Taliban controlling most of Afghanistan, not losing

[trex]

Wed 21 Nov 2007

Taliban controlling much of Afghanistan, warn experts

The Taliban is back in control of "vast swathes" of Afghanistan and its influence is growing fast, an influential think-tank warned today.

Despite the massive international financial and military effort, insurgents have established a permanent presence in more than half of the troubled country.

The situation is so bad that it is a question of "when not if" the Taliban will reappear in Kabul, and there is a "serious" danger they could regain control of the state.

The damning assessment comes in a report by the Senlis Council, one of the few research groups with a base in Afghanistan.

The think-tank warned that the security situation has reached "crisis proportions" and the Taliban's resurgence across the state has been "proven beyond doubt".

The report said: "The insurgency now controls vast swathes of unchallenged territory including rural areas, some district centres, and important road arteries.

"The Taliban are the de facto governing authority in significant portions of territory in the south and east, and are starting to control parts of the local economy and key infrastructure such as roads and energy supply."

-----------------------

I wish they'd make up their minds - one week the Taliban are reported as getting trounced, and the next week, they control almost the whole country

[Wild Bill]

Wed 21 Nov 2007

-----------------------

I wish they'd make up their minds - one week the Taliban are reported as getting trounced, and the next week, they control almost the whole country

Alex, it's a newspaper! Read some of the other stuff on their page!

They obviously have an editorial bias against Britain supporting "The War on Terror". So of course they will pick and choose what stories to run and what points to highlight or play down.

All papers do it. Take a look at the Toronto Star.

All the more reason that people should read more than one viewpoint instead of just one hymn book...

[myata]

Too bad the experience does not teach us anything. It was a mistake to go there in the first place. It's near desperate to stay now propping on a weak government that can't do much (anything?) on their own.

We (especially Bush's cronies) just can't seem to be able to admit that the world will go its own way, whatever grand plan we may have prepared for it.

[trex]

They obviously have an editorial bias against Britain supporting "The War on Terror". So of course they will pick and choose what stories to run and what points to highlight or play down.

All papers do it. Take a look at the Toronto Star.

All the more reason that people should read more than one viewpoint instead of just one hymn book...

The report is by the Senlis council in Afghanistan, not from a newspaper. And all mainstream news sites carried this story. But today it was hard to find, I wonder why? Something they don't want to be well known right now, and hopes it quietly goes away.

[jdobbin]

All the more reason that people should read more than one viewpoint instead of just one hymn book...

Probably why I read reports from Afghanistan and from countries involved there.

It is there than you learn that on the heels of Canada's two soldiers killed, there has been one Australian and one Italian solder killed as well. The Afghan police had a bad week too. Seven of them were beheaded. And the worst off in all of this: civilians. Six children were killed in a bomb blast in the last day.

All of this happens while NATO continues to urge Canada to stay for years to come but don't contribute any additional help to do it.

[Oleg Bach]

Lets put the Taliban in perspective. What are we really dealing with? To understand fully we will have to use our imaginations. Imagine say rural Ontario or for that matter rural Alberta. Now - imagine an invading force that is comprised of combatants from New York City and surrounding suburbs.

The Taliban would be akin to guys living just north of North Bay Ontario - or a clan from Bymore Alberta - a place where I enjoyed some duck hunting with the locals. Take the guys from Northern Ontario - you know the types, guys driving beat up pick up trucks loaded up with high powered semi-auto deer rifles..and for comlimentary easy action weaponry - small and highly effective 22 semi-auto sports rifles that spit out a high velocity accurate stinging pellet that disables and can kill.

Take these rural Canadas and moblize every old guy that likes to sip Canada Club all day and the young pot smoking beer drinkers that know the terrain - every bit of it. Every lake - river and know where all the high ground is along with all the highways, logging roads and backroads. What you have once these hicks are orgainized or totally orgainized is a very dangerous and a naturally skilled gurella force comparable and probably would surpass the so-called Taliban.

