Should Canada allow more immigrants into the country?

[mikedavid00]

Here's a basic rule of economics - when you have more folks available to work, they get paid less.

In the fifties, women largely didn't work - and didn't have to. The lower availability of labour meant employers had to pay more and so salaries were considerably higher in absolute terms. That's why most of us have older relatives who worked fairly low level jobs, yet managed, without their wives working too, to pay a mortgage, car loan, and to raise three or four kids.

I.e., my uncle was a Brinks guard. Wive never worked. He has three kids, a paid off mortgage on a nice bungalow with in-ground pool, a car, and savings. Try doing that on that kind of job today.

And that brings us back to immigrants. What my uncle did was not particularly skilled labour. And it is those in the unskilled and lower skilled labour pool who most suffer due to the mass immigration of third world immigrants willing to work for considerably less money. Their availability as workers lowers the wages of all lower skilled Canadians.

Now that was a great post.

I would call it a 101 primer to why immigration is bad. The cultural stuff is more fun to talk about, but the crux of the argument is that your share of the Canadian pie gets small with every immigrant that boards off a plane.

(... i'll save the joke.. but honestly.. what was someone doing wandering into Canada with mental issues and could not speak English. How on earth was this guy granted immigration. Well it doesn't suprise me, the CBC reportted that mental illness in Ontario was higher amongst immigrants and they just don't have the recources to treat it anymore.)

[mikedavid00]

And why don't I hear more criticism of the Harper government ? If the perennially incorrect Mike David is to be believed, immigrants only vote Liberal so what is going on ?

They do only vote Liberal.

I actually proved it point blank during the Ontario provincial election.

Immigrants are ultimately here becuase they vote Liberal and keep that political party in power.

If it wasn't for immigrants, they would not have official party status right now.

The Liberal Party is a french/immigrant party.

[mikedavid00]

Most of the immigrants I know are either self employed working 16 hours day, professionals working 16 hours a day or people who want to open their own business so they are working at 2 jobs in order to realize their dream.

I can assure you that I know more immigrants then most of the people on the forum.

I'm talking about immigrants from the third world btw.

Immigrants, as stats prove, work LESS and have LESS employment than the average Canadian born.

Go to India and see how 'hard working' these people are. They lay around all day and do nothing. Life is sloooooow over there.

[M.Dancer]

Go to India and see how 'hard working' these people are. They lay around all day and do nothing. Life is sloooooow over there.

Been to india have you?

[guyser]

Been to india have you?

Who hasn't. Gerrard St is quite nice at this time of year.

yes mikey, immigrants dont work much. Those lazy good for nothing Koreans sitting in their convenience stores all day seven days a week.Even when it rains...oh wait....

[M.Dancer]

Who hasn't. Gerrard St is quite nice at this time of year.

yes mikey, immigrants dont work much. Those lazy good for nothing Koreans sitting in their convenience stores all day seven days a week.Even when it rains...oh wait....

I assume he sees a lot of immigrants at the EI centre standing in line with him.

You know, if immigrants aren't taking up all those jobs they are on welfare.....poor buggers they are either working harder than us for less or not working....all depends which made up argument you start with....

[Michael Hardner]

I actually proved it point blank during the Ontario provincial election.

Immigrants are ultimately here becuase they vote Liberal and keep that political party in power.

If it wasn't for immigrants, they would not have official party status right now.

The Liberal Party is a french/immigrant party.

MikeDavid, then why hasn't the CPC reversed the tide ?

Your silence is deafening.

[jawapunk]

I believe immigration has been a fundamental aspect of the Canadian identity and economy and it will continue to do so in the next century.

Canada required immigrants to fuel politicians' dreams of a coast to coast country. Without them the prairies wouldn't have been settled as quickly nor the railroad built to do so. Immigrants built our major cities and populated our vast expanses of arable land. We have gotten wealthy off the backs fo immigrants just as Americans have gotten rich off the backs of slaves. They built the infrastructures that we rely on today.

Today, as more and more of our manufacturing is sent overseas and our economies are moving towards jobs that do not require manual labour, but rather more specialized technological skills or other jobs traditionally not associated with labour, we require immigrants more than ever. We have an ever expanding service sector of the economy that requires unskilled labour. I highly doubt these will be filled by many who have university degrees or specialized skills/trades. However, these jobs are perfect for unskilled labour that immigrants and teenagers can provide.

Many have professed that Canada should not allow more immigrants but shoudl rely on what we already have. I applaud that sentiment but also think it is unrealistic, unless you also believe that thousands upon thousands of Canadians dream of working at Timmy's in their forties for near minimum wage after getting their masters degrees or pciking apples in the okanagan after finishing their carpentry trade.

