Tasered Polish Man

[luvacuppajoe]

Sorry in advance for the long post but I'm just catching up. I watched the video a few times and have some observations.

Seconds after his first contact with police he raised both hands (which were empty) in the air and put his head down in a gesture of compliance. A cop points to the desk and he moves toward it but is out of view for a couple of seconds, at which point we can assume he picked up the stapler off the desk.

He was facing the cops, backing away from them and had his back against the desk (with both hands down at his sides) when he was first tased.

From that initial contact with police to the first tasing is only 9 seconds.

He did not raise the stapler or lunge at the cops to threaten or intimidate them, he was clearly complying but was highly agitated and likely scared (observing his heavy breathing and bizarre behavior in the opening seconds of the tape). We don't even know he has the stapler until after he's tased when he raises both arms in the air to instinctively protect his head.

I find it impossible to believe that his stapler was a real threat to the 4 cops since they would have known that he had cleared security and was not armed with a knife or gun. On the other hand, the cops had Kevlar vests, guns, nightsticks, handcuffs, pepper spray and Tasers at their fingertips to subdue this one man.

After the tasings we can see the cops kneel down and put their knees to his neck and back as well as one cop bounce up and down with his knees around the man's head, as well as another cop take out his nightstick and bang it into the floor beside his head, even though he was on the ground, cuffed and in their control.

It was completely stupid of him to pick up the stapler and if he hadn't he might still be alive today...but I saw nothing on that tape that warranted the cops' quick use of the taser. I don't know what a confrontation with 4 cops is like in Poland these days but given his state of agitation, it's maybe not surprising he'd move to defend himself against them. Not smart, just understable.

The cops likely would have known that he didn't speak English from the 911 call and therefore would have known that speaking commands to him was futile. It's already been reported that they did not follow the rules in taser use, specifically:

- Tasers should be used only against a subject who is actively resisting arrest or posing a risk to others, not someone who is "passively resisting."

In this case, Mr. Dziekanski, who did not speak English, appeared not to be resisting and there were no other people in the area who could be hurt by his actions.

- Officers should avoid shocking a subject multiple times.

Mr. Dziekanski was shocked twice within a matter of seconds.

- Following a Taser shock, a subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily.

At one point four officers were on top of Mr. Dziekanski. Two officers knelt with their full weight on his neck and back.

National Post

As I understand it, a large part of the problem is that border officials can communicate with family members waiting outside, but family members cannot communicate with border officials, which is the problem his mother encountered.

She had him paged but the page was in English even though she explained that he only spoke Polish. As well, the pages are not heard in the secure customs are where he'd been waiting, which the airport staff shoud have known.

cnews.canoe.ca

As a mother I find it nearly impossible to understand how his woman could have given up and returned to Kamloops without him. I don't care if my child is 14 or 40 -- if they are taking a long international flight and arriving to a country where they don't speak the language I am going to do everything in my power to assist...and that means not only being there ahead of time but also calling the airport in advance to give them a heads up and inquire about translation services and where to meet etc.

I understand that hindsight is now 20/20 but the mother's actions are just one more piece of the puzzle that, had his arrival been handled differently, he would likely still be alive.

The bottom line here is that Vancouver will be hosting the Olympics in just 3 years. If this is the best they can do in assisting foreign arrivals at an international airport then they really have their work cut out for them.

So much blame to spread around after the fact -- Dziekanski, his mother and airport officials -- but none of which excuse the cops' use of a taser in that situation, it was clearly unwarranted and not followed to protocol. And without this average Joe having taken the video footage we would still be getting the official version of events which we now know are vastly different that what actually happened.

I haven't been particularly adverse to the use of tasers until now, and I'm all for giving cops the tools and resources to do a difficult and often thankless job but I hope that this guy didn't die for nothing and that something good will come out of it by way of a review of taser usage because good intentions aside, they're obviously not always being used properly.

