Tasered Polish Man

[Wilber]

but we really don't want smarter cops these days because laws are becoming more unjust and un-reasonalbe and a smart person will not obey mindlessly the lawless laws inflicted on the public via polite tyrants that seem to be emerging with the collapse of democracy.

Don't know what you mean about smarter because education isn't always a measure of intelligence but you won't get into a police force now without at least 2 years of college, many of them have degrees and a large number of those who don't are working on them because they need at least one if they want to advance. Knowledge of the law is essential for a cop if he ever wants to get a case to court. Our cops are now having to do a lot of their paper work in their cars because there isn't enough desk space at the police station.

[shavluk]

My be they should be uneducated then and talk people skills instead of assuming university made them smart which it doesn't , apparently.

[Rue]

I don't try to psychoanalyze posts that appear to be gibberish.

Sorry JBG but I was laughing at myself when you sid that. I mean I don't know if I am capable of just commenting on ANY friggin issue without going off on a psychoanalytic rant!

That said in this particular case, I think the police and airport authority screwed up very badly.

To start with the Airport authority lied to this guy's mother and said they had no idea where he was. Inexcusable.

Second huge mistake they made was not arranging to find someone who could speak Polish to talk to the man. People lost in airports who can not speak English happens each and every day. This is why sometimes you hear on the loudspeaker of any airport a request for someone who can speak the language. The bigger the airport and of course the more international flights there are, the more likely someone will speak the language. If you can' find someone you give them a cell phone and speak with them through a Bell Telephone operator...so what happened here? It was not done. Not knowing he was speaking Polish makes no sense as they could figure out by simply looking at his ticket or passport.

I think in this case what you are going to see was THERE WAS NO effort made by the airport to find someone who could speak Polish to speak to the man.

Think about it. Someone caught for 10 hours and no one bothering to try speak with him?

So by the time the police come in-the airport's negligent actions have set off the remaining incident that would not have happened had the airport done what it has a legal responsibility to do.

So now he's in a hyper state of not being able to get help. He's panicked. He throws a chair.

So the RCMP are called and 4 officers appear.The video is damning in that it shows they failed to follow basic protocol for defusing such situations in that;

1-like the airport they made no attempt to either bring a Polish translator or slide h im over a cell phone with a Bell Canada Polish translator, which by the way is standard protocol with paramedics when they have a medical emergency and the person doesn't speak English;

2-they then immediately used the Taser rather then follow protocol which is to stand back and use universal hand gestures to try establish contact and see if that will calm him down-universal hand egstures in this case would have consisted of holding their hands up, smiling and then nodding and backing up, pushing down words outstreched as they stepped back, smiling and nodding;

3-none of that was tried, they immediately moved in and its precisely why an RCMP psychology trainer has already stated on the news this is not the standad protocol they were trained to follow;

4-what is also damning from a negligence perspective is the video clearly shows the police were not in a line of fire or immediate physical danger nor was the individual hurting himself or another human, the only other 2 reasons you move to the taser-yes even property damage is not reason to move to the taser unless it is hurting the individual or someone else physically.

Me personally I do not like tasers. 17 people have died from them. If used on someone with certain medical problems such as high blood pressure, hardened arteries, heart disease, epilepsy, cancer, diabetes, liver disease, etc., they can kill the person on the sport or cause them to stroke out or literally for their brain to experience hemmeraging leading to death.

No its not a panacea or a particularly safe tool. More to the point its show on people strung out on angel dust or crack or crystal meth, it doesn't work, they just rip it out and get even more infruriated and dangerous.

There are two other far better restraint methods. One is a foam spray shot from a gun it encases the arms and legs and quickly forms a casing that prevents them from being able to use their arms or legs. The foam is quick forming but non toxic and can easily be removed. It also has the advantage of full restraint without pain which lessens the likelihood of accidental death.

The other is the restraining net, also shot from a gun which envelops the subject and contains their arms and legs and entire body but unlike the form requires more physical action by the police officers when subduing the subject. However like the foam option it also is less likely to injure or kill but unlike the foam can be more terrifying.

There is also mace which I think should only be used with violent subjects and of course requires the officer to be able to have unobstructed view of their eyes which is not always possible making it sometimes impractical and if it does not completely blind it also can cause the subject to attack with more anger.

