gc1765 Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I know! I mean, civilization has been such a plague on us. Most Indian groups out west were not much more socially advanced than elephants are now and in the East they were remarkably similar to the level of European development 20,000a prior. I have no problem with Indians having their land if they want to live a traditional lifestyle, but that means no health care, no education, no clothing or weapons... they can have some spears and they can make their clothes out of what they catch. If they choose to farm, so be it, but a bad crop will mean their death. I've never been able to understand this argument. We ALL benefit from industrialization, so why shouldn't Natives benefit too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 I know! I mean, civilization has been such a plague on us. Most Indian groups out west were not much more socially advanced than elephants are now and in the East they were remarkably similar to the level of European development 20,000a prior. I have no problem with Indians having their land if they want to live a traditional lifestyle, but that means no health care, no education, no clothing or weapons... they can have some spears and they can make their clothes out of what they catch. If they choose to farm, so be it, but a bad crop will mean their death.You can't just take the good from one and the good from another and expect everyone else to pay for it. I'd start by using all my racial privledges to actually live a decent life. geoffrey, you are an ignorant little puke. And I mean ignorant in the 'unknowing' sense, and 'puke' in the uncaring sense. It is one thing not to know, and quite another to not care that you don't know. Let's see ... by your rationale 'They can have their land IF they want to live a traditional lifestyle' ... it is none of our business what they do with their own land, anymore than it is their business what we do with ours (assuming we can prove valid title, of course). Get off your friggen high horse that "WE" get to decide. We don't: The law does. By analogy, we can only have OUR land (if we have any) if we live the lives of our ancestors: Heads on pikes anyone? We Euros were good at that back in the day! Of course we downsized to scalps in North America because heads were too hard to transport the longer distances. Traditionally too, our ancestors used the streets as toilets, their wives as punching bags and their kids as slaves. Ordinary working people were ruled by corrupt failed aristocrats (eg, the "Family Compact"). Oh HURRAH FOR 'CIVILIZATION'! No, contrary to popular EuroMyth we did not bring civilization to North America: It was here already and we tried our best to destroy it. Witness, for example, the Edwards Landfill protest, the subject of this thread. 'Western civilization', as the corporatocracy likes to call itself, put a toxic landfill in the crook of a bend of the Grand River, a pathetically loutish and uncivilized thing to do. And now the same 'western civilization', acknowledging that the previous landfill is a leaky, toxic mess, has expanded the landfill to gargantuan size and put in a flimsy little liner. Hooray for civilization. Another environmental disaster in the making. In case we all haven't figured it out yet ... "western civilization" is just the propaganda name for corporate profits at all costs. Nothing civilized about it at all. Just the same old feudal cr.ap. And fortunately, our more civilized Indigenous neighbours have had enough of that and they are putting their foot down. We all stand to benefit from their stewardship of the land and environment, because there is no stewardship in the 'western civilization' theftocracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 It is my great pleasure to report that a team of protesters including Six Nations Confederacy people and residents of Haldimand County (HALT) have stopped trucks from delivering garbage to the recently expanded Edwards landfill.The landfill operators agree to halt work until next week, and to consult with the Six Nations Confederacy's development team. If work resumes without an agreement, there will be further protest action. ************** Today they achieved a temporary success. More to come ... Breaking the law and obstruction are "successes"? Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 (edited) Breaking the law and obstruction are "successes"? Go figure. Well then just give me your address and we'll send the trucks full of toxic trash to be buried in your back yard! Then we'll see how quickly you change your mind about democratic civil disobedience! The land is in dispute. There should legally be no development (eg expansion of a landfill) on land that is in dispute, without consultation with Six Nations. Consultation did not happen prior to the expansion, so the Six Nations Confederacy is legally halting any further dumping until that consultation occurs, as they have halted development elsewhere. They are doing this with full support and participation of the local residents, because the old dump and the new expansion are both environmental disasters from the getgo. Edited November 19, 2007 by jennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posit Posted November 19, 2007 Report Share Posted November 19, 2007 (edited) Breaking the law and obstruction are "successes"? Go