Superiour White People - ?

[ScottSA]

Well Posit perhaps you could provide some mainstream scientific thought that is peer reviewed that supports your theory of two strains of the same DNA producing humans but never having met from over 100 million years ago.. hmmmm.. I wonder what the mathematical odds of that happening would be?

Never mind that poppycock. Man evolved in one place, and one place only. Scotland. You want peer review? Why, just ask Angus McSnatchasheep Esq. I don't know why they went to Africa afterwards...perhaps it had a nice climate at the time...but from Scotland they came, an' that's the Gospel, ken?

[M.Dancer]

I guess because it's part of Native American's oral hgistory Posit believes it must be true.

[Rue]

Spare me the hamfisted sarcasm. You live in a manner few people in the world live in, and it's a result of the surplus created, not by the happenstance of resource location, but the social system that allowed us to exploit it. Grow up.

I have grown up and as a result I do not have a childish compulsion to suggest I am superior-I look at myself and I am capable of criticizing it and being humble about it. Before you tell me to grow up ask yourself why you still feel the need to tell people you are superior and ridicule them.

Maturity usually is evidenced with a balanced reasoned debate to someone you disagree with, without name calling.

I am deadly serious Scott, some of us consider what we do in the West deadly and killing us and unless we mature and evolve we are destined to extinction. We do not think our lifestyle is superior we see it as flawed and defective and that does not make us ungrateful but adults because we know if we do not take responsibility for what we are doing our children and their children have what? In my opinion an adult looks to those behind him and says is what I am doing in their best interests-should I just live for myself and not worry about future generations?

One of the principal reasons there is a clash between the aboriginal and Western experience is precisely because we in the West live in the here and the now dettached from the past or future while aboriginal experience is holistic and sees them all temporal and connected.

As well for me Scott for anyone to think the Judeo-Christian culture is superior to anyone else's is absurd. I can find good and bad things about anyone's culture but to suggest one is better then another? See to do that one must be selective and ignore the parts of their own history they care to skip over. My people had their share of violence and tribal wars and still struggle and yours? Just how long ago was it people were being burned at the stake or tortured because they would not repent. Come to think of it if Keng represents your culture are you not worried it is in a state of turmoil and regressing?

Nyah nyah goo goo to you too but Scott I am again serious, some of us defer to abroiginals as superior to us in terms of spiritual development and as spiritual guides not because we heroworship them or feel guilty but because we acknowledge parts of their cultures that ours have forsaken-that is all.

Living in a world of material value to some of us is something we want to criticize constructively. We know the planet is limited in what it can offer and we want to find ways to acknowledge those limitations before we destroy it.

The yip yip you hear is me choking on pollution and garbage I want to find a way to deal with.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

I guess because it's part of Native American's oral hgistory Posit believes it must be true.

Monsier Le Dance there is an often repeated assumption that oral tradition is less legitimate or credible then written tradition. The problem is that is a cultural assumption you make based on your own cultural bias. I am trying to be serious here and engage you on this without being insulting or sounding self-righteous.

Look at our Bible. It is written but we know its anything but reliable. Many things written down have been like the Bible re-written and re-edited and changed so many times they lose credibility.

In fact certain oral traditions have more safeguards in place to prevent distortion precisely because they are not written.

If you did look at some of the oral traditions of just some of the native collectives you might find anthropologists and geologists and botanists and many other scientists have found their oral traditions very accurate and capable of being proven through conventional science.

The oral traditions for example dealing with herbs and plants to be used as medicinal properties is widely respected. Aboriginal knowledge of geological properties or environmental evolution is widely used.

Modern science has embraced and looks to these same oral traditions you might find lacking in credibility as valuable teaching guides. You might be suprised what you could learn from aboriginal oral traditions that our zoologists, biologists and animal behavioural scientists are looking to for assistance.

It gets frustrating seeing what I consider intelligent people make such assumptions which with due respect are based on what this stereotype that when people speak it gets distorted? Everything we write, say or do can be subject to distortion-its more then the form it takes that must be considered when we consider whether its distorted or not and for starters we can look to our cultural biases as one of the biggest factors in how we distort things. That and I suspect testosterone.

[M.Dancer]

Monsier Le Dance there is an often repeated assumption that oral tradition is less legitimate or credible then written tradition. The problem is that is a cultural assumption you make based on your own cultural bias. I am trying to be serious here and engage you on this without being insulting or sounding self-righteous.

Look at our Bible. It is written but we know its anything but reliable. Many things written down have been like the Bible re-written and re-edited and changed so many times they lose credibility.