Electricity is not safe as a subduing agent as each human reacts differntly to it.

I myself favour the foam method which is suprisingly cheaper then the taser method.

It is a travesty this innocent human spent the remaining hours of his life feeling alone, misunderstood and trapped. Surely we can all concede that point. None of us would want to die this way let alone be treated like this. He was lost for f..ck's sake. How could such a basic issue be so mandhandled?

I am a huge supporter of the police but I think in this case they screwed up big time. So did the airport.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Rue

[Riverwind]

The taser is not supposed to be used unless a police officer is directly in the line of life threatening danger or the individual is harming themselves or another.

Everything comes do to this point. What procedure were these officers told they must follow? Were they told that using a taser is no different from attempting to put someone in a headlock? Or were they told that tasers are a 'last resort'? The difference between the two situations is the difference between some cops who made a hasty but legimate decision and some cops who grossly abused their power.

I have heard a lot of people make conflicting claims about police procedure, however, it will take an inquiry to determine what prodcedure these particular officers where told to us and whether they followed it.

[shavluk]

I dont need an inquiry to say they failed.

They tried to keep this out of the publics eye's for obviously a good reason.

If in fact we find that they are/were trained this way, which I already know is totally false ,,

well they still failed miserably !!

EVEN JUST AS HUMAN BEINGS !!!

[jbg]

Geez, I would never have thought I might die for making a mistake at an airport! Chances are this guy had never flown in his life before. This was tragic, yes. Accident? No!

In these post-September 11, 2001 days, airports require more or less perfect conduct. I don't think anyone can seriously question that someone behaving erratically at an airport correctly puts themselves in danger before the travelling public is imperiled. Note, Jew-haters on this Board, the person killed here was not Muslim.

As far as the RCMP frequently being on the firing line goes, I don't recall ever seeing them on the firing line by the media unless they deserved to be on the firing line.

I mean having to make quick decisions to protect life, health, safety and property.

And without videos to record events, they are a bunch of liars to boot. They are seldom held fully accountable for any mistakes they make. What about the guy up north who was shot in the back of the head by a cop? This was self defense? I don't think so.

Fully accountable? They put their lives in danger every day for you. How ungrateful could you be?

[jbg]

Some of us would rather if Canada could keep our good reputation so we can hold our heads high wherever we travel in the world. It's too bad that Harper's policies and the actions of cops like these ones have tarnished our reputation worldwide. Government's like Bush's and Harper's make the world a more dangerous place through their policies of aggression, exploitation, and oppression, then they have the nerve to ask the people to give up their rights and freedoms in exchange for some perceived protection?

Woh boy!!!

From the actions of an RCMP officer making a split-second (and possibly errant) decision on how to handle an unruly disembarked passenger to a cabal involving Bush and Harper. Wow.

Is terrorism really that rampant that we need to allow our cops to go around tazering people who don't really appear to be much of a threat?

Well for starters we lost just under 3000 people in one day in New York and Washington to an aviation-based senseless attack. Are you now going to blame that on Israel?

People who are afraid of physical confrontation, or unskilled in hand to hand combat should not become police officers. It seems to me that cops these days seem to come in a lot smaller sizes than they used to. It may be that by relaxing the physical requirements for police we are letting people be police who can not properly handle the physical requirements of the job. They get scared and are a little too quick to resort to weapons. An officer used to be a lot bigger, more imposing figure that often commanded respect just by his stature.

So the life of someone throwing things around in an airport is more valuable than that of the general public. I think not.

[jbg]

My point is, as sad as both of this instances are, sometimes people die when the police are doing their job. It's a sad, but I believe unavoidable, fact. However, no one can deny that more people would die if the police didn't do their job.

A gutsy and on point post.

I give credit where it's due even if we almost never agree.

[Moxie]

Tazers use very high voltage but minuscule amperage. It's not the 240 volts which kills when you are electrocuted by your stove, it is the 30 amps which fries you.

A 50,000 volt Tazer might be likened to getting hit by a large insect at 120 MPH. Being electrocuted by your 240 volt stove would be more like getting hit by a 30 MPH dump truck.

The RCMP action in Vancouver seems to be the final act in a whole litany of screw ups involving the airport, airlines, customs, security and police which had been going on since the time the man arrived. Bottom line is, it should never have got that far and he should still be alive. So lets dissect it and correct it so it doesn't happen again.