[Guest American Woman]

The man who shot the videotape, Paul Pritchard, said he initially thought that police acted appropriately. But he said he has changed his mind after watching the videotape, which he lent to police and was returned to him a month later. Link

I find it very interesting that initially the man who shot the video thought the police had acted appropriately; it was only after watching the video that he changed his mind. So while he was actually there observing the event, he agreed with the police reaction. Being there, observing, he agreed. I stress that because "being there, observing" was all the police had to go on. That's what they reacted to. They didn't watch a video of the man beforehand, and act according to their reaction to the video. Police have to make split second decisions. They don't have the luxury of viewing a video to determine what action, in 20/20 hindsight, would be best to take.

I wonder why there isn't at least equal outrage over how airport officials handled the situtaion? This man should have been helped. It should have been noted that he was hanging around for ten hours; that should have caught someone's attention in our 'security minded' world. Then there would have been no need for police intervention.

I think it's important to note that he was suffering from nicotine withdrawl. I know Riverwind has pointed that out already, but it seems to be getting brushed aside. Here are the symptoms of nicotine withdrawl:

Cravings to smoke

Irritable, cranky

Insomnia

Fatigue

Inability to Concentrate

Headache

Cough

Sore throat

Constipation, gas, stomach pain

Dry mouth

Sore tongue and/or gums

Postnasal drip

Tightness in the chest

"Tightness of the chest" is a physical symptom, along with the "irritability and crankiness" that could have accounted for his behavior. But if there was "tightness in the chest," police would have no way of knowing that. Had he not been going through withdrawl, this may never have happend. And as I pointed out, a woman in an Arizona airport recently died as a result of being cuffed. Should the police be held accountable for that, too? Tasers are not, by definition, lethal weapons. The officers, I'm sure, used it with that knowledge.

I'm not saying whether or not these officers acted appropriately because I don't know. It seems a lot of people in the world do feel as if they "know" however; condemning the officers from the safety of their homes-- making their judgement call soley from the benefit of viewing/analyzing a video. I repeat again that while he was THERE, while he was observing firsthand what was going on, the man who took the video thought the police acted appropriately.

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[luvacuppajoe]

Carol Ann Gotbaum's autopsy revealed that she was drunk and on antidepressants when she accidently strangled herself with her handcuffs.

Link

There's no indication the handcuffs were used inappropriately, which is in contrast to the news article I cited which indicates that the airport tasing was used in contravention of 3 rules.

I'm not going to presume to speak for Pritchard and why he changed his mind because it really doesn't matter what he thinks any more than anyone else. For me, the tape speaks for itself.

I do agree with you that the airport personnel should and could have done more, and I hope that their guidelines reflect that in the future.

[Guest American Woman]

Carol Ann Gotbaum's autopsy revealed that she was drunk and on antidepressants when she accidently strangled herself with her handcuffs.

Link

Yes, there were extenuating circumstances, that's why I stress the nicotine withdrawl symptoms. The man was, to my eye, obviously breathing heavily. There very well could have been "tightness of the chest" as a result of withdrawl symptoms. Also, as has been pointed out, the man hadn't eaten for some time since he'd been waiting for ten hours. Was that a physical factor to his reaction too? What did his autopsy show?

There's no indication the handcuffs were used inappropriately, which is in contrast to the news article I cited which indicates that the airport tasing was used in contravention of 3 rules

You use the word "indicates" which means that it's not proven; not a fact. The author of the news article you cited is merely stating his opinion as to whether the man was "actively" or "passively" resisting arrest. Watching the video really doesn't give one a completely clear picture of that. Furthermore, what are the standards regarding irrational behavior in an airport? Seems to me different rules apply to airports post 9-11, and irrational behavior is deemed as "threatening."

As for "Officers should avoid shocking a subject multiple times," it doesn't say they have to avoid multiple tasings-- that tasing twice is against the rules. Seems to me that's an open-ended rule that's ultimately left to the officers' descretion.

Regarding the third rule-- "following a Taser shock, a subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily"-- the man fell on the ground. They had to restrain him while he was down. The article you cited says at one point four officers were on top of Mr. Dziekanski. Two officers knelt with their full weight on his neck and back but I don't see proof of that. How does the journalist know that the officers weren't trying to get the man up but couldn't, much less that they had "their full weight on his neck and back?" There were heads blocking a lot of the action once he fell down and the officers went over to him.