I place the credibility of the Bible's creation myths on equal footing with creations myths found anywhere. They are neither factual nor scientific. And no doubt, over the millenia they have changed to suit their culture and environment just as you claim the bible has. This is self evident in that they must have changed given if they place mankind in North America from creation, when in fact like every other human, we migrated out of Africa.

[Riverwind]

Modern science has embraced and looks to these same oral traditions you might find lacking in credibility as valuable teaching guides. You might be surprised what you could learn from aboriginal oral traditions that our zoologists, biologists and animal behavioural scientists are looking to for assistance.

There is a huge difference between oral traditions related to 'technology' (i.e. knowledge of the plants and animals around) and oral traditions related to history. Oral traditions related to 'technology' can be verified and corrected if our experiences today contradict the oral tradition. Oral traditions related to history might have some basis in truth but they will always be self-serving since they form part of the mythology that is used to unify a culture. In other words, any history that does not present the group in a flattering light will be conveniently forgotten and any 'outsiders' are painted a caricatures. This problem of biased perspective exists with western histories as well, however, the fact that so much was written down makes it possible to go back and revise the tales spun by western historians when necessary. This makes written histories more useful than oral histories when it comes to understanding what really happened in the past. Edited November 27, 2007 by Riverwind

[jefferiah]

Rue, no one is saying that there is no use for oral history. Of course there is. And in some situationas it can be very useful as an aid to historical research as well. But it is hardly ever an example of concrete evidence.

As for the assertion that any theory other than Posit's is being used for political reasons, becuz it eases the white man's guilt or something like that. I think that is nonsense. I think most of us here are of the attitude that we don't care what happened a few hundred years ago anyway. As an Irish descendant I harbor no ill will to the English or demand reparations for something that may have happened to one of my ancestors. So no one really cares if natives evolved into humans over here anyways Posit. Or how long Natives were here. You seem to labour under the assumption that people on the other side of the argument have the same hang ups with history. Even though I think you are going completely overboard here, if you could somehow prove (for the sake of argument) that Natives just appeared on the Americas out of nowhere, it would make no difference in our reasoning, because the thing is a large part of our argument is the fact that none of the whiteys alive today were alive when colonialism happened and neither were any of the natives today. But nonetheless it is a ridiculous idea. You keep saying that it is the commonly accepted idea nowadays. By whom exactly? I mean you throw this out and then accuse everyone else of accepting the theory which is convenient for them politically. I think with your last few posts it is obvious who is stretching science and archaeology for political reasons.

Edited November 27, 2007 by jefferiah

[DogOnPorch]

Only the racists perpetuate this myth. They have to believe that indigenous people are immigrants themselves in order to justify the murder, rape and genocide employed by their ancestors to expand colonialism.

They're (Natives) immigrants like the rest of us. Also, if you're going to use strawman tactics, at least make them subtle. Thanks.

Using elementary grade texts as argument to support your xenophobia is a pedantic tactic to say the (l)east.

Better than none at all...which is all I've gotten from you. Links, please.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must never be satisfied with losing. You must get angry, terribly angry, about losing. But the mark of the good loser is that he takes his anger out on himself and not his victorious opponents or on his teammates.

---Richard M. Nixon

[Higgly]

...however the Feds have given control of the reserves to local bands.

Actually, they haven't. The Band governments are controlled through funding and most reserves are perpetually underfunded. Band control of the schools has only been an option the last 8 or so years. However, INAC only funds native schools at about 1/10 to 1/5 of the same non-native schools. In a moment Bands can be seize and put under third party management without input or concurrence from any band member.

Reserve Police forces....

Very few reserves have autonomous police forces that are under the funding control of the bands. In Ontario most of the reserves have police that are trained, funded and supervised by the OPP. In other parts of Canada, the RCMP totally police the reserves, sometimes with aboriginal officers, but full RCMP none the less. The RCMP also have a policy of keeping aboriginal officers away from their home reserves, so even though the officers patrolling the reserve are aboriginal, they often have cultural differences that make it difficult to understand each other.

Native Children placed in foster homes (usually their grandmother's home)....

Rarely are native children placed in family homes for care. If a child does end up in a family member's home it is because the family has intervened long before the Children's Aid Society has entered the picture. However, once the CAS does come in, children are most often placed off the reserves, sometimes in far away towns and villages and many times in non-native culturally detached families. Chief Fountaine last spring mentioned that there are now more native children in foster care than all the children that went through the residential school system. That in itself indicates to me that government-sanction genocide is still taking place, using different methods but with the same goals.

We gave them control of their lives....