figure. No laws were broken. A protest occurred on lands to which the public have a right of access. Put that myth down the toilet will ya... Dumps are not a good thing. Unregulated poisonous toxic cesspools beside a major river are even worse. Unregulated poisonous cesspool dumps where Toronto (which typically diverts less than 20% of their garbage from land fills) has liberty to send anything they want is a disaster waiting to happen. Toronto closed a number of dumps that could easily be mined and reconditioned to hold another 10-20 years of their waste. They won't do that however, not because it is the cost-effective thing to do, or that it might be a reasonable thing to expect, but because garbage is bad for development. It is bad for investment in their city as they claim to be the cleanest city in North America - another myth. Yet the provincial government bows down to them and gives them expansion without requiring the completion of an environmental assessment - something even your grandmother would require if she decided to change the creek behind her house. No, only the citizens can stand up against government when it is corrupt and uncaring for our future and our kids' futures. Having not only an ally but the rightful owner stand up and say enough...IS a good thing.....and I sense that those that oppose this alliance are less concerned with their prejudices dominating their thought processes than they are about using common sense when deciding to allow a poisonous toxic dump next to someone's drinking water....but then again...I'm discussing this with people who are happy the government dumps piss and shit and other chemically fortified pharmaceutical sewage in their drinking water...... I would suggest that we are not EVEN as civilized as the natives our ancestors met when they first came here from the old country. Edited November 19, 2007 by Posit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Dumps are not a good thing. Unregulated poisonous toxic cesspools beside a major river are even worse. Unregulated poisonous cesspool dumps where Toronto (which typically diverts less than 20% of their garbage from land fills) has liberty to send anything they want is a disaster waiting to happen. Id like to know how much garbage you and all of the people there produce on a weekly basis, and just exactly how did everyone get to the proest site? Bike, walk? I doubt it. No, only the citizens can stand up against government when it is corrupt and uncaring for our future and our kids' futures. Having not only an ally but the rightful owner stand up and say enough...IS a good thing.....and I sense that those that oppose this alliance are less concerned with their prejudices dominating their thought processes than they are about using common sense when deciding to allow a poisonous toxic dump next to someone's drinking water....but then again...I'm discussing this with people who are happy the government dumps piss and shit and other chemically fortified pharmaceutical sewage in their drinking water...... members of Six Nations have made it clear, though, that they are not "Canadians" and since the problem lies outside of their territory, they have no right in getting involves; hence, what they were doing was technically illegal, was it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Well then just give me your address and we'll send the trucks full of toxic trash to be buried in your back yard! Then we'll see how quickly you change your mind about democratic civil disobedience! Don't you live in downtown Hamilton? The land is in dispute. There should legally be no development (eg expansion of a landfill) on land that is in dispute, without consultation with Six Nations. Consultation did not happen prior to the expansion, so the Six Nations Confederacy is legally halting any further dumping until that consultation occurs, as they have halted development elsewhere. They are doing this with full support and participation of the local residents, because the old dump and the new expansion are both environmental disasters from the getgo. Hardly, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of those people are leary about having Six Nations on their side, considering general bad image that they bring to any issue. Just like with Red Hill, when they started going on about it being a sacred burial ground--if there were any burials there, it would have been for the Neutrals who the Iroquois conveniently slaughtered in order to take their land--and how it was Indian land. That ruined years of hard work by Friends of the Red Hill Valley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posit Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Don't you live in downtown Hamilton? Hardly, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of those people are leary about having Six Nations on their side, considering general bad image that they bring to any issue. Just like with Red Hill, when they started going on about it being a sacred burial ground--if there were any burials there, it would have been for the Neutrals who the Iroquois conveniently slaughtered in order to take their land--and how it was Indian land. That ruined years of hard work by Friends of the Red Hill Valley. Both the federal and provincial governments - politicians AND bureaucrats - have a high regard for Six Nations people. Out side