There are questions that we don't have the answers to. Watching the tape is painful. I feel so sorry for the man and can't imagine how his mother must feel. But that doesn't mean the police acted inappropriately. It doesn't mean they didn't, either. But to watch that tape and draw conclusions isn't fair, imo.

I'm not going to presume to speak for Pritchard and why he changed his mind because it really doesn't matter what he thinks any more than anyone else. For me, the tape speaks for itself.

I agree. It doesn't matter what he thinks, but it backs up my point-- being there, and watching/analyzing it on tape, can elicit very different views/responses. The police were only reacting to being there.

I do share your hope that this incident will change the way airport personnel handle situations like this in the future.

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, there were extenuating circumstances, that's why I stress the nicotine withdrawl symptoms. The man was, to my eye, obviously breathing heavily. There very well could have been "tightness of the chest" as a result of withdrawl symptoms. Also, as has been pointed out, the man hadn't eaten for some time since he'd been waiting for ten hours. Was that a physical factor to his reaction too? What did his autopsy show?

You use the word "indicates" which means that it's not proven; not a fact. The author of the news article you cited is merely stating his opinion as to whether the man was "actively" or "passively" resisting arrest. Watching the video really doesn't give one a completely clear picture of that. Furthermore, what are the standards regarding irrational behavior in an airport? Seems to me different rules apply to airports post 9-11, and irrational behavior is deemed as "threatening."

As for "Officers should avoid shocking a subject multiple times," it doesn't say they have to avoid multiple tasings-- that tasing twice is against the rules. Seems to me that's an open-ended rule that's ultimately left to the officers' descretion.

Regarding the third rule-- "following a Taser shock, a subject should be restrained in a way that allows him to breathe easily"-- the man fell on the ground. They had to restrain him while he was down. The article you cited says at one point four officers were on top of Mr. Dziekanski. Two officers knelt with their full weight on his neck and back but I don't see proof of that. How does the journalist know that the officers weren't trying to get the man up but couldn't, much less that they had "their full weight on his neck and back?" There were heads blocking a lot of the action once he fell down and the officers went over to him.

There are questions that we don't have the answers to. Watching the tape is painful. I feel so sorry for the man and can't imagine how his mother must feel. But that doesn't mean the police acted inappropriately. It doesn't mean they didn't, either. But to watch that tape and draw conclusions isn't fair, imo.

I agree. It doesn't matter what he thinks, but it backs up my point-- being there, and watching/analyzing it on tape, can elicit very different views/responses. The police were only reacting to being there.

I do share your hope that this incident will change the way airport personnel handle situations like this in the future.

Let me just correct you all. There is no such chemical compound that can truely be refered to as anti-depressants...there are chemicals that CHANGE AND DULL THE PERSON - this attitude about medications is akin to blaming the rape victim for the crime. Instead of adjusting the polluted and barbaric human environ..the individual is attacked by big pharma and other idots and forced to CHANGE...also - suicidal and homocidal ideation is a side effect of this low doze LSD...and that is what these compound are..tiny small dozes of hippy dope...Personally I have witness three suicides caused by this creepy substance...society should work on what stresses and caves in or "depresses" the human spirit - not pump dope into the cave that is depression...surround a person with wonderful honest and benevolent human beings and there is no depression...unless it has been generated by a previous generation of oppressed parents. Worry and anxiety are brought about by evil and stupidy...and expective speculations that never really materialize..dellusion is the disease that should be addressed - and that mental illness - stretches from the crack addict on the corner right up to the Oval Office.

[trex]

Sounds like an admission that they have a problem, and need to make some changes to prevent it from happening again-

RCMP to review Taser policy in wake of airport death: commissioner

VANCOUVER (CBC) - Four Mounties involved in the fatal takedown of a Polish immigrant at Vancouver airport have been assigned to other duties as the RCMP reviews its policy on the use of Tasers, Commissioner William Elliott said Saturday.

In a statement, Elliott called last month's death of Robert Dziekanski "tragic" and extended his condolences to Dziekanski's family on behalf of the police force.

"For the time being, the four RCMP officers directly involved in the events ... have been assigned to other duties," Elliott said in a statement. "The RCMP has also undertaken an examination of our policies and procedure relating to conducted energy weapons - commonly called 'Tasers' - and will be providing a report to the Minister of Public Safety."