Now send in the previously described invaders to attempt to secure Northern Ontario..and remember as the conflict prgressed more and more hicks would travel north to join their comrads..all armed with traditional rural hunting gear. Even if the pretend force coming out of urban America had one hundred times the numbers as our Ontario hicks...they would be caught in a quagmire of death - sniping would become a sport for the whiskey sippers- the defence oh home territory would be inspired and eventually the invaders would suffer so many loses that they would leave - not for politcal reasons but simply because they would loose heart.

The Taliban for the most part are comparable to our proud and brave rural white trash..and I use the term trash as a compiment and a culture...We do have a warrior class decended from old Scottins, Irish, English and Europeans. These men are formadable..on their own turf they are absolutely and utterly dangerous. Some of these men that I have described here are serving in Afghanistan...some are urbanites and some of the land. The Taliban are simple straight forward people. They re-act not out of ideology - but simply the same way our rural hicks would act..in a simple way - "Those guys are on our property, and they refuse to leave - my family has been here for two hundred years and we are not about to be moved or changed or conquered..we will shoot every last son of a bitch we see.

So all the fancey talk out of Canadian parliment don't mean much in the over all - comming from men that have never been in a bar fight...men that have never done without a meal - men that have had privledge over the poor - men that sit their after having a lunch of steak topped off by a couple of shots of priemium scotch - and yell out like heros demanding that capital punishment be reinstated...men who have never so much as looked danger in the eye and over come it out of sheer bravery,confidence faith and pride. Some men that enter politics and are willing to say anything and do anything for a pay cheque other than get in harms personally or politically..so called sophisticated men who do not have a clue how to deal with a straight forward noble primative called Taliban.

[Topaz]

Anyone who watches question period daily, we realize the governement will never come out and tell the truth about the war and the only way we will find out is by journalist who are over there. I heard about 2-3 weeks ago that the Taliban had moved into a western province, which had been held by NATO, I never saw that on the TV news. This is why NATO is saying we need 80,000 MORE troops. The Taiban are growing larger in size and I think its the fact that alot of the terroroist are leaving Iraq and coming back to Afghanistan and if that is the case, the war could be lost and alot of our military. I really don't think Harper took enough time to think this over and this could be that he hadn't had enough experience in government and anyone who voted for him ,has to take some of the blame for what is happening. I'm sure I'll hear about that!

[Argus]

Alex, it's a newspaper! Read some of the other stuff on their page!

They obviously have an editorial bias against Britain supporting "The War on Terror". So of course they will pick and choose what stories to run and what points to highlight or play down.

All papers do it. Take a look at the Toronto Star.

All the more reason that people should read more than one viewpoint instead of just one hymn book...

The Scotsman actually makes the Toronto Star seem like a hard line right wing newspaper by comparison. The Senlis Council that it quotes is chiefly interested in legalizing drugs (ie, heroin, cocaine, grass) throughout the world.

[Argus]

Too bad the experience does not teach us anything. It was a mistake to go there in the first place. It's near desperate to stay now propping on a weak government that can't do much (anything?) on their own.

We (especially Bush's cronies) just can't seem to be able to admit that the world will go its own way, whatever grand plan we may have prepared for it.

So if the west leaves, and the place falls apart like it did before, and we have terrorist training camps which house thousands and thousands of people, would you be okay with us simply nuking the country?

You either agree to that, or to you and your other friends offering yourself and your family up for sacrifice so the Talibanis can behead you and leave the rest of us alone.

Or shut up.

[Guest coot]

Or shut up.

The place already has fallen apart like it did before because they lost focus and decided to start other wars elsewhere and spread their resources too thin. Would you be okay with enlisting and fighting the good fight yourself to ensure they have all the manpower they need?

You either agree to that, or follow your own advice of shutting up.

Edited November 24, 2007 by coot

[trex]

So if the west leaves, and the place falls apart like it did before, and we have terrorist training camps which house thousands and thousands of people, would you be okay with us simply nuking the country?

You either agree to that, or to you and your other friends offering yourself and your family up for sacrifice so the Talibanis can behead you and leave the rest of us alone.

Or shut up.

No, there is another way besides military intervention, and it doesn't include us leaving or turning our backs to the problems that are there. It doesn't involve nuking the country either. Maybe you should consider this alternative before you tell us that you know it all.