of Caledonian, Six Nations has a huge support base from people who not only support lands claims settlements, but whom also see Six Nations as a sovereign entity. You must be from Caledonia or the immediate vicinity, since only people from that area are as narrow-minded and bitter as you present your self to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Both the federal and provincial governments - politicians AND bureaucrats - have a high regard for Six Nations people. Out side of Caledonian, Six Nations has a huge support base from people who not only support lands claims settlements, but whom also see Six Nations as a sovereign entity. You must be from Caledonia or the immediate vicinity, since only people from that area are as narrow-minded and bitter as you present your self to be. Oh, this I'd like to see proof of--huge support base, you say? Perhaps in the Communist and Anarchist "communities," but I think it's safe to say that the average Canadian resident outside of Caledonia looks upon the Six Nations with digust. Sorry, I'm neither narrow-minded or bitter; need I explain again that I'm more well read than you, that I read books on a wide variety of topics. My issue is specifically in which the Six Nations conducts itslef; I don't care for anyone who wants to tear Canada apart, and have every right to feel that way. The only real hatred, bitterness and bigotry that I've seen has come from members of Six Nations and their supporters. That's the simple fact of the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posit Posted November 20, 2007 Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Oh, this I'd like to see proof of--huge support base, you say? Perhaps in the Communist and Anarchist "communities," but I think it's safe to say that the average Canadian resident outside of Caledonia looks upon the Six Nations with digust. Sorry, I'm neither narrow-minded or bitter; need I explain again that I'm more well read than you, that I read books on a wide variety of topics. My issue is specifically in which the Six Nations conducts itslef; I don't care for anyone who wants to tear Canada apart, and have every right to feel that way. The only real hatred, bitterness and bigotry that I've seen has come from members of Six Nations and their supporters. That's the simple fact of the matter. ....but I think it's safe to say that the average Canadian resident outside of Caledonia.... I believe you have a problem with the ~thinking~ aspect. You must be reading comic books since there is little available in current texts on Six Nations specifically, other than a few goings on about Joseph Brant. Your library research is also sucky since anything contained there is largely prejudicial against native people in general, save and except Mann and a few other anthropologists and linguists. However, the importance of anthropology - especially where is concerns the Iroquois Confederacy (or the Haudenonsaunee as they like to call themselves) - is that it undoes the biased historical texts and replaces with a more accurate account of the Confederacy, its society and world views, its pre- and post contact history and quantifies it through archaeology using our own colonial texts. If there is one thing learned in researching my thesis, it is that there are hidden lines in many of the historical records that indicate how enamored many bureaucrats, statesmen and politicians were with the Confederacy society. Having read a great part of the Jesuit Relations as well, it is easy to see how the Jesuits in France edited the missionary accounts to portray the natives as savages when in reality the Jesuits that came here were convinced that they had entered Paradise. You really should take another look at yourself, since everything you write is smothered in hatred and xenophobic overtones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Oh, this I'd like to see proof of--huge support base, you say? Perhaps in the Communist and Anarchist "communities," but I think it's safe to say that the average Canadian resident outside of Caledonia looks upon the Six Nations with digust. Sorry, I'm neither narrow-minded or bitter; need I explain again that I'm more well read than you, that I read books on a wide variety of topics. My issue is specifically in which the Six Nations conducts itslef; I don't care for anyone who wants to tear Canada apart, and have every right to feel that way. The only real hatred, bitterness and bigotry that I've seen has come from members of Six Nations and their supporters. That's the simple fact of the matter. Agreed, posit. As for "anyone who wants to tear Canada apart" ... that would be Canada's fault and responsibility. You don't kidnap and murder people's children, steal their land, outlaw their religion and governance, language and culture, denigrate, dismiss and deny them their rights, and then expect them to come sucking up wanting to be 'one of us'. Get real, kengs. You still have your head in those pink clouds of lies that our governments have fed us. This is the REAL history of Canada, and Canada now reaps what it sowed! And the vast majority of Canadians know it. Those who don't are choosing not to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2007 Oh and btw ... the local and Six Nations protestors were out there again today, and no truck came in. The owner is making himself