Currently there are four probes underway into Dziekanski's death. The B.C. coroner, the RCMP, the public complaints commissioner for the RCMP and the Vancouver Airport Authority are all conducting their own investigations. A public inquest into the incident is expected to begin next spring or early next summer, according to the province's coroner.

[trex]

Let the heads roll... I understand bowling is a popular sport in Vancouver

[runningdog]

what the police have done in this case is indefensible. Any who has seen the video (and isn't a blatent political hack) would understand this.

[Guest American Woman]

Sounds like an admission that they have a problem, and need to make some changes to prevent it from happening again-

It doesn't sound like an "admission of a problem," but rather an admisson that there's a need for an "examination" of their policies to see if changes need to be made; to see if there is a problem. If changes are made, that will not mean that the officers in question acted inappropriately according to present policies.

From my understanding, it's common procedure for an inquiry to take place when police action results in a death. During this time, it's standard procedure to take the officer(s) in question off of active duty.

what the police have done in this case is indefensible. Any who has seen the video (and isn't a blatent political hack) would understand this.

Well then, the RCMP, the BC coroner, the public complaints commissioner for the RCMP, and the Vancouver Airport Authority must all be filled with "blatent political hacks" since they are conducting investigations instead of simply declaring the officers' actions "indefensible."

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[Wilber]

what the police have done in this case is indefensible. Any who has seen the video (and isn't a blatent political hack) would understand this.

The video is disturbing and opens a lot of questions but anyone who isn't a blatant political hack will wait untill all the evidence is reviewed.

[buffycat]

Well it seems that Newfoundland is barring the use of tasers until further review - GOOD on 'em! Maybe cops are still cops out there on the Rock...unlike the paramilitary junta we are fostering elsewhere in the land.

As well, the four officers involved in this sickening fiasco have been 'reassigned'. Hmmmm I wonder - does that mean if a whack someone with a shovel - knowing that it is possible but unlikely that I will kill him - I will simply be 'reassigned'?

What garbage - all four should be treated as suspects in a murder investigation. How many folks get to keep their jobs when faced with such serious charges? Why have their names not been published???

What a joke - and folk wonder why others have NO respect left for the police.

Sheesh.

[Guest American Woman]

As well, the four officers involved in this sickening fiasco have been 'reassigned'. Hmmmm I wonder - does that mean if a whack someone with a shovel - knowing that it is possible but unlikely that I will kill him - I will simply be 'reassigned'?

Is whacking someone over the head with a shovel ever necessary in your line of work? Do you carry a shovel around for that purpose? Your comparison is ludicrous.

What garbage - all four should be treated as suspects in a murder investigation. How many folks get to keep their jobs when faced with such serious charges? Why have their names not been published???

To my knowledge, they haven't been "charged" with anything, much less murder. Do you have information that says otherwise?

[buffycat]

Is whacking someone over the head with a shovel ever necessary in your line of work? Do you carry a shovel around for that purpose? Your comparison is ludicrous.

Well, I do use a shovel - just as the police use a taser. If someone were to 'attack' me while I had my shovel and I killed him - would I not be charged? I think you failed to see the analogy. Just because they have the taser - does NOT mean free reign to use it. To me I question the training these officers recieved wrt the taser's use.

There is NO excuse for what these cops did - in less than 25 seconds the guy was DEAD. Did you even watch the video? There was NO attempt to revive this man, there was NO attempt to find anyone who could communicate with this man in his own language - for this certainly the airport staff themselves hold part of the blame. Yet, when the so-called professionals show up - it's tase first - and better NOT ask questions later.

To my knowledge, they haven't been "charged" with anything, much less murder. Do you have information that says otherwise?

No - I didn't say I did. I said they SHOULD be charged - for not exercising due diligence in using a potentially deadly weapon at the very least - leading to manslaughter. There is a dead man - who harmed NO one. Four fully trained RCMP couldn't deal without using the taser? Gimme a break - that IS laughbable.

The cops were testing their new toy! Sick buggers plain and simple. Not a good sign wrt our police forces in Canada. Though it does send a message doesn't it?