That is a paternalistic statement that is far from the truth. In reality we have controlled their lives and continue to insist (just listen to some of the ignorant rants on this forum) that we know what is best for them. We control almost every aspect of their life - even on reserve - by creating funding shortfalls, education lotteries, and even making sure that their drinking water stays contaminated in the hopes they will move from their remote communities and get out of the way of resource developers. At Kasetchewan, the government installed a sewage treatment plant 10 years ago that was upstream of the water intake pipes despite being warned of the possible contamination. Last year when they had to be evacuated, the suggestion was to move them to Timmins and let them integrate into a more urban culture. However, what the government hasn't been honest about is that DeBeers is intending to file a claim about a mile from their village in the heart of their hunting territory to mine diamonds. Interesting to say the least but THAT was not a coincidence.

We need to work together, not isolate each other but work together to protect these children from the never ending cycle of Social Experiments.

While noble, your suggestion would create yet another social experiment. The high incidents of alcoholism, substance abuse, child and spousal abuse, poverty and unemployment are not the causes of their issues. They are merely symptoms - most of which can be directly traced back to the residential school experience; the loss of family, community, culture and language. It has been suggested that the government spent about $800 million on residential schools and their target of "taking the Indian out of the child." IMO they have a responsibility to put at least the same amount of money in 2008 dollars back into a system that helps restore these things. The Kelowna Accord woutl have started that process but eh Conservatives are more interested in maintaining genocide than they are of finding solutions. Yet their limit seems to be confined to the $3000 per year residential school common experience buy-out...totally unacceptable IMV. It they want to help, then funding must be provided to let First Nations find their own solutions to the common experience. There is no "one size fits all" and no mainstream model that can help FN out of the rut they are in. Recovery in any "ism" is the property of the individual - they must make a decision to stop their behaviors, ask for help and realize they are helpless over their addictions. Once they hit their bottom then the government has a duty - a fiduciary duty - to provide the funding for full recovery, whether that means paying for full time support groups, treatment centres or traditional healing sessions. That is the only path to recovery that we can offer. Anything more constitutes interference and anything less perpetuates the genocide.

The "Native Culture" needs to change......

There are only two ways to change culture. Genocide or assimilation. Both have been tried. Both are crimes against humanity. And both failed. Culture cannot be changed. By the same token our society is filled with a culture of entitlement, a culture of superiority and a culture of violence. These things clash with native culture. The only thing we can do for now (at least until there is a revolution against the corporations that promote and protect our cultural icons) is to accept their culture, support it to the degree that we have a responsibility to, and provide them the freedom to operate in parallel to us. That could mean sovereign self government. It could me family based communities and systems within the framework of a third tier of Canadian governance and it could be willful assimilation into the mainstream while retaining cultural centres. However, none of the solutions are up to us. We must let them decide and then provide the funding, settle the land claims and protect their aboriginal rights with every resource at our disposal.

One of the key points that gives natives power in today's world is money - through economic development. The ED must include royalties, employment and community improvements as a result of resource extraction on their lands. Currently many reserves are benefiting from the tobacco sales, which is producing millions of dollars a year in ED to the community. And those involved in tobacco trade are fully aware of the ED sustainability by reinvesting their profits back into the community in the form of new and innovative businesses, local employment and support for many of the community social systems that have always been underfunded. That power scares government as they sick the RCMP after the tobacco sellers and manufacturers, citing lost revenue, contaminated tobacco and contraband sales. Yet they routinely stop vehicles on numerous highways, confiscate shipments destined for other reserves and impound their vehicles they rarely follow up with substantial charges fearing the courts will rule against them. The RCMP claim their authority comes from laws that allow them to use extraneous measures to counter gang crime. Yet the majority of people operating the tobacco shops are ma and pa operations. The RCMP know this but are breaking the law anyway and hiding behind obscurity to interrupt native economic development because they realize that with all that money and control over their lives, native people are beginning to stand up and question the government on their continuing attempts at genocide and oppression (like Shawn Brant did in the spring and summer of 2007). The charges are bogus and yet no one has the authority to tell the RCMP to stop breaking the law.

Change can only come within and in a democratic society one cannot impose change on another. If that change is going to happen to either us or the natives, then we must first eliminate corruption from our own political systems, demand that the police stop abusing the law and issue ultimatums to racists and white supremacist that their ignorance and hate will not be tolerated. We must get control of the corporations that continue to destroy land and people's livelihoods all for the interest of the investor. We must force the protection of our environment, prosecuting anyone in abeyance to the full extent of the law. We must stop urban sprawl and raise as much concern for farmers and our food and water sources as we do for the stock market evaluation of the rising Canadian dollar. Only then, when we have become models of an ideal society can we ask someone to joins us.