Edited November 24, 2007 by trex

[Oleg Bach]

No, there is another way besides military intervention, and it doesn't include us leaving or turning our backs to the problems that are there. It doesn't involve nuking the country either. Maybe you should consider this alternative before you tell us that you know it all.

How can you say that in seriousness "if the west leaves" it will fall apart? to para phrase. Sure looks like "fall apart" is the natural state of this old place..maybe it can just be turned into a living museum for all to observe - can't we just leave the place alone and maybe concentrate on those poor and homeless non-compliant types that we curxify as a threatening example on heating vents in our major cities...besides - it's winter and to allow our boys to endure the torment of an Afghani winter is akin to freezing our bums to death in front of city hall...maybe they can just come home from the "war ' and take up where they left off in the spring..you know - provide shelter for our in effect homeless soldiers in a rocky waste land..besides if we leave for the winter - the Taliban will still be there to play with in the spring - I say lets have a holiday from Afghanistan...kind of like a Christmas rest for our boys.

[Oleg Bach]

How can you say that in seriousness "if the west leaves" it will fall apart? to para phrase. Sure looks like "fall apart" is the natural state of this old place..maybe it can just be turned into a living museum for all to observe - can't we just leave the place alone and maybe concentrate on those poor and homeless non-compliant types that we curxify as a threatening example on heating vents in our major cities...besides - it's winter and to allow our boys to endure the torment of an Afghani winter is akin to freezing our bums to death in front of city hall...maybe they can just come home from the "war ' and take up where they left off in the spring..you know - provide shelter for our in effect homeless soldiers in a rocky waste land..besides if we leave for the winter - the Taliban will still be there to play with in the spring - I say lets have a holiday from Afghanistan...kind of like a Christmas rest for our boys.

And further ---- Equip and plan - gather intelligence - (the smart kind) - then reappear and destoy them utterly...think big or go home - and draft 500 thousand new immigrants that are on welfare and send them over...boom - bong - down like a deer...why not? May as well think big or stay home..Canada always thinks small - war is big - you have to go with full and rapid force..without warning - if you are going to drop the biggest bully in the bar..you do not threaten - you do not warn - you come up from behind and hit him with the most heavey old oak chair you can find..This approach guarenteers success. The Americans as far as effective war makers are terrible - They plan the attack - then broad cast that plan on CNN - warning all...quite bizzare - if this was ww2 - the media would be jailed.

[Wild Bill]

No, there is another way besides military intervention, and it doesn't include us leaving or turning our backs to the problems that are there. It doesn't involve nuking the country either. Maybe you should consider this alternative before you tell us that you know it all.

Well, enlighten us!

Throw it out so we can analyze it and decide if it is practical or not.

These days I'm becoming much more of a "Utilitarian", in that I don't have patience for "Wouldn't it be nice..." or "It really should be THIS way..." proposals.

I crave real world approaches that might work! And I like to go back later and audit their effectiveness.

Spit it out and we'll read it! Just please don't pull a "Jennie" on us if we can't agree it has "workability" and say that we just like to blow countries up or whatever...

[Wild Bill]

And further ---- Equip and plan - gather intelligence - (the smart kind) - then reappear and destoy them utterly...think big or go home - and draft 500 thousand new immigrants that are on welfare and send them over...boom - bong - down like a deer...why not? May as well think big or stay home..Canada always thinks small - war is big - you have to go with full and rapid force..without warning - if you are going to drop the biggest bully in the bar..you do not threaten - you do not warn - you come up from behind and hit him with the most heavey old oak chair you can find..This approach guarenteers success. The Americans as far as effective war makers are terrible - They plan the attack - then broad cast that plan on CNN - warning all...quite bizzare - if this was ww2 - the media would be jailed.

I agree, we do tend to think small. We seem to hold this naive assumption that if things ever got really bad we'd have all the time we'd need to build up to a necessary level of military resources.

This is utter nonsense, of course. In today's world, things happen in days or weeks. Wars are "come as you are" wars. You either have the capability today or you lose, period.

[August1991]

The Taliban for the most part are comparable to our proud and brave rural white trash..and I use the term trash as a compiment and a culture...We do have a warrior class decended from old Scottins, Irish, English and Europeans. These men are formadable..on their own turf they are absolutely and utterly dangerous.