Your papers please....

Oh and btw American Woman - I am surprised that you are siding with the police apologists about this - kind of out of character from your other posts. Sometimes - taser use might be justified - in this case - clearly it WAS NOT.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, I do use a shovel - just as the police use a taser. If someone were to 'attack' me while I had my shovel and I killed him - would I not be charged? I think you failed to see the analogy. Just because they have the taser - does NOT mean free reign to use it. To me I question the training these officers recieved wrt the taser's use.

You use a shovel just as the police use a taser?-- You've been issued a shovel for the sole purpose of using it if someone you need to deal with in your line of work becomes unruly?

I didn't fail to see the analogy. There is no analogy.

There is NO excuse for what these cops did - in less than 25 seconds the guy was DEAD. Did you even watch the video? There was NO attempt to revive this man, there was NO attempt to find anyone who could communicate with this man in his own language - for this certainly the airport staff themselves hold part of the blame. Yet, when the so-called professionals show up - it's tase first - and better NOT ask questions later.

Yes, I watched the video, which is why I commented on it in my previous posts. What I saw- a good part of the time the police were dealing with the situation after he fell on the ground- was a head. I then heard the guy making the video say he didn't have any more power left, and the video blacked out while the officers were still dealing with the situation. I did hear the guy say he thought he heard the police say "code red," which would, to me, indicate a desire to revive him.

When the police showed up, since they didn't speak Polish, they really had no choice but to 'ask questions later' if they wanted to contain him. The man was exhibiting irrational behavior in an airport. He needed to be dealt with. Again, I'm not saying the police didn't act inappropriately-- I'm saying we don't know if they did or not. If all one has to do is watch a few minutes of an ordeal that went on for hours, a snippet on a video with obstructions at times, then we would have no need for a justice system; for a trial and/or judge and jury.

No - I didn't say I did. I said they SHOULD be charged - for not exercising due diligence in using a potentially deadly weapon at the very least - leading to manslaughter. There is a dead man - who harmed NO one. Four fully trained RCMP couldn't deal without using the taser? Gimme a break - that IS laughbable.

You most definitely at the very least implied that they should have lost their job in light of "such serious charges" -- so I was thinking maybe they HAD been charged with something. Now that you admit that they haven't, makes me wonder why you question their still having their jobs.

The cops were testing their new toy! Sick buggers plain and simple. Not a good sign wrt our police forces in Canada. Though it does send a message doesn't it?

They were simply "testing" a "new" toy? And you know this ... how??

Oh and btw American Woman - I am surprised that you are siding with the police apologists about this - kind of out of character from your other posts. Sometimes - taser use might be justified - in this case - clearly it WAS NOT.

My view on this is not out of character from my other posts at all. All of my posts are based on facts. The facts in this situation have not been established. I believe in "innocent until proven guilty," or at least innocent until I've heard enough facts to establish a sound opinion. That doesn't make me an "apologist" for anyone. That makes me respectful of the law/justice system.

There's a reason why several investigations are taking place to determine if the taser use in this case was justified or not. It's to establish the facts. Once that has happened, we will be able to establish if the officers themselves are guilty, if the airport is guilty, and/or if the procedures/guidelines of the RCMP need change. The investigations will tell us if, as you claim, the taser use was not justified.

Edited November 18, 2007 by American Woman

[Oleg Bach]

You use a shovel just as the police use a taser?-- You've been issued a shovel for the sole purpose of using it if someone you need to deal with in your line of work becomes unruly?

I didn't fail to see the analogy. There is no analogy.

Yes, I watched the video, which is why I commented on it in my previous posts. What I saw- a good part of the time the police were dealing with the situation after he fell on the ground- was a head. I then heard the guy making the video say he didn't have any more power left, and the video blacked out while the officers were still dealing with the situation. I did hear the guy say he thought he heard the police say "code red," which would, to me, indicate a desire to revive him.