Good analysis, Posit.

[kengs333]

Good analysis, Posit.

Need you quote his entire post?

[kengs333]

Kengs333 I suspect you haven't graduated high school, let alone community college or university. If you did then I would suggest that you also seek a refund since you make a poor example of why kids should stay in school and get an education.

Actually, I've graduated from all three.

It's really neat that you can cook up a bogus theory and make it sound somewhat legitimate, but honestly, you're not fooling anyone here, and I think your constant posting on the topic, and your need to re-inforce your arguments with personal attacks, is now causing you to stray into the same zone that you recently departed compatriot found herself in just a short while ago. Have you learned from her mistakes, it doesn't look like it.

[ScottSA]

One of the principal reasons there is a clash between the aboriginal and Western experience is precisely because we in the West live in the here and the now dettached from the past or future while aboriginal experience is holistic and sees them all temporal and connected.

You can mystify stoneage culture all you want Rue, but the reason you're not sitting in a hide tent freezing and hoping that dinner lopes along soon is that you don't belong to that culture. Oh, wait...are you over 35? You'd be dead by now if you lived in that culture.

As well for me Scott for anyone to think the Judeo-Christian culture is superior to anyone else's is absurd. I can find good and bad things about anyone's culture but to suggest one is better then another? See to do that one must be selective and ignore the parts of their own history they care to skip over. My people had their share of violence and tribal wars and still struggle and yours? Just how long ago was it people were being burned at the stake or tortured because they would not repent. Come to think of it if Keng represents your culture are you not worried it is in a state of turmoil and regressing?

Here you drag the red herring of "history" across the trail. I have news for you Rue. Indian history wasn't a long romp through idylic fields of clover, and sunny sylvan afternoons spent down by the brook. It was nasty brutish and short, and anything you can dredge up from European history can be found in any other culture around the globe. Maybe not the specifics, but most certainly the general theme. But here's the clincher...we dont burn witches, Jews or gypsies at the stake anymore Rue. We haven't done it for years and years, and it's not because someone made us stop, unlike the practice of scalping and skinning alive that certain tribes used to have a hankering for.

Our society, unlike most, actually evolves. I don't know if you're aware of the rarity of that little fact, but it's not common, and it speaks very well of our society. You say there's a problem with the environment? What other culture would take the time to even try to deal with it? China? India? Stone age tribes who would still be driving herds of buffalo over cliffs if left to their own devices? Our society Rue. We had the drive and the cultural infrastructure to create the benefits that everyone else wants (including Indians), and we are the only society with the surplus, the drive, and the moral imperitive to deal with the side effects of that progress.

[M.Dancer]

Our society, unlike most, actually evolves.

Rarely outside of the topic of today's weather do I agree with my old friend MacFeeble, but here I do without reservation (no pun intended). It is the hall mark of our society. Yes we used to chop off hands for stealing, brand women for whoring, imprison children for poverty's sake...yes we did all those things.

But each and every decade we look deep within and the norms of yester year are examined, judged and put to the test. No one has made us change except for ourselves.

This is our heritage, out judaeo christian heritage. And the Natives can thank manitoo we are like that and not some other culure bent on destroying all opposing viewpoints...

[Posit]

Rarely outside of the topic of today's weather do I agree with my old friend MacFeeble, but here I do without reservation (no pun intended). It is the hall mark of our society. Yes we used to chop off hands for stealing, brand women for whoring, imprison children for poverty's sake...yes we did all those things.

But each and every decade we look deep within and the norms of yester year are examined, judged and put to the test. No one has made us change except for ourselves.

This is our heritage, out judaeo christian heritage. And the Natives can thank manitoo we are like that and not some other culure bent on destroying all opposing viewpoints...

No. You're just hell bent on protecting the WASP male cadre that makes the all rules. That's not evolution. It is form of legal masturbation.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Posit

[jbg]

Only the racists perpetuate this myth.

Would you please stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist?

[jbg]

The "Native Culture" needs to change......There are only two ways to change culture. Genocide or assimilation. Both have been tried. Both are crimes against humanity.

The Jews are among the most successful immigrants in virtually all countries they inhabit (and haven't been killed off). They also are, at least by day, totally assimilated.

Are you saying I'm a "crime victim" becaise I work through the day rather than praying all day, and speak fluent English?

[kengs333]

The Jews are among the most successful immigrants in virtually all countries they inhabit (and haven't been killed off). They also are, at least by day, totally assimilated.

Not in Canada prior to WWII. There's always more than ability involved in these things.