scarce, and the media hasn't clued in to this story at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Agreed, posit. As for "anyone who wants to tear Canada apart" ... that would be Canada's fault and responsibility. You don't kidnap and murder people's children, steal their land, outlaw their religion and governance, language and culture, denigrate, dismiss and deny them their rights, and then expect them to come sucking up wanting to be 'one of us'. Get real, kengs. You still have your head in those pink clouds of lies that our governments have fed us. This is the REAL history of Canada, and Canada now reaps what it sowed! And the vast majority of Canadians know it. Those who don't are choosing not to see. Oh, yeah, that's me; I just lap up all the propaganda that the government churns out and I have no real understanding of Canadian history... Sorry, the reason I have a problem with the whole Caledonia issue is because I do have a real understanding of Canadian history, and I know the idealized pap that you people put out about the Iroquois is fabricated and meant to deceive the Canadian people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posit Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Oh, yeah, that's me; I just lap up all the propaganda that the government churns out and I have no real understanding of Canadian history... Sorry, the reason I have a problem with the whole Caledonia issue is because I do have a real understanding of Canadian history, and I know the idealized pap that you people put out about the Iroquois is fabricated and meant to deceive the Canadian people. What I have been teaching you is the hidden history of the Confederacy that government and educators have hidden from us all. They prefer the pan-indian is a noble savage views and are deathly afraid tht if you knew the truth, you might want to emulate them. (Although in your case your family history would disqualify you.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 What I have been teaching you is the hidden history of the Confederacy that government and educators have hidden from us all. They prefer the pan-indian is a noble savage views and are deathly afraid tht if you knew the truth, you might want to emulate them. (Although in your case your family history would disqualify you.) I don't recall you teaching me or anyone else here much of anything. I'm not quite sure what you mean about "hidden history"--I suppose these are the "oral" myths and legends that have supposedly been passed down through the generations? That's very quaint, but I think we've already had a discussion on the unreliability of "oral history" so I'm not sure you're accomplishing much by dredging this up again. I'm quite certain that knowing the truth--I'm quite certain I already do--about the Iroquois would not make me "want to emulate them". In fact, I'm quite proud of my heritage, my ancestor's choice to see the Truth in Protestant Christianity and to endure persecution, displacement and war while being dutiful, sober, hardworking farmers. Doesn't bother me that this disqualifies me from being what you claim I "might want to emulate". You might want to explain to the others here what you mean by: "Although in your case your family history would disqualify you." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Oh, yeah, that's me; I just lap up all the propaganda that the government churns out and I have no real understanding of Canadian history... Sorry, the reason I have a problem with the whole Caledonia issue is because I do have a real understanding of Canadian history, and I know the idealized pap that you people put out about the Iroquois is fabricated and meant to deceive the Canadian people. This isn't a moral issue but simply a matter of law. We have been fed a version of the law that isn't viable ... isn't true. It is the actions of the Confederacy in insisting on consultation about uses of the land in dispute that follow the law. Actions like blockading the landfill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margrace Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Oh, yeah, that's me; I just lap up all the propaganda that the government churns out and I have no real understanding of Canadian history... Sorry, the reason I have a problem with the whole Caledonia issue is because I do have a real understanding of Canadian history, and I know the idealized pap that you people put out about the Iroquois is fabricated and meant to deceive the Canadian people. Right and go talk to any German citizen who lived when Hitler made Germany into a country where there were jobs for everyone. Everyone except the People he consider enemies of the state. These people will tell you that they really believed Hitler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 IMO we do have a high romantisised image of natives, they are not the keepers of the land etc. we make them out to be. These days our political/culture system allows a small band of anarchists to overthrow common sense and define peoples rights, identity, lands and entitlements based on collective groups or racially-based concepts and will always end in division and anger. I have a fundamental disagreement with building a society in which rights, responsibilities and opportunity are defined by a person's racial ancestry. Land claims based on an assumption of guilt are another denial of reality. The goal must be integration, not separation and tribalism, racially discriminatory practices within a sovereign state is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Oh, yeah, that's me; I just lap up all the propaganda that the government churns out .... Well you do lap up the "other" propaganda so..