When the police showed up, since they didn't speak Polish, they really had no choice but to 'ask questions later' if they wanted to contain him. The man was exhibiting irrational behavior in an airport. He needed to be dealt with. Again, I'm not saying the police didn't act inappropriately-- I'm saying we don't know if they did or not. If all one has to do is watch a few minutes of an ordeal that went on for hours, a snippet on a video with obstructions at times, then we would have no need for a justice system; for a trial and/or judge and jury.

You most definitely at the very least implied that they should have lost their job in light of "such serious charges" -- so I was thinking maybe they HAD been charged with something. Now that you admit that they haven't, makes me wonder why you question their still having their jobs.

They were simply "testing" a "new" toy? And you know this ... how??

My view on this is not out of character from my other posts at all. All of my posts are based on facts. The facts in this situation have not been established. I believe in "innocent until proven guilty," or at least innocent until I've heard enough facts to establish a sound opinion. That doesn't make me an "apologist" for anyone. That makes me respectful of the law/justice system.

There's a reason why several investigations are taking place to determine if the taser use in this case was justified or not. It's to establish the facts. Once that has happened, we will be able to establish if the officers themselves are guilty, if the airport is guilty, and/or if the procedures/guidelines of the RCMP need change. The investigations will tell us if, as you claim, the taser use was not justified.

Shovels are for digging not bashing..besides - they are a very unbalanced and not very effective as a weapon - plus you look like an enraged dunken Italian grandfather if you start to swing wildly with a shovel...you have an image to maintain you know - Tasers are for electrocuting people..guns attatched to the hips of law enforcement officers are to give polititcans power..with out the gun - you can pass all the law in the world and people will just laugh at you..

- you have to have that show of strenth - eg..."I just passed a law against free Sunday parking, if you do not obey me I will have an officer come over and shoot you in the chest" - that's about it - if you resist the parking law intensely and long enough - you will surely get shot - so Tasers are the same thing..you just don't get the big hole in your core. But just like all things designed in our modernity - just like drugs - they have side effects - that can kill you..

- so does the Taser..maybe the FDA or what ever they are called should have a say in how safe zaping a human into collapse can be....remember the electric chair..they thought that was perfectly safe also as far as dispatching a human...well not untill the place started to smell like cooked beef steak and the guy was still breathing. Officals passing real stupid laws are going to have problems with real stupid people who just don't understand how stupid politicals are - so you have to zap the dumb buggers who are actually expectiong justice and fair play - what the heck are they thinking - that they live in a free society or something - the Polish gentleman must have been dellusional regarding "the free world".

[trex]

There is other evidence that these energy weapons can be dangerous. Cops need a safe effective tool to disable crazy people, without causeing harm to them. I believe thats what they wanted to do in this case, I doubt that they wanted him to die, but maybe they went too far. They got reckless and did not have any respect for this individual and even seemed to have unprofessional regard for the seriousness of their actions.

I do not trust their self-investigations. Politics and truth do not mix well.

Sadly these tragic events happen sometimes, but the good thing is if they can bring about some change, to improve the way the Taser works or the way its used, and improve the training of people using it, should include proper emergency response.

Perhaps the Taser should not be used if there is no CPR equipment avaialble, such as heartbeat monitor, or even defibrillator as part of the standard equipment that must accompany it.

Anyone using a Taser must be trained to use this equipment.

Only activists can bring solutions, not those who sit about and wait for them to hold their inquiry. They'll just sweep it under the big old rug.

[Riverwind]

He did not raise the stapler or lunge at the cops to threaten or intimidate them, he was clearly complying but was highly agitated and likely scared (observing his heavy breathing and bizarre behavior in the opening seconds of the tape). We don't even know he has the stapler until after he's tased when he raises both arms in the air to instinctively protect his head.

The video does *not* show what he is doing with his hands nor does it show his face or anything the police officers might have said before then. Your claim that 'he was clearly complying' is not supported by the evidence in the video. I am sure this is the position that the officers will take in the inquiry.

It was completely stupid of him to pick up the stapler and if he hadn't he might still be alive today...but I saw nothing on that tape that warranted the cops' quick use of the taser.

As I said, the video does not show everything. The man was large compared to the officers and holding something that could be used a weapon. The officers were also told in training that tasers are safer than other tactics that they might use in situation like this. If you really have to find somebody to blame then you should look to the bureaucrats that told the police officers that tasers were 'safer than other tactics'.

