Protest stops trucks to landfill near Caledonia

[jennie]

It is my great pleasure to report that a team of protesters including Six Nations Confederacy people and residents of Haldimand County (HALT) have stopped trucks from delivering garbage to the recently expanded Edwards landfill.

The landfill operators agree to halt work until next week, and to consult with the Six Nations Confederacy's development team. If work resumes without an agreement, there will be further protest action.

This is land within the Six Nations claims area of the Haldimand Tract. The old landfill is known to be leaking toxins into the Grand River, as it is close to the river. Apparently there was an effort to remove some of the old toxic waste before the expansion, but the expansion is HUGE. A group called HALT has been opposing the expansion for years without success. Now teamed up with Six Nations, they continue to try to stop this environmental disaster in their county.

Today they achieved a temporary success. More to come ...

Oh and the OPP have not yet made a formal statement, but informally they are glad to see "the two communities working together".

I don't believe the media caught this one. It started at 9 am and ended at 1 pm when the operators of the dump agreed to stop work until consultation with the Confederacy.

Haldimand County residents (unsuccessful) against the landfill expansion initiated discussions with the Confederacy some time ago. I believe they waited until the old toxic waste was removed. The new stuff is supposed to go into a "liner" of unknown longevity.

I think we should have to put our trash into above ground tanks, so we have to look at it, instead of sending it careening around the province on the highways to pollute someone else's backyard.

Edited November 17, 2007 by jennie

[M.Dancer]

Aside from yes, lets taser the lot of them and pepper spray them as well....

did you happen to notice the thread about concurrent theads or do you feel that every time a native hoodlum farts it deserves a new thread?

[old_bold&cold]

My personal view is to immediately have the police arrest all the protesteres and at the first hint of violence, draw the guns and any further opposition should be taken as a possible cause for armed take downs. This has got to end and if they find that their protests are taken as an immediate threat to public peace then they will soon go on to using the courts, which is where it all should be.

I would rather this ends now then later as it will be bloodier later, as the Natives people are looking for a show down, and the public is about ready to give them that show down.

[geoffrey]

What are they consultations? "Pay us cash and we'll let you operate?" This is a new precedent because they are expanding their racket beyond the reserve.

Typical Six Nations blackmail and extortion. Are they going to send out the warriors to kick the crap out of some more innocent people if we don't stop and pay them money?

[Oleg Bach]

What are they consultations? "Pay us cash and we'll let you operate?" This is a new precedent because they are expanding their racket beyond the reserve.

Typical Six Nations blackmail and extortion. Are they going to send out the warriors to kick the crap out of some more innocent people if we don't stop and pay them money?

The old mobsters that are the head of Six Nations have figured out one thing and play it to no end- that the governing men are also crooks and love it when things are destablized - it's like gangsters from a primitive era discovering that the modern boys are just like them...watch an old clip from cable TV - first Nations mentioned way back when, setting up a gambling operation in Palistine - Arafat got an envelope as did Sharon - don't underestimate the intuitive power of natives - they will figure out the system and apparently the Six Nations gang has.

[Posit]

What are they consultations? "Pay us cash and we'll let you operate?" This is a new precedent because they are expanding their racket beyond the reserve.

Typical Six Nations blackmail and extortion. Are they going to send out the warriors to kick the crap out of some more innocent people if we don't stop and pay them money?

You would like that to support your ignorance, right Geoff?

The "consultations" and "accommodations" that are required by Canadian law, are planning measures and land use policies implemented by Six Nations to cover the Haldimand Tract. Since our government is unwilling to follow the law, or compel developers (in this case the City of Toronto) to comply with the law, the Confederacy has informed them all that no development (including the expansion of the dump to hold all of Toronto's waste) can move ahead without the express approval of the Haudensaunee Development Institute which is the planning department of the Confederacy.

I guess you guys would rather break the law than to call for it in your angst. No wonder there is two tier justice.....the right wing types think they are exempt from the layers of laws they keep implementing.

[M.Dancer]

The only people breaking the law are the ones seting up road blocks.

I don't recall, are roads blocks and intimidation part of the planning measures?

As far as I'm concerned they can take their goons and hooligans to the vancouver airport and let the taser happy RCMP deal with them.

[Oleg Bach]

The only people breaking the law are the ones seting up road blocks.

