. That's exactly what you're doing…..the NT makes it clear who's really right and who's really wrong…post 93”

According to your faith Keng which you claim to is Christian it gives you the right to stop anyone from coming to Canada who does not share your views-and then you say that is not discriminatory! Tell me Keng how is excluding people who do not follow your version of what you think is true “wrong’ let alone “anti-Christian”?

It is precisely for the above comment I say you are a hate monger who uses the pretence of Christian religion to hate people and discriminate against them and justify your hatred.

So I misrepresent your faith Keng…how about this comment from you:

“Incidently, many Christians were killed by the Nazis, and along with other non-Jewish victims of the Nazi regime, probably numbered in the millions. Sad to say that I have often heard Jews only refer to only the Jewish victims of Nazism. I suppose that could be construed as an "insult" in a way, don't you think? “Post 93

You stated the above comment to taunt Jews about the holocaust and suggest we insult Christians when we talk of the holocaust. That Sir makes you someone who taunts. Its transparent and it shows the part of you we first saw when you repeatedly tried to call all gays pedophiles and then deny you did. You taunt Keng and people who taunt do so because they feel the need to put others down. Why else did you ask this question Keng? Do try play the victim some more and tell us what you really meant when you suggested Jews insult Christians the way we talk about the holocaust.

Here you are coming on this board to deny the holocaust and rationalize what Nazis did and then you play the victim and accuse Jews of victimizing Christians over the holocaust?

So tell me Keng. What words above did I misquote or misunderstood?

How about this one Keng:

“It's pretty arrogant to suggest that somehow despite the fact of Israel was created, that everyone should just live in peace and leave Israel alone “ – post 82

So now you find it arrogant because people would want to live in peace and just be left alone? That is arrogance? You consider someone who wants be peaceful arrogant? So tell me Keng what have I misquoted. You Keng are now stating people who want peace are arrogant. Does anyone in their right mind believe a Christian would call a person who wants peace arrogant? Does anyone believe that is a Christian precept?

Speaking of arrogant Keng these are your words from post 97;

“And you obviously need a good lesson in the history of Germany. Sadly it appears that you can't discuss the issue without anti-this and anti-that.”

You lectured another poster with deliberately patronizing and condescending words and then proceeded to do exactly what you criticizedhim for, and something you have done in each and every post you have responded with (criticize someone for doing something, and then doing the exact same thing in the next sentence!)

here are your words Keng, where you e ngage in anti-this and anti-that:

“Jews weren't allowed into the country from 1940-1945 because there was a war on.” Post 96

“..don't see why any country should be obliged to taken in any boatload of refugees, regardless of who they are, when they simply show up off the coast wanting to get in.” post 127

“…but if you're trying to tell me that the Canadian government was fully aware of what was being discussed amongst the high-ranking members of the German government, then you're wrong. Nor can the Canadian government know what the Nazis were going to cook up in the coming years, nor how brutal and sweeping it would be. It's convenient to make arguments about what was known at the time in hindsight, and to twist it to suit one's critique of history. “–post 130

Tell me Keng what in the above comments from you or any comments you have ever made have been referenced to a source to prove they are anything but you fabricating subjective opinions and trying to make them sound valid when all they are is designed to simply be anti anything being told to you from posted sources?

You finally provided one source Keng and you did exactly what I warned readers you would do, remove the information out of context without reading it. Had you read the agreement you were quoting Keng and reserached it, you would realize it proves the exact opposite of what you have been trying to prove-that there was no collaboration between Nazis and Jews at all and that this agreement was forced on Jews as a way to save Jews and if there had in fact been a collaboration such an agreement would never have been drafted!

I state it again Keng you are now past the point of being a charlatan. You not only play the victim being persecuted but you refuse to indicate the faith you claim to have and you make continued references to collaboration of Jews with the Nazis and Gestapo and have not provided one document to prove it.

You Keng pure and simple are someone who has come on this forum to inflame and unfortunately you can incite and contaminate young people who do not take the time to read what you are distorting, so yes I make it my mission Keng to challenge you and every time you try play the victim with me and refuse to respond to your points with prove, you dig your hole just a bit deeper and yes I have the patience Keng to ride you into the sun-set.