Exactly Wilber, my understanding is that the Airport is the one's responsible for the situation getting out of control. Immigration Canada treated this man with total distain, was he distrought, tired and hungry? Dah ya and so would I be if I were a participant in a similar situation. Blaming the police for a series of blunders is passing the buck, they were brought into a situation that should not of happened. They had MERE minutes to assess the situation and act. Considering the guy was getting violent what recourse did they have? None that I can see. It's sickening to see groups like MySpace or face book or whatever it's called starting groups that want the cops involved inprisoned for life. For what doing their jobs, it's not the cops-my opinion, that screwed up it's the Airport and Immigration Canada that failed in their duty.

This situation reminds me of a poem, Fury.

"I am judge I am jury says cunning fury. I'll try the entire case and condemn you to death."

Reactionary tripe, hang him high hang them low just hang them before you go seems to be the mantra of the "Sensitive Crowd". I want cold hard facts, not a few moments captured on a video phone. I want the timeline of events leading up to the police getting involved. Then I'll pass judgement, based on facts not on emotion.

[Oleg Bach]

Exactly Wilber, my understanding is that the Airport is the one's responsible for the situation getting out of control. Immigration Canada treated this man with total distain, was he distrought, tired and hungry? Dah ya and so would I be if I were a participant in a similar situation. Blaming the police for a series of blunders is passing the buck, they were brought into a situation that should not of happened. They had MERE minutes to assess the situation and act. Considering the guy was getting violent what recourse did they have? None that I can see. It's sickening to see groups like MySpace or face book or whatever it's called starting groups that want the cops involved inprisoned for life. For what doing their jobs, it's not the cops-my opinion, that screwed up it's the Airport and Immigration Canada that failed in their duty.

This situation reminds me of a poem, Fury.

"I am judge I am jury says cunning fury. I'll try the entire case and condemn you to death."

Reactionary tripe, hang him high hang them low just hang them before you go seems to be the mantra of the "Sensitive Crowd". I want cold hard facts, not a few moments captured on a video phone. I want the timeline of events leading up to the police getting involved. Then I'll pass judgement, based on facts not on emotion.

Well said - I have only seen the stills and not the video - the creeping eye of the cell phone tech is like looking though the bottom of an old coke bottle...we all suspect abuse - but if evil and stupidity and re-actionism is the same thing as I believe - then - time to have a clear look and not speculate but investigate - but who will investigate? More stupid people looking into what other stupid people did or failed to do...Airports have become overly hyper active as far as so-called security..and if someone raises their voice in frustration - you don't send a tank to quell a fly.

[Carinthia]

What I find more than curious is the fact that when the owner of the video turned it over to the cops, they told him it would be returned to him in 48 hours. Then they had a look at it, and lo and behold they wouldn't give it back. He had to obtain a lawyer and go public to get it back. Now, ya don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that they knew, that what they saw on that video, was not going to look real pretty to the public and the powers that be. Then the next day, we have some head cop on TV telling us all, that what we saw on that video, we didn't really see, as they have other witnesses blah, blah, blah. Do I smell a Rodney King scenario happening here? Millions of people around the world, according to the assessment in the early days of that event, didn't see cops acting like thugs on that video either.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Carinthia

[shavluk]

Exactly Wilber, my understanding is that the Airport is the one's responsible for the situation getting out of control. Immigration Canada treated this man with total distain, was he distrought, tired and hungry? Dah ya and so would I be if I were a participant in a similar situation. Blaming the police for a series of blunders is passing the buck, they were brought into a situation that should not of happened. They had MERE minutes to assess the situation and act. Considering the guy was getting violent what recourse did they have? None that I can see. It's sickening to see groups like MySpace or face book or whatever it's called starting groups that want the cops involved inprisoned for life. For what doing their jobs, it's not the cops-my opinion, that screwed up it's the Airport and Immigration Canada that failed in their duty.

This situation reminds me of a poem, Fury.

"I am judge I am jury says cunning fury. I'll try the entire case and condemn you to death."