I don't recall, are roads blocks and intimidation part of the planning measures?

As far as I'm concerned they can take their goons and hooligans to the vancouver airport and let the taser happy RCMP deal with them.

I like you guys. You are actually funny - and dark humor to boot - what a bonus!

[Posit]

The only people breaking the law are the ones seting up road blocks.

I don't recall, are roads blocks and intimidation part of the planning measures?

As far as I'm concerned they can take their goons and hooligans to the vancouver airport and let the taser happy RCMP deal with them.

There are no "roadblocks".

There was a "protest" yesterday at the dump and it was organized by both non-natives from nearby communities going under the banner of HALT and Six Nations participants represented by the HDI. Both were stopping the dump expansion (the environmental assessment isn't yet complete by Toronto seems to think it is above the law), and were able to get an agreement to delay the construction / earthworks fro a week while they meet with the HDI and discuss their concerns.

The only ones breaking the law are the pitiful Toronto bureaucrats that authorized construction before the environmental assessment even got off the ground (the EA - a two year process - was just started in July). Seems you're wrong again M.Dancer - just like most the other times too!

[geoffrey]

You would like that to support your ignorance, right Geoff?

Just reality and racial equality is all I'm supporting.

The "consultations" and "accommodations" that are required by Canadian law, are planning measures and land use policies implemented by Six Nations to cover the Haldimand Tract.

That's nice. When they become government, they can make their laws. Unfortunately, they are not, so too bad.

Since our government is unwilling to follow the law, or compel developers (in this case the City of Toronto) to comply with the law, the Confederacy has informed them all that no development (including the expansion of the dump to hold all of Toronto's waste) can move ahead without the express approval of the Haudensaunee Development Institute which is the planning department of the Confederacy.

That's really cute. I expressedly demand you give me your house and car, because I claim your land. You probably wouldn't go along with that. When they have the law on their side, ok, until then, nope.

Our family had land in New France, which was seized by the British to make Canada. That land happens to now be an upscale residential development in Montreal. Do I have a right to all their property tomorrow? If not, why not? I'm using the Six Nation's logic. I have unceded land in Montreal. Gimme gimme! Maybe I'll blockade something and extort people!

I guess you guys would rather break the law than to call for it in your angst. No wonder there is two tier justice.....the right wing types think they are exempt from the layers of laws they keep implementing.

No, Indians (a DNA based status) should not have powers above anyone else. I can't just demand money and interrupt business. Niether should they.

[Wild Bill]

Just reality and racial equality is all I'm supporting.

That's nice. When they become government, they can make their laws. Unfortunately, they are not, so too bad.

That's really cute. I expressedly demand you give me your house and car, because I claim your land. You probably wouldn't go along with that. When they have the law on their side, ok, until then, nope.

Our family had land in New France, which was seized by the British to make Canada. That land happens to now be an upscale residential development in Montreal. Do I have a right to all their property tomorrow? If not, why not? I'm using the Six Nation's logic. I have unceded land in Montreal. Gimme gimme! Maybe I'll blockade something and extort people!

No, Indians (a DNA based status) should not have powers above anyone else. I can't just demand money and interrupt business. Niether should they.

This is an interesting point! It does seem strange that often Natives make a claim on land but seem to expect to get to keep all the development on it. The incident at the Douglas Creek Estates started just as the homes were nearing completion and not when the first backhoe of land was dug out.

If we do return disputed land, should we not give it back in original condition? If it is developed, should there not be a value set on this development as part of the negotiation? And if the natives refuse to allow this, should all such developed land be razed and returned as farmland?

I seem to recall one native lady protester making a media claim on a proposed wind farm development not too far away. When she was told that the turbines were all leased and if the natives were successful in claiming the land they would not be able to keep them the issue just seemed to fade away...

[Oleg Bach]

This is an interesting point! It does seem strange that often Natives make a claim on land but seem to expect to get to keep all the development on it. The incident at the Douglas Creek Estates started just as the homes were nearing completion and not when the first backhoe of land was dug out.

If we do return disputed land, should we not give it back in original condition? If it is developed, should there not be a value set on this development as part of the negotiation? And if the natives refuse to allow this, should all such developed land be razed and returned as farmland?