It's already been reported that they did not follow the rules in taser use, specifically:

This is another piece of misinformation in the press. These rules were recently put in place by the BC Police Complaints commissioner: http://www.opcc.bc.ca/FAQS/FAQS.htm. This office has *no jurisdiction* over the RCMP who have their own police complaints commissioner. So the statement that the officers did not follow the rules that they were told to follow is *false*. The police commisioner of the RCMP has made the same claim. Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[Oleg Bach]

The video does *not* show what he is doing with his hands nor does it show his face or anything the police officers might have said before then. Your claim that 'he was clearly complying' is not supported by the evidence in the video. I am sure this is the position that the officers will take in the inquiry.

As I said, the video does not show everything. The man was large compared to the officers and holding something that could be used a weapon. The officers were also told in training that tasers are safer than other tactics that they might use in situation like this. If you really have to find somebody to blame then you should look to the bureaucrats that told the police officers that tasers were 'safer than other tactics'.

This is another piece of misinformation in the press. These rules were recently put in place by the BC Police Complaints commissioner: http://www.opcc.bc.ca/FAQS/FAQS.htm. This office has *no jurisdiction* over the RCMP who have their own police complaints commissioner. So the statement that the officers did not follow the rules that they were told to follow is *false*. The police commisioner of the RCMP has made the same claim.

Big traditional male bulls should be shocked into submission..there is no place in this highly sophisticated society for males -----I wonder if he was a gay polish guy swinging a pink purse at the cops and screaming like a crazed valley girl who just ran out of valium - if he would have been tased?

[shavluk]

A good article in NP about how the press and people with anti-police prejudice have completely misrepresented the evidence on the video: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....amp;qpid=270491

Sounds like the police attempting to reason with the man first.

I went back an double checked the video on this point and the NP reporter does have it right. Dziekanski was empty handed when he first walked away from the police but he went behind some sort of counter which prevented the video taker from seeing what Dziekanski was doing with his hands. Right after he was tasered you can see a silver object about 1 foot long in his hands.

Here is the video on Youtube: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QPCgwCS3viQ

The officer attempts at address Dziekanski respectfully at 6:22

Dziekanski can been seen holding something at 6:48

Another thing I noticed after looking at the video again: the video does not actually show any of the interactions between Dziekanski and the police because of objects in the way and Dziekanski's back is turned. Most importantly - the video does not show Dziekanski's facial expressions. This means the video itself cannot be used to dispute the police officers version of events. I have a suspicion that this case will go down as a text book example of how video evidence may not lie but what a video does not show if often more significant than what it does show.

Wow!

What you are a cop?

Your spin attempts are a joke!

They were just forgetting their training and you your DNA!!!

Line up on that side please as this side is for the enlightened.

[Riverwind]

Your spin attempts are a joke!

The facts are clear: the video does not actually show what the officers saw therefore it is not proof that they did not see a threat. The video does show the guy was holding a potential weapon which clearly indicates that there was a lot more going on than was captured on that video. You have no counter arguement so you toss around around meaningless oneliners.

Anyone you looks at that video and thinks it is proof of something is guilty of letting their prejudices fill in details that are not actually there.

They were just forgetting their training and you your DNA!!!

You know nothing about police training and simply make up facts to suit your prejudices. Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[Wilber]

Well it seems that Newfoundland is barring the use of tasers until further review - GOOD on 'em! Maybe cops are still cops out there on the Rock...unlike the paramilitary junta we are fostering elsewhere in the land.

As well, the four officers involved in this sickening fiasco have been 'reassigned'. Hmmmm I wonder - does that mean if a whack someone with a shovel - knowing that it is possible but unlikely that I will kill him - I will simply be 'reassigned'?

What garbage - all four should be treated as suspects in a murder investigation. How many folks get to keep their jobs when faced with such serious charges? Why have their names not been published???

What a joke - and folk wonder why others have NO respect left for the police.

Sheesh.

Got news for you, the police are a paramilitary organization, they always have been. Yes they have been reassigned, probably pushing paper until it can be determined whether there should be disciplinary action.