Reactionary tripe, hang him high hang them low just hang them before you go seems to be the mantra of the "Sensitive Crowd". I want cold hard facts, not a few moments captured on a video phone. I want the timeline of events leading up to the police getting involved. Then I'll pass judgement, based on facts not on emotion.

not a few moments captured on a video phone

funny many doing time for less

if we omit they are police and just thugs as they looked like,,,are they guilty of anything?

OK now based on knowing that they are trained differently than what they did as FACT !

and knowing they in fact broke their own laws of training and even the mere rule of risk assessment or protocol and came in agreeing to taser well I don't understand what the inquiry is going to bring considering this happened to this man over a month ago and if their eye's were going to be giving them the truth it would have been released by now.

THEY HAVE EVEN BEEN TRYING TO INVENT NEW DISEASES TO COVER THEMSELVES WITH

they use tasers to bully people I know as they did that to me.

how many of the others died needlessly because of and without video coverage?

[Oleg Bach]

What I find more than curious is the fact that when the owner of the video turned it over to the cops, they told him it would be returned to him in 48 hours. Then they had a look at it, and lo and behold they wouldn't give it back. He had to obtain a lawyer and go public to get it back. Now, ya don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that they knew, that what they saw on that video, was not going to look real pretty to the public and the powers that be. Then the next day, we have some head cop on TV telling us all, that what we saw on that video, we didn't really see, as they have other witnesses blah, blah, blah. Do I smell a Rodney King scenario happening here? Millions of people around the world, according to the assessment in the early days of that event, didn't see cops acting like thugs on that video either.

I have not seen the video. If reviewed I am sure that all that is seen will be typical..pinhead cops..terrified of someone that sounds like their drunken abusive dad from their childhood - ranting...and these cops know that anyone who yells in public "has not been taking their government medication" - so they have to do what they have to do - anything odd is dangerous so they are trained - and not by the policy academy but by the media. Over and over again you see cops react to any slightly aberant public behaviour as some social and poitical sin that has to be dealt with forcefully and rapidly. I am sure that some bureacrat will talk to some other jerk in Warsaw and say - "he had a history of mental illness" that probably was recorded after he yelled at his wife and kicked his polish dog in the side - after finding out that the job Tim Horton's had offered him was given to an asian that would work a little tiny bit cheaper.

[Carinthia]

I have not seen the video. If reviewed I am sure that all that is seen will be typical..pinhead cops..terrified of someone that sounds like their drunken abusive dad from their childhood - ranting...and these cops know that anyone who yells in public "has not been taking their government medication" - so they have to do what they have to do - anything odd is dangerous so they are trained - and not by the policy academy but by the media. Over and over again you see cops react to any slightly aberant public behaviour as some social and poitical sin that has to be dealt with forcefully and rapidly. I am sure that some bureacrat will talk to some other jerk in Warsaw and say - "he had a history of mental illness" that probably was recorded after he yelled at his wife and kicked his polish dog in the side - after finding out that the job Tim Horton's had offered him was given to an asian that would work a little tiny bit cheaper.

[Oleg Bach]

My first funny...thanks friend...sometimes I get on a roll...other times I can be real long winded and irritating....The Tim Hortons plug could become a dagger if you let me off my leash - but to destroy such a fine Canadian company that hates to get sued by employee manager types that are disposed of as soon as the franchise is up and running and a new and cheaper manager is hired ----I won't get into that - just don't like their whole front - as if they are real nice guys...maybe they should set up a Timmies in China to provide high powered caffene to the workers that are dulled out by breathing lead...now that would be helpful...then all would be well......or maybe a drive though organ transplant operation for rich drunks from Russia.

[shavluk]

Yeah they will eventually just get down to blame it on the stress of constantly living with the new super secure terrorist world of home land security (homeland obedience)

or with having to brow beat (or your adjective of choice)people who pressure politicians to change drug prohibition laws.

their bread and butter.

Having entire units just devoted to changing the political ehem ,culture

and media cops breaking down cannabis prices to the Milli atom and by their own lies probably recruited thousands for the seemingly big dough only to be hit with reality as the only ones paying those prices must be police.

Again this issue is just the tip of the iceberg of human ignorance and greed over its abilities to evolve into superior beings

I , starting to knowing that the average attention span of the average persons is seemingly like that of a tsetse fly as they will forget this story by next week as more are killed needlessly else where.