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 This isn't a moral issue but simply a matter of law. We have been fed a version of the law that isn't viable ... isn't true. It is the actions of the Confederacy in insisting on consultation about uses of the land in dispute that follow the law. Actions like blockading the landfill. Personally, I don't even know where you get off thinking you represent the views of Six Nations; you're an outsider. And from what I've read there are some who clearly resent your interloping. Your manic blogging, rabid and incessant posting on this and several other message boards seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to dominate and control the issue, push your agenda, push your distorted and falacious interpretation of history on the unsuspecting and ignorant. You are governed by the same motives you no doubt claim to despise in Europeans. You just can't resist budding in, can you; you just have to get involved in an issue that isn't your problem in the first place just to make name for yourself, just to make yourself feel just and righteous, eventhough most of the people you claim should be "lawfully" accorded what is rightfully theres have time and again proven that they have to concern or regard for Canadian law. Your moral bankruptcy is astonishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Right and go talk to any German citizen who lived when Hitler made Germany into a country where there were jobs for everyone. Everyone except the People he consider enemies of the state. These people will tell you that they really believed Hitler. All the time. It's a situation you just can't understand if you didn't live through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Personally, I don't even know where you get off thinking you represent the views of Six Nations; you're an outsider. She reminds me a lot of Shu-mani-tu-tonka Ob' Wa-chi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted November 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Personally, I don't even know where you get off thinking you represent the views of Six Nations; you're an outsider. And from what I've read there are some who clearly resent your interloping. Your manic blogging, rabid and incessant posting on this and several other message boards seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to dominate and control the issue, push your agenda, push your distorted and falacious interpretation of history on the unsuspecting and ignorant. You are governed by the same motives you no doubt claim to despise in Europeans. You just can't resist budding in, can you; you just have to get involved in an issue that isn't your problem in the first place just to make name for yourself, just to make yourself feel just and righteous, eventhough most of the people you claim should be "lawfully" accorded what is rightfully theres have time and again proven that they have to concern or regard for Canadian law. Your moral bankruptcy is astonishing. AHH ... the ubiquitous personal attack that signals you have no legitimate argument against what I said. I will take that as acceptance of the truth of my post, reposted here for those who missed it: This isn't a moral issue but simply a matter of law. We have been fed a version of the law that isn't viable ... isn't true. It is the actions of the Confederacy in insisting on consultation about uses of the land in dispute that follow the law. Actions like blockading the landfill. Now take your personal attack and stick it where the sun don't shine, kiddo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 AHH ... the ubiquitous personal attack that signals you have no legitimate argument against what I said. I will take that as acceptance of the truth of my post, reposted here for those who missed it:Now take your personal attack and stick it where the sun don't shine, kiddo! Oh, give me a break--you're just avoiding the issue, and it clearly is not a personal attack. You're involvment in the affair is suspect and rank hypocracy, and you know that what I say is true about members of Six Nations not appreciating your budding into their affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posit Posted November 21, 2007 Report Share Posted November 21, 2007 Oh, give me a break--you're just avoiding the issue, and it clearly is not a personal attack. You're involvment in the affair is suspect and rank hypocracy, and you know that what I say is true about members of Six Nations not appreciating your budding into their affairs. From what I understand, jennie has been instructed NOT to interfere with SN, and her efforts reflect that request. She is openly permitted however, to do everything in her power to make our side do what we are legally and morally required to do. I appreciate and acknowledge her efforts, on our behalf..... And yes it was a dumb personal attack by someone who has run out of arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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