I seem to recall one native lady protester making a media claim on a proposed wind farm development not too far away. When she was told that the turbines were all leased and if the natives were successful in claiming the land they would not be able to keep them the issue just seemed to fade away...

Raise the homes - plant a few poplar trees - release a few deer and make sure that spears were provided - no iron tips...and let them have the land. Seeing natives are just fat white guys - they would rather just go home and drink a beer and chew on some badly preserved pepperoni. It's all about money and not just survival cash but dreams of luxury...I was wondering if I should go back to old Russia and say - "Hey you lousey second rate spawns of heathen communism - I want my grandfathers 2000 acres back and an a formal written apology for shooting him for the crime of believing in God and not the "state" . Wonder how much the property is worth now - wonder if there is a shopping mall there - I love shopping, for free.

[jennie]

Raise the homes - plant a few poplar trees - release a few deer and make sure that spears were provided - no iron tips...and let them have the land. Seeing natives are just fat white guys - they would rather just go home and drink a beer and chew on some badly preserved pepperoni. It's all about money and not just survival cash but dreams of luxury...I was wondering if I should go back to old Russia and say - "Hey you lousey second rate spawns of heathen communism - I want my grandfathers 2000 acres back and an a formal written apology for shooting him for the crime of believing in God and not the "state" . Wonder how much the property is worth now - wonder if there is a shopping mall there - I love shopping, for free.

Did you guys miss the point?

Stopping the dump was initially a local residents' movement. It was them who approached the Confederacy for help.

The Confederacy has the clout of course, because there was no consultation with them about the landfill expansion as there must be legally. However, I understand that the HALT group also has a legal angle because there is part of the contract that is not completed.

I do have a question perhaps someone can answer.

Is there a conservative discussion forum somewhere with intelligent people who know enough not to use racial slurs and stereotypes? Are all conservatives racist? Is this acceptable talk for conservative Canadians, or have i fallen upon the Canadian equivalent of Stormfront, the white nazi site?

Are you kids for real? Do your leaders know how disgusting you talk on here? Do they know how unattractive you make conservatives look?

Just some questions I have been pondering. Carry on as you like ... just wondering.

Edited November 18, 2007 by jennie

[Oleg Bach]

Did you guys miss the point?

Stopping the dump was initially a local residents' movement. It was them who approached the Confederacy for help.

The Confederacy has the clout of course, because there was no consultation with them about the landfill expansion as there must be legally. However, I understand that the HALT group also has a legal angle because there is part of the contract that is not completed.

Oh - I did miss the point. I did not hear that part of the story - this is more insidious than I first believed...lawyer -----------------------------------damn lawyers...maybe someone should go and arrest the buggers and put an end to their rule of confusion?

[jennie]

Oh - I did miss the point. I did not hear that part of the story - this is more insidious than I first believed...lawyer -----------------------------------damn lawyers...maybe someone should go and arrest the buggers and put an end to their rule of confusion?

We'll bring the trash to your place. Where's that, now? Toronto?

Oh well, then it's your trash anyway!

[jbg]

If we do return disputed land, should we not give it back in original condition? If it is developed, should there not be a value set on this development as part of the negotiation? And if the natives refuse to allow this, should all such developed land be razed and returned as farmland?

That is a very good point, and would solve the problem of FN's claiming 130% of BC. The land is far more valuablle now; they'd get back the equivalent value of raw land they gave up, with a clawback for aid given over the years. There wouldn't be much left.

Another interesting point is that when the Israelis gave back the Gaza Strip with improvements such as greenhouses and synagogues intact the Palestinians restored the land to its original condition, by blowing up both, even though the greenhouses could have been used to grow food and the synagogues would have made good school buildings (almost all synagogues come with ample classroom space attached, since the Jews value learning).

[kengs333]

Oh, great, jennies back--what ever possessed her to return???

[jefferiah]

We'll bring the trash to your place. Where's that, now? Toronto?

Why would you want to bring the Warriors to Toronto?