[luvacuppajoe]

Not a chance in hell. Any primate like mammal living at the time was the ancestor of everything from lemurs and monkeys to gorillas and humans. Any parallel development that started that long ago would have produced distinct species with very different physical characteristics. It is clear that you will go to any length to justify your delusions.

The generally accepted explaination for this evidence is that boatmen from polynesian islands in the south pacific were able make the voyage (this is what I was talking about when I said there were multiple waves a immigration).

Here is a map of the migrations of humans out of africa: http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/?

That's a fantastic interactive site you've linked. At the 25,000 - 22,000 year point (where the Bering land bridge is introduced) clicking on the book icon brings up a great summary of the 'Milankovitch hypothesis' of warming and cooling trends through the ages.

This one is worth bookmarking, thanks RW!

[Posit]

Would you please stop calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist?

I'm not calling anyone "who disagrees" with me a "racist". I stated that those in the scientific community who perpetuate the myth that the natives have to be immigrants are racist...and I explained the reasons why.

[White Doors]

I'm not calling anyone "who disagrees" with me a "racist". I stated that those in the scientific community who perpetuate the myth that the natives have to be immigrants are racist...and I explained the reasons why.

The natives ARE immigrants just like everyone else.

[M.Dancer]

It is form of legal masturbation.

What is illegal masturbation?

[Posit]

The natives ARE immigrants just like everyone else.

Are you a scientist?

[M.Dancer]

Are you a scientist?

Of course he isn't but he can read....and not just wing nut writings either. But please do go on and tell us more about how natives evolved independantly from the rest of humanity....everyone needs someone to laugh at.

[GostHacked]

ScottSA

But lets back up and work on spelling issues before we get into the complicated stuff.

If you are constantly worried about the language used, then you will never accomplish anything. I am sure, being the bigger man you are, you can overlook such common errors as spelling and grammer... GRAMMAR ,, SORRY SCOTTSA.

Many replies by many posters complain about spelling and grammar. But if you understood what the person said, then continue with the converstation. If you do not understand the persons post, then ASK FOR CLARITY instead of jumping the gun and calling us all uneducated (really this is waht you are boiling it all down to, but you will deny that anyways right?)

Poist

Oh look! Another Wikipedaidiot just entered the discussion!

No substance here either, just attackin the poster for using WIKIPEDIA, knowing how innacurate it is. But the general message is there.

Let me go back to it.

Canada has a culture ... a mix of all cultures, and is constantly changing and morphing into somthing else. Our modern society is killing all cultures. What is the US's culture for that matter? The US is another 'melting pot' society. Lots of closed minded people here that cannot see outside the box for the blinders. I am personaly disgusted by how some of you post.

Canada and the US were founded by English and French immigrants. Then many other Europeans came as well to settle here. You can find many different cultures in canada that make up the whole large cultural mosaic.

Can anyone of you define US culture? Since they seem to have one and Canada is just a US-like culture? Similar yes. Different yes. But both are a mash up of many different cultures.I will say now that since we are all just a mash of different cultures, then we in Canada and the US do not have any culture at all. If Canada does not, then the US does not.

Define native. How long do you have to be in one spot to be considered a native? if you are born there , you are native right? If you moved to emmigrated correct? I am a native of Canada. I was born here. My grandparents were born in Germany and Poland. The immigrated here after WWII. My personal culture is Canadian/German.

I will offer a slap to the face of anyone saying that a certain people is supreme over others. For it is just bigoted and ignorant. I kind of like Rue's ice cream theory. We are all the same on the inside, but outside we are different. It is those differences we should embrace/respect.

Take colour, religion, politics out of everyones life, and we will all fine out we are all in this together. But some kids are greedy and ignorant and don't want others to play in their sandbox, because they fear differences. FEAR. That fear of difference has been used throughout history to make ones culture/race seem superior than another. Fear. They are bushmen. Fear. They are uncivilized. FEAR. They do not speak the same language. Fear. They have a difference religion. Fear. They have a different way of doing things. FEAR FEAR FEAR. Fear of the unknown, but more or less people make false statements about the unknowns to make us FEAR more. So they can keep the control over us.

Done ranting, back to your regularly scheduled bashfest.

[Posit]

Of course he isn't but he can read....and not just wing nut writings either. But please do go on and tell us more about how natives evolved independantly (sic) from the rest of humanity....everyone needs someone to laugh at.

Then his opinion is as worthless as the mouthwash he has been using. Legal masturbation - using the law for self-gratifying purposes....i.e. Calling the police to your neighbour's house because he didn't invite you to his party.