That comparison is completely false. If you knew anything about Afghanistan or had spoken to any Afghanis, you would never describe the Taliban as such.

It would be more accurate to compaer the Taliban to Canada's Hell's Angels. They are thugs and bullies.

[Topaz]

You know who making a mess of this war is the US. They put they helped put this guy in, they still have in their hands on the government. Harper is so inexperience, they he believes whatever this government tells him, especially about the torturing. Whatever they tell him he believes and its probably the US telling Afg. to tell the Canandians this....tell that!

[Oleg Bach]

That comparison is completely false. If you knew anything about Afghanistan or had spoken to any Afghanis, you would never describe the Taliban as such.

It would be more accurate to compaer the Taliban to Canada's Hell's Angels. They are thugs and bullies.

Exactly - Hells angels are usually anglo men who in a former time may have been clan learders who are genetically predisposed to waring - As I once mentioned - the difference between Hells Angels and our high buisness elite is not much..they are all decended genetically from the same stock - if you de-tattoo and Hells" Angel leader and shave him up and suit him up and put him in a board meeting in some old established investment firm - you would not know who was who - they are relatives that go way back - Our establishement are simply the ones that won the old feuds and are now dominant -

who is ever the victor and who is larger and stronger and more orgainzed - becomes legitimate and the smaller group become crimminalized and marginalized - but they all spawn from the same original mother if you know what I mean...some are presentable and others are not..Just like in global politics - America is the most powerful and best orgainized orgainized crime - hence they are "repectable" and the smaller crime families less established become the crimminals - they are both the same when it comes to ethic and morals.

One group that dominates may order a contract killing by the CIA to remove irritants and potential competators - and the big ugly bearded guys order contract killings also - one is legal and one is not - so what's the big deal? Do you really believe that the presence of private forces like Black Water do not have former Hells Angels affiliates operating under the auspice of government - I would bet there are such guys in Iraq...maybe we should get the former Mayor of Toronto to call up the boys he shook hands in duriong a bungled photo op - to go over and kick some Taliban ass - who knows - maybe the Taliban will respect Hells angels operatives..they certainly do not respect it when - for instance America sent an openly gay man as a diplomat ot Iraq - what the hell were the Americans thinking insulting the local tough guys like that?

Rural Ontario men are a tough lot...and to say we don't have bullies is not true - maybe we should be smart and recruit our bullies to go smack down their bullies - or to negotiate a peace...heaven knows that namby pamby politicals are not respected. There will be no negotiation that is successful with the tough and bullish Taliban - if we keep sending liberal meterosexual sissies to deal with them - how can they take us seriously?

[Fortunata]

Peter McKay said on tv that the Senlis Council is not credible.

[Oleg Bach]

Peter McKay said on tv that the Senlis Council is not credible.

Peter Mckay that ancient aristocratic Roman nosed one? What good is he - the guy could not gain control over that silly woman Belinda...and I would assume he had a few politcal secrets sucked out of him by her - all puns intended - no wonder she jumped ship after Peter let her know she was not going to be the big conservative bozz EVER...Mckay is not impressive - don't we have some real cool impressionist in posotions of leadership? Where are all the men - No folks Tai Domi is not a man - just a fist.

[Moxie]

The report is by the Senlis council in Afghanistan, not from a newspaper. And all mainstream news sites carried this story. But today it was hard to find, I wonder why? Something they don't want to be well known right now, and hopes it quietly goes away.

Ah the Senlis Council, well from my research it's a one person show. A female lawyer seems to be their "Council" in Canada. It's funding comes from Europe, who's funding it? Good question, go to Army.ca there is a really good thread on this "Council" or lack of Council. Their (whomever they are) agenda seems to be legallizing drugs.

In a country as morally corrupt as Afghanistan are we really surprised warlords steal the aide money? NO. What's the alternative?

[myata]

Has anybody noticed it too? Every time somebody somewhere has an urge (or itch?) to "go in", it's to save us from an imminent disaster. And every time we believe and do it, it actually ends up in one (or very near it). Some paradox ...