[Topaz]

After reading this debate there seems to be more than one point being made from the first one. Everyone in Canada should be concerned about the garbage we produce. I think the companies that make the garbage should be more responsible to take care of it. Remember how we use to take the pop bottle back for refund so the companies could use them again. Perhaps that's the way to go, since they have said some of the plastic pops can cause cancer. As far as the First Nation, CHILL! There are some of you just mention the First Nation people in any content and you fly off the handle and start bad-mouthing them! A lot of the problems we have today were caused by England and the past governments of Canada! When giving land to the First People, the government was not always truthful and more that once screwed them by not writing down the land that was given to them. This is a very complicated and long topic and the Feds have to do a better jobs of explaining to the public about this. I'm more than willing for the First Nation to get what is theirs, but as the same time, I don't want to be take advantage of either. I often wondered how people would think differently, if they had to switch places with the First Nations for a week, especially, the ones up north.

[Wild Bill]

I do have a question perhaps someone can answer.

Is there a conservative discussion forum somewhere with intelligent people who know enough not to use racial slurs and stereotypes? Are all conservatives racist? Is this acceptable talk for conservative Canadians, or have i fallen upon the Canadian equivalent of Stormfront, the white nazi site?

Are you kids for real? Do your leaders know how disgusting you talk on here? Do they know how unattractive you make conservatives look?

Just some questions I have been pondering. Carry on as you like ... just wondering.

Well, I can only speak for myself. I don't consider simply disagreeing with Jennie enough to make me a racist! I can accept that God might be female but I doubt if she's Jennie.

I think her problem and that of many of the native people is exactly that. They have a total faith that they are absolutely right in everything they believe and that any non-native must automatically be wrong. Doesn't leave much room for argument, let alone land claim negotiations.

That being the case, I suspect Jennie will never find a "conservative" site that meets her approval. If you've already defined conservatives as racists and nazis for not agreeing with you then by definition ANY political forum that expouses free thought will not measure up to her standards.

It's an interesting accusation about this board for me, however. I've been looking for a politics board for some time that is relatively "civilized" in the manners and tone of the posters. It doesn't have to be conservative. I'm NOT a conservative myself! It just has to have posters mature and sophisticated enough to not use cheap, ad hominem insults and profanity as a substitute for defending their points. I was pleasantly surprised to discover this one!

I've just bailed on one board that might be more to her tastes. Here's the link:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php

For those who don't know, this board is mainly leftwing and obstensibly claims to be a "home for progressive thought". In actuality it's more like a priest who only preaches to his own choir. I found many of the the posters to be rude and profane in their disagreement of any challenge to their "catechism".

Anyone on this board who has complaints against the moderators should take a gander over at Babble. It would seem that despite their rules against such negative behavior on Babble the moderators only enforce the rules on those who do not agree with them!

I was reminded of an episode of the classic Star Trek series, where Kirk shouts:

"Not just for the Yangs but for the Comms as well! The Holy Words must be for EVERYONE or they mean NOTHING! Do you understand, Cloud William?"

Anyhow, I'm sure they would welcome Jennie with open arms. What's more, they will totally agree with her and never, ever force her to defend her points.

If she does go there however, I just hope she doesn't eventually die of boredom...

[jefferiah]

For those who don't know, this board is mainly leftwing and obstensibly claims to be a "home for progressive thought". In actuality it's more like a priest who only preaches to his own choir. I found many of the the posters to be rude and profane in their disagreement of any challenge to their "catechism".

Well said. You get banned there for disagreeing with the general opinion. Try to introduce another viewpoint into any topic, make a few good points to support your view, and I guarantee you within 24 hours you are no longer a Rabbler.

[jennie]

This is an interesting point! It does seem strange that often Natives make a claim on land but seem to expect to get to keep all the development on it. The incident at the Douglas Creek Estates started just as the homes were nearing completion and not when the first backhoe of land was dug out.

If we do return disputed land, should we not give it back in original condition? If it is developed, should there not be a value set on this development as part of the negotiation? And if the natives refuse to allow this, should all such developed land be razed and returned as farmland?

That is not true. There were about six homes in the process of being built. ALL but one has now been removed. You don't have a clue about the facts and you are spreading lies and rumours. Get your facts straight. In fact, the Six Nations people have insisted the buildings be removed from the DCE and from the Burtch Tract lands, to be transferred as soon as the government complies.

I seem to recall one native lady protester making a media claim on a proposed wind farm development not too far away. When she was told that the turbines were all leased and if the natives were successful in claiming the land they would not be able to keep them the issue just seemed to fade away...

No, the developer came to consult with the Confederacy. I assume they have a business deal.