Now if you wish to try for once in your life to be honest and provide references and state what your belief is based on other then cryptic refences to the fact you are God who decides who goes to hell and who goes to the kingdom of heaven with you, I would be pleased to read it.

But you won't do that will you Keng.

Rue · December 11, 2007

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading and finding out about the holocaust, immigration policy, what the West knew and when its here:

You can find the actual Western intelligence documents and cables and messages sent back and forth.

It also documents what Keng says is a denial of the actual historic facts which have been corroborated by neutral third parties.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/knewtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/history.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/nsarep.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/imtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc.../denialtoc.html

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=...uG&b=394663

Edited December 11, 2007 by Rue

Rue · December 11, 2007

Try this site Oleg. Its written by Christians on the relationship between Christianity and the holocaust.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/guilt.html

kengs333 · December 12, 2007

Ok - I hate these stupid your religions murdered this many people games. Generally they are simlistic gobbets of dung we fling at each other., On a deeper level, however, when carried out in more sober fashion, the inquiry can be enlightening. The fact is Germany - regardless of what the Nazi's believed - was predominantlyu christian and catholic. The German people stood by or assisted Nazi faithful, as these carried out the mass slaughter. While Nazi ideology was pseudo-christian most Germans, as most people usually, did not bnuy into the whole of it, and even more so into the more cultish aspects fostered by the SS. Rather they remained Christian, though not vigilant for the suffering of their fellow men.
Basically most Germans remained human. But there is no question that the holocaust can be said to have been perpetrated by a Christian nation.

Nazism was largely based on non-Christian philosophies and pseudo-scientific concepts such as social darwinism.

http://web.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Wei...hitler-evil.htm

One can argue that North America is also "predominantly Christian" on a superficial level because there are a lot of churches around and a Bible is found in most every home--but the fact of the matter is that most people do not live a Christ-like life, rather simply consider themselves Christian in name, understand a little bit about what is written in the Gospels; but otherwise live a largely secular lifestyle.

It's interesting that people put so much onus on the Germans for what they should have been aware of, but know next to nothing about what it must have been like to live in Germany at that time, just how little could have been known given the control of the media.

kengs333 · December 12, 2007

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading and finding out about the holocaust, immigration policy, what the West knew and when its here:
You can find the actual Western intelligence documents and cables and messages sent back and forth.

It also documents what Keng says is a denial of the actual historic facts which have been corroborated by neutral third parties.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/knewtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/history.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/nsarep.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/imtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc.../denialtoc.html

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=...uG&b=394663

I wouldn't consider any of these sources as unbiased or objective.

kengs333 · December 12, 2007

Again, I haven't denied or "dismiss[ed]" the mass killing of Jews and other "undesireables".
(repeated 3 times in post 93)

Not only does it evidence you repeat the same misrepresentation over and over trying to deny what you said-showing a deliberate pattern of denial, but you referred to Jews as undesireables three times.

I've actually requested that your repeated flagrant twisting, misrepresentation of my arguments, false accusations, etc. be dealt with in some fashion, but evidently that won't be forthcoming. I've grown somewhat tired of your hyper-rants, and this is a perfect example of the kind of content that I find objectionable. If you really cared to just stop and think, perhaps you would realize that I put the word undesireables in quotation marks, which to more literate people would suggest that I'm implying that I don't agree with the term; in other words, according to Nazi ideology, there were Aryans and non-Aryans--Aryans were good, non-Aryians were not good, and were considered "undesireable" races. The part of the sentence that states 'Jews and other "undesireables"' therefore refers to other races that the Nazis considered non-Aryan.

DogOnPorch · December 12, 2007

If anyone is genuinely interested in reading and finding out about the holocaust, immigration policy, what the West knew and when its here:
You can find the actual Western intelligence documents and cables and messages sent back and forth.