As in 2 more in Afghanistan today as some body let out the light armoured vehicles stupidly again.

Sleep tight in your safe little worlds while the world goes to shit because of your continued willful ignorance and more importantly negligence.

Yes find excuses like "in custody death syndrome" instead of " police terrorism against citizens syndrome" nothing surprises me any more.

[jbg]

Yeah they will eventually just get down to blame it on the stress of constantly living with the new super secure terrorist world of home land security (homeland obedience)

Yes, everyone throws items around airports.

or with having to brow beat (or your adjective of choice)people who pressure politicians to change drug prohibition laws.

their bread and butter.

Having entire units just devoted to changing the political ehem ,culture and media cops breaking down cannabis prices to the Milli atom and by their own lies probably recruited thousands for the seemingly big dough only to be hit with reality as the only ones paying those prices must be police.

Does the world center around your bong hits?

Again this issue is just the tip of the iceberg of human ignorance and greed over its abilities to evolve into superior beings

I , starting to knowing that the average attention span of the average persons is seemingly like that of a tsetse fly as they will forget this story by next week as more are killed needlessly else where.

Not sure I understand this. Perhaps I'm too stupid.

As in 2 more in Afghanistan today as some body let out the light armoured vehicles stupidly again.

And unaided by humans what did the armored (Shavluk, learn to spell) vehicles do on their own?

Sleep tight in your safe little worlds while the world goes to shit because of your continued willful ignorance and more importantly negligence.

Whose negligence and ignorance?

Yes find excuses like "in custody death syndrome" instead of " police terrorism against citizens syndrome" nothing surprises me any more.

And you'll find any reason to damn those trying to maintain an orderly free socieity.

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, everyone throws items around airports.

Does the world center around your bong hits?

Not sure I understand this. Perhaps I'm too stupid.

And unaided by humans what did the armored (Shavluk, learn to spell) vehicles do on their own?

Whose negligence and ignorance?

And you'll find any reason to damn those trying to maintain an orderly free socieity.

No but he should damn the cheap sons of bitches that send out "light armoured vehicles" _ What the hell is that? Kind of an oxymoronic concept "light armour" should armour be thick and heavey to be defined armour? Just love the jerks that push this thing in Afghanistan - but would never put up a penny of their billions on a vehicle that could and should withstand any blast - there are military armoured vehicles that can take just about anything - but they cost - and most of those seeking armchair adventurism are real real cheap.

You could pull out of Afghanistan tomorrow - and in a year - all would be safe and sound. Why has the primary bit of funding for Taliban - opium sales and production has gone up...should Canadians be killing poppy plants instead of boys unable to grow an adult beard? Even if opium production stopped - the money to fund the Taliban would still pour in - something is amiss her and I don't like to see little pictures of wasted young men on the front page on Rememberance day...just remember this...we are fools.

[Riverwind]

I have not seen the video.

In other words, your opinions are based entirely on your prejudices and have no connection to the facts of this case.

[Riverwind]

A good article in NP about how the press and people with anti-police prejudice have completely misrepresented the evidence on the video: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....amp;qpid=270491

The Pritchard video footage picks up their voices; one officer asks, "How are you, sir?" There is no menace, but perhaps Mr. Dziekanski feels threatened. He waves his arms at the police dismissively, and marches away. This is the critical moment: Officers decide to apply force to subdue the man. The question, of course, is why?

Sounds like the police attempting to reason with the man first.

Mr. Dziekanski was not empty-handed in the seconds before police shot him with a "conducted energy device," also known by the common brand name Taser. He grips something shiny in his right hand. Some eyewitnesses described the object as a stapler. It is worth noting. It may have changed everything.

I went back an double checked the video on this point and the NP reporter does have it right. Dziekanski was empty handed when he first walked away from the police but he went behind some sort of counter which prevented the video taker from seeing what Dziekanski was doing with his hands. Right after he was tasered you can see a silver object about 1 foot long in his hands.