[jdobbin]

Ah the Senlis Council, well from my research it's a one person show. A female lawyer seems to be their "Council" in Canada. It's funding comes from Europe, who's funding it? Good question, go to Army.ca there is a really good thread on this "Council" or lack of Council. Their (whomever they are) agenda seems to be legallizing drugs.

In a country as morally corrupt as Afghanistan are we really surprised warlords steal the aide money? NO. What's the alternative?

The Council has eight offices across the world including one in Canada. It is one of the few NGOs that actually has researchers on the ground in Kandahar and Helmand provinces in Afghanistan.

They are not for legalizing drugs. They are for using Afghanistan poppies for morphine, a legal painkiller used around the world.

The military has often said that the ultimate solution out of Afghanistan is a political one. It would help if groups like the Senlis Council actually listened to in regards to getting Afghanistan's poppy crop into the legal painkiller market.

[trex]

"Intelligence analysts acknowledge the battlefield victories, but they highlight the Taliban's unchallenged expansion into new territory, an increase in opium poppy cultivation and the weakness of the government of President Hamid Karzai as signs that the war effort is deteriorating."

White House Afghanistan Report

Why do they call it the "White House"?

Further on-

Overall, "there doesn't seem to be a lot of progress being made. . . . I would think that from [the Taliban] standpoint, things are looking decent," the intelligence official said.

Senior White House officials privately express pessimism about Afghanistan. There is anxiety over the current upheaval in neighboring Pakistan, where both the Taliban and al-Qaeda maintain headquarters, logistical support and training camps along the Afghan border.

While U.S. and other NATO forces have maintained a firm hold on major cities, they have been unable to retain territory in the vast rural areas where 75 percent of Afghanistan's population lives, several sources said. Ground hard-won in combat has been abandoned and reoccupied by Taliban forces, which establish dominance over local governmental bodies.

In last year's Operation Medusa, Jones said, Canadian combat troops fought hard for control of the Panjwai district, south of Kandahar. "Four weeks ago," he said, "the levels of Taliban in Panjwai . . . were back up to pre-Operation Medusa."

Experts said the Taliban's control has extended beyond the group's traditional southern territory, with extremists making substantial inroads this year into the western provinces of Farah, Herat and others along the Iranian border even as they regularly challenge eastern-based U.S. forces.

"We're seeing definite expanded strongholds," said a U.S. official who declined to be identified by agency. "That's not going to stop in 2008. . . . If anything, it's gaining momentum."

The former senior U.S. commander said suicide attacks are a "hugely effective tactic" that has been imported from Iraq to Afghanistan, terrorizing the population and convincing Afghans that the coalition cannot protect them. "The idea that [suicide bombs] are a sign of desperation, that's ludicrous," he said.

In Washington, Afghanistan policy has often seemed to be on the back burner since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Republican presidential candidates rarely discuss it, while Democrats generally bring it up to criticize the administration, saying officials are paying too much attention to Iraq at the expense of a "forgotten" war.

‘It’s getting worse’

"Unless we resolve the safe-haven issue, this is not going to succeed," said Henry A. Crumpton, a CIA veteran who led the agency's successful 2001 Afghanistan campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda. "It's getting worse."

Others said the problem is not Pakistan or a lack of military or financial resources in Afghanistan. It is the absence, they say, of a strategic plan that melds the U.S. military effort with a comprehensive blueprint for development and governance throughout the country.

--------

While Canadian troops march on.

This mainstream source echoes the same concerns by the senlis council report, to repudiate any armchair nay-sayers who challenged its credibility.

Peter Mackay, read the news.

Of course, we all know when the politician is lieing.

Edited November 25, 2007 by trex

[Argus]

The place already has fallen apart like it did before because they lost focus and decided to start other wars elsewhere and spread their resources too thin. Would you be okay with enlisting and fighting the good fight yourself to ensure they have all the manpower they need?

You either agree to that, or follow your own advice of shutting up.

That's an idiotic suggestion, but unsurprising given it's become something of a cliche from the unthinking herd of the left.

There is no absence of volunteers to fight in Afghanistan. The men and women there are enthusiastic supporters of the mission. They are also considerably better trained and equipped than I am, not to mention in better physical condition. The brake on additional manpower is not a lack of volunteers but weepy hand-wringers who can't abide the thought of violence being used against brown people.