It also documents what Keng says is a denial of the actual historic facts which have been corroborated by neutral third parties.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/knewtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/history.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/nsarep.pdf

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...aust/imtoc.html

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc.../denialtoc.html

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=...uG&b=394663

I wouldn't consider any of these sources as unbiased or objective.

Nazism was largely based on non-Christian philosophies and pseudo-scientific concepts such as social darwinism.
http://web.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Wei...hitler-evil.htm

Richard Weikart: Proponent of intelligent design...member of the 'Discovery Institute' and graguate of Texas Christian University. Perhaps not unbiased or objective, either. Just a thought...

:rolleyes:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This picture of the Holocaust as the outcome of a 'culture war' between religion and science leads to serious distortions on both sides.

---Ann Taylor Allen on Weikart's work

kengs333 · December 12, 2007

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This picture of the Holocaust as the outcome of a 'culture war' between religion and science leads to serious distortions on both sides.

---Ann Taylor Allen on Weikart's work

Oh, right, I'm really impressed: quoting a graduate of Bryn Mawr College, a women's "liberal-arts" college and someone who has either "feminism" or "feminist" in the title of the majority of her published works. :rolleyes:

DogOnPorch · December 12, 2007

Oh, right, I'm really impressed: quoting a graduate of Bryn Mawr College, a women's "liberal-arts" college and someone who has either "feminism" or "feminist" in the title of the majority of her published works.

Yeah...being that's all I could find willing to comment on his...errr...work...is rather telling.

:lol:

No Winston Churchill for him...

----------------------------------------

I believe it is peace for our time . . . peace with honour.

---Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain

kengs333 · December 12, 2007

Yeah...being that's all I could find willing to comment on his...errr...work...is rather telling.

Not quite. But I guess one has to be something of an academic to fully appreciate and understand the nature of the debate surrounding his works.

Rue · December 12, 2007

Oh, right, I'm really impressed: quoting a graduate of Bryn Mawr College, a women's "liberal-arts" college and someone who has either "feminism" or "feminist" in the title of the majority of her published works.

Once again you share with the world what a genius you are and how everyone you disagree with are smeered and dismissed with some insults.

Keng you have made yourself an absurd laughing stock precisely because of the kind of ignorant comments like the above. Can you say anything that does not reflect hatred and venom? You've managed to insult and attack, gays, Jews, virtually anyone Christian other then you, and now someone you have never read but label and dismiss with another hate comment.

It must be quite a struggle Keng to try shut out the entire world. You show it in every sentence. The entire world is out to get you so you dismiss it as hostile and full of enemies. Its pathetic Keng.

Now let's get something straight. Your quotation marks about "undesireables" was not the issue. Your coming on this forum with no referenced information to simply try talk down opinions you do not agree with was.

I note when you quoted the Oxford Journal you conveniently skipped the article on the link between Christianity and Nazism written by a Christian scholar as part of those genocide studies. My but we are selective aren't we Keng. Even the passage you claim to have quoted contradicts entirely what you said, and had you read it you would have known that.

Now let's get real specific Keng. You let it slip again and have admitted to this forum that your idea of conversing with "Jews" is to deal with them on the inter-net site. So you haven't spoken with any Jew-you've read their internet comments and from that you label them as insulting to Christians the way they talk about the holocaust. That Keng again shows you blatantly label people with hateful terms not because of anything other then you disagreeing with them.

So tell me Keng, what denimination of Christian are you. Why are you so afraid to say what it is? Come on Keng. You came on this post smeering all Christians other then you as not being true Christians and yet you won't say what denomination you are. Until you do Keng, until you have the integrity to state what you are, we know what you are-someone who uses the word "Christian" to come on this forum and inflame people.

Now that you have proven you have probably never ever spoken to any Jew in your life, and have demonstrated you make things up as you go along and make them try sound as if they are factual, how does one conclude anything other then you are not a member of any denomination you probably have never been able to stay in a church precisely because of your beliefs. Do prove me wrong Keng.

Show us all how I am persecuting you with such comments and tell us your demomination so we can find out where your Christian beliefs come from because right now Keng they seem to come from you not any denomination that taught you what you keep sharing with us.

Edited December 12, 2007 by Rue