Here is the video on Youtube: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=QPCgwCS3viQ

The officer attempts at address Dziekanski respectfully at 6:22

Dziekanski can been seen holding something at 6:48

Another thing I noticed after looking at the video again: the video does not actually show any of the interactions between Dziekanski and the police because of objects in the way and Dziekanski's back is turned. Most importantly - the video does not show Dziekanski's facial expressions. This means the video itself cannot be used to dispute the police officers version of events. I have a suspicion that this case will go down as a text book example of how video evidence may not lie but what a video does not show if often more significant than what it does show.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[August1991]

Numerous studies have shown the taser to be innocuous way to subdue an individual. However, the recent deaths have given us good reason to doubt these studies and stricter rules on the use of tazers is likely required. That said, hindsight is 20/20 and we should not be blaming cops for using a tool that was supposed to be innocuous.

There was a time when all paint was made with lead and nobody had an issue with it. However, as we became aware of the health consequences we banned the use of lead but that does not mean we should villify a house painter for using these lead paints before we became aware of the health consequences.

Riverwind, you are foolishly stubborn.

The RCMP killed this man. He should be alive today.

The reputation of Canada and the RCMP is now tarnished around the world. How would Canadians react if a Canadian stepped off a plane in Riyadh or Nairobi and was "subdued" by electric shock? How should the Polish people think now of Canada's police? If a Canadian were killed in Warsaw's airport, what would we do?

After the nepotism of pensions, burning of farmhouses, Air India and the lies of a commissioner, I frankly think the RCMP is a blot on Canada. It should be broken up.

The video of those four guys walking into deal with the situation in Vancouver airport explains visually everything that is wrong with the RCMP, and the federal government. Those four guys have easy access to other people's money.

Edited November 18, 2007 by August1991

[Riverwind]

---

Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[Riverwind]

The RCMP killed this man. He should be alive today.

Accidents happen. The police have a job that sometimes results in the death of people.

The reputation of Canada and the RCMP is now tarnished around the world.

Because many people are irrational and form opinions without examining the facts. We would not have a problem with terrorism if everyone in the world examined things from a rational perspective. I don't hear you arguing that Canada should pull out of Afghanistan because our troops periodically embrass Canada by killing some innocent civilians.

How would Canadians react if a Canadian stepped off a plane in Riyadh or Nairobi and was "subdued" by electric shock? How should the Polish people think now of Canada's police? If a Canadian were killed in Warsaw's airport, what would we do?

We would probably react the same way but that does not make it any more rational. And it certainly does not justify lynching the police officers involved.

After the nepotism of pensions, burning of farmhouses, Air India and the lies of a commissioner, I frankly think the RCMP is a blot on Canada. It should be broken up.

This has nothing do to with RCMP. The same thing could have happened if it was members of the Vancouver Police Department attending the scene.

The video of those four guys walking into deal with the situation in Vancouver airport explains visually everything that is wrong with the RCMP, and the federal government.

Try putting your prejudices aside and look at the video again. It shows Dziekanski had a metal object in his hand when he was tasered. The video aslo shows Dziekanski with his back turned and there is no audio which means there is no information on that tape that would tell you what the police officers actually saw. The only reason you think that video is evidence of anything is because you let your prejudices fill in details that are not actually in the video.

This case is a textbox example of why eyewitness testimony - even when recorded - is unreliable because the prejudices of the observer affect what is see and remembered.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind

[August1991]

Accidents happen. The police have a job that sometimes results in the death of people.

Accidents happen?

And ordinary people, you and I, will pay for their accidents. We'll take the chance of dying. Indeed, we'll pay twice. We'll pay as possible victims and we'll pay as taxpayers too when we have to pay the settlement for the errors of these RCMP officers. RCMP officers can make mistakes yet see no cost; that's an invitation to disaster or worse.

The RCMP has a license to kill, and around the world everyone knows it.

Welcome to the new Canada.

Edited November 18, 2007 by August1991

[Riverwind]

And ordinary people, you and I, will pay for their accidents. We'll take the chance of dying. Indeed, we'll pay twice. We'll pay as possible victims and we'll pay as taxpayers too when we have to pay the settlement for the errors of these RCMP officers. RCMP officers can make mistakes yet see no cost; that's an invitation to disaster or worse.

And how many people would die at the hands of criminals because the police could not act for fear of upsetting your sensibilities?

The RCMP has a license to kill, and around the world everyone knows it.

Holy hyperbole Batman! The RCMP had no reason to believe that death would occur. Claiming they intended to kill is rediculous and false. This was incident was a preventable accident. Edited November 18, 2007 by Riverwind