Wild Bill, opinions based on untruth can be dangerous. Please try to verify your facts as these are all wrong. You are using these incorrect facts to insult a group of people you know absolutely nothing about, and that is just plain rude.

[Moxie]

Well, I can only speak for myself. I don't consider simply disagreeing with Jennie enough to make me a racist! I can accept that God might be female but I doubt if she's Jennie.

That is incorrect, currently I am GOD please feel free to donate generously to me in the future to ensure your place in heaven. I do not offer 72 virgins but the Scotch is forty years old.

I think her problem and that of many of the native people is exactly that. They have a total faith that they are absolutely right in everything they believe and that any non-native must automatically be wrong. Doesn't leave much room for argument, let alone land claim negotiations.

I concur, they also expect current market value for the properties in question. That's just greedy.

That being the case, I suspect Jennie will never find a "conservative" site that meets her approval. If you've already defined conservatives as racists and nazis for not agreeing with you then by definition ANY political forum that expouses free thought will not measure up to her standards.

Any opinion that does't mirror the far left is "Deem racist, bigoted or hatefilled", they coin new phrases weekly to articulate their "Intolerance" against free speech.

It's an interesting accusation about this board for me, however. I've been looking for a politics board for some time that is relatively "civilized" in the manners and tone of the posters. It doesn't have to be conservative. I'm NOT a conservative myself! It just has to have posters mature and sophisticated enough to not use cheap, ad hominem insults and profanity as a substitute for defending their points. I was pleasantly surprised to discover this one!

I love this forum, most members are reasonably polite with out the group hug and kisses at the end of their posts.

I've just bailed on one board that might be more to her tastes. Here's the link:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php

I'd rather attend a Born Again Prayer Meeting or get a root canal without freezing than read that forum.

For those who don't know, this board is mainly leftwing and obstensibly claims to be a "home for progressive thought". In actuality it's more like a priest who only preaches to his own choir. I found many of the the posters to be rude and profane in their disagreement of any challenge to their "catechism".

Anyone on this board who has complaints against the moderators should take a gander over at Babble. It would seem that despite their rules against such negative behavior on Babble the moderators only enforce the rules on those who do not agree with them!

The moderator doesn't even pretend to be unbiased, it's her way or the highway. A very unpleasant forum that shall never grow beyond it's current five posters.

The Natives have to stop using tactics that disrupt society, it only does their cause further harm. No one likes a bully, and that is how they are behaving.

[jennie]

After reading this debate there seems to be more than one point being made from the first one. Everyone in Canada should be concerned about the garbage we produce. I think the companies that make the garbage should be more responsible to take care of it. Remember how we use to take the pop bottle back for refund so the companies could use them again. Perhaps that's the way to go, since they have said some of the plastic pops can cause cancer.

Absolutely! And I vote every town incl Toronto, have to build containers for its own trash and bury it in their own back yard, if they think it's so 'safe' to bury it in someone else's.

As far as the First Nation, CHILL! There are some of you just mention the First Nation people in any content and you fly off the handle and start bad-mouthing them! A lot of the problems we have today were caused by England and the past governments of Canada! When giving land to the First People, the government was not always truthful and more that once screwed them by not writing down the land that was given to them. This is a very complicated and long topic and the Feds have to do a better jobs of explaining to the public about this. I'm more than willing for the First Nation to get what is theirs, but as the same time, I don't want to be take advantage of either. I often wondered how people would think differently, if they had to switch places with the First Nations for a week, especially, the ones up north.

I couldn't agree more.

Edited November 19, 2007 by jennie

[geoffrey]

A lot of the problems we have today were caused by England and the past governments of Canada!

I know! I mean, civilization has been such a plague on us. Most Indian groups out west were not much more socially advanced than elephants are now and in the East they were remarkably similar to the level of European development 20,000a prior. I have no problem with Indians having their land if they want to live a traditional lifestyle, but that means no health care, no education, no clothing or weapons... they can have some spears and they can make their clothes out of what they catch. If they choose to farm, so be it, but a bad crop will mean their death.

You can't just take the good from one and the good from another and expect everyone else to pay for it.

I often wondered how people would think differently, if they had to switch places with the First Nations for a week, especially, the ones up north.

I'd start by using all my racial privledges to actually live a decent life.