The RCMP has apparently asked the OPP to take part in an investigation as well as all the other investigations which are going on over this. A lot of different people will have to do a lot of sweeping for anything to go under the table on this one.

Love the lynch mob mentality. You have them tried, convicted and condemned solely on the basis of something you saw on TV. Fortunately people like you don't have that power. Innocent until proved guilty remember. That's in a court of law, not in your head.

[shavluk]

The facts are clear: the video does not actually show what the officers saw therefore it is not proof that they did not see a threat. The video does show the guy was holding a potential weapon which clearly indicates that there was a lot more going on that was captured on that video. You have no counter arguement so you toss around around meaningless oneliners.

Anyone you looks at that video and thinks it is proof of something is guilty of letting their prejudices fill in details that are not actually there.

You know nothing about police training and simply make up facts to suit your prejudices.

Actually I do know about their training

I know more things than a lot would believe.

I have spent 16 years in constant study and had mastered many , many , many trades and specialities before I got serious about educating myself.

and you are simply a fool because you and your obvious limited intelligence stop you from analyzing why this man moved away from the police in the first place who he had originally thought were there to in fact help him.

Now as later when you get up to speed and see the close ups digitally cleaned up with the angry threatening look of the soon to be disbanded federal drug police and goon squad you will know much more and realize that their faces are why no inquiry results have come forward a month later - THEY WANT TO KNOW IF ANYONE ELSE WILL BE LIKE ME AND CATCH THAT PART

If no one does they will say ,,,,this guy had just quit smoking and had asked if someone would please execute him as this stapler just wasn't doing it for him.

Edited November 18, 2007 by shavluk

[shavluk]

Got news for you, the police are a paramilitary organization, they always have been. Yes they have been reassigned, probably pushing paper until it can be determined whether there should be disciplinary action.

The RCMP has apparently asked the OPP to take part in an investigation as well as all the other investigations which are going on over this. A lot of different people will have to do a lot of sweeping for anything to go under the table on this one.

Love the lynch mob mentality. You have them tried, convicted and condemned solely on the basis of something you saw on TV. Fortunately people like you don't have that power. Innocent until proved guilty remember. That's in a court of law, not in your head.

Yeah bring Angelo in to clean up Alphonso's mess Hahahaha

It will start and end with computer software close up images.

[Riverwind]

Actually I do know about their training

Most likely because you were at the receiving end of it.

analyzing why this man moved away from the police in the first place who he had originally thought were there to in fact help him.

You are the fool if you think you can infer the motivations of a man who was clearly not in his right mind from a video. You also conveniently choose to ignore the fact that the only audio from the initial contact captured on the tape was an officer asking politely "How are you sir?". A statement that demonstrates that the RCMP officers approached the man quite civilly. We don't know what was said after that because it was not on the tape. But that does not seem to stop you from concocting a bizarre fantasy that suits your prejudices. Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[shavluk]

Hahahhahhahahahaha

You really should wait until you get caught up. You really should.

I heard very clearly:"CAN I TASER HIM" as they came in. Second 6?

Maybe in your species hearing is not as developed. Probably complements those lying eye's nicely?

Oh and by the by ,,,why don't you go start a thread explaining why they should have killed him some where else and stop looking silly in this one over your wish to hurt someone like me?

This is just the tip of the iceberg and much more is coming up the pipe.

The RCMP will be disbanded as they should be and replaced by provincial police with CISA at the federal level.

Gone are the days of Ottawa backed political goon-squads.

Ask Natives what they think of the RCMP and now ask the Polish Canadians and now the .................. UNIONS FROM MONTEBELLO and the ..... it goes on and on

WATCH WHAT SOME OF US WILL YES, DO OR AT THE VERY LEAST ,HELP TO DO!

The RCMP started as a way to bully the natives and then enforce ignorant drug law policies.

Their time is over and their history destroyed.

We want peace officers not goons.

I would hazard to guess I may even incur another visit from law enforcement attacking me with more made up charges over my latest postings here.

I already have 2 video visits previously taped and distributed so that if I am lucky and am used to speed up what we are doing ,,,GREAT ! FILL YOUR COWBOY BOOTS !

Much more going on than a simple website chat room discussion.