Canada was built on the backs of immigrants and it will continue to grow and expand with the aid of the same formula. I am not adhering to unrestricted immigration but certainly it should continue. I hope that many of you are not just being anti-immigration for racial reasons, or xenophobic ones.

Anyways, that is my two cents etc etc.

[M.Dancer]

I remember when we usd to be proud of the number of immigrants we attacted.....

[Riverwind]

Canada was built on the backs of immigrants and it will continue to grow and expand with the aid of the same formula.

An economy that depends on population growth is an unstable economy that will eventually collapse or at least be unable to maintain the same standard of living per person. You can also forget about meeting any GHGs reduction targets as long as we follow this 'population growth is good' strategy. Edited November 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[jennie]

I know quite a few immigrants. They consider Canadians to be incredibly laid back and always worried about taking time off for holidays. Seriously.

Most of the immigrants I know are either self employed working 16 hours day, professionals working 16 hours a day or people who want to open their own business so they are working at 2 jobs in order to realize their dream.

And they vote no matter what the weather is like.

I also know a few immigrants who work as little as possible, drink beer watch football and play darts all day and complain about how stiff and stuck up people are here. I tell them to go back to England

:lol:

Alla you peeps who want to cut off immigration ... tell me when your families immigrated here and I'll tell you when we should have cut off immigration! :P

[jawapunk]

Thanks for completely disregarding the rest of my post River. However, I do understand what you are talking about and I disagree. Economies do and will contract and expand. It is obviously impossible to have neverending growth. However, this country is massive and we have and enormous amount of land for people to live in. I do not see any problem with allowing more immigrants in as I believe it will only benefit our economy and cultural mosaic. I also know that we are associated with being an open-minded and welcoming people around the world. I do not see any reason to change this.

Again, I am not saying I would agree to unrestrcited immigration or that some rules and regulations do not need to be in place. But I feel that we are a country built on a positive immigration policy and will continue to grow as such.

[Riverwind]

However, this country is massive and we have and enormous amount of land for people to live in.

That is common misconception. Most of Canada's 'land' is frozen waste and there is very little land suitable for occupation by a large number of people. The majority of immigrants move into our large cities where space is already a premium. The population density in downtown Vancouver is amoung the highest in the world.

I do not see any problem with allowing more immigrants in as I believe it will only benefit our economy and cultural mosaic.

The entire world needs to move towards an economy that does not depend on population growth. Canada should set an example. Canada population would decline if we stopped all immigration so we would still need some immigration. I am just saying we should make a stable population the primary objective.

[jawapunk]

I don't believe having a positive immigration policy means we are increasing the world's population. I'm pretty sure immigration and emigration imply moving people around. I can agree that we should move to an economy that doesn't require population increases, but at this moment there is a huge labour shortage in many western countries because our birth rates ARE negative, in the sense that more and more people do not have children or are having less than 2.

I gues we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what the future holds. Currently the government is seeing things my way. Perhaps the negative results you envision will come to fruition. I just don't see it that way.

[Pliny]

I believe immigration has been a fundamental aspect of the Canadian identity and economy and it will continue to do so in the next century.

Canada required immigrants to fuel politicians' dreams of a coast to coast country. Without them the prairies wouldn't have been settled as quickly nor the railroad built to do so. Immigrants built our major cities and populated our vast expanses of arable land. We have gotten wealthy off the backs fo immigrants just as Americans have gotten rich off the backs of slaves. They built the infrastructures that we rely on today.

Today, as more and more of our manufacturing is sent overseas and our economies are moving towards jobs that do not require manual labour, but rather more specialized technological skills or other jobs traditionally not associated with labour, we require immigrants more than ever. We have an ever expanding service sector of the economy that requires unskilled labour. I highly doubt these will be filled by many who have university degrees or specialized skills/trades. However, these jobs are perfect for unskilled labour that immigrants and teenagers can provide.

Many have professed that Canada should not allow more immigrants but shoudl rely on what we already have. I applaud that sentiment but also think it is unrealistic, unless you also believe that thousands upon thousands of Canadians dream of working at Timmy's in their forties for near minimum wage after getting their masters degrees or pciking apples in the okanagan after finishing their carpentry trade.

Canada was built on the backs of immigrants and it will continue to grow and expand with the aid of the same formula. I am not adhering to unrestricted immigration but certainly it should continue. I hope that many of you are not just being anti-immigration for racial reasons, or xenophobic ones.

Anyways, that is my two cents etc etc.

Lord knows feminists won't settle for "unskilled labour" status. There has to be someone to take out the garbage.

[Riverwind]

I don't believe having a positive immigration policy means we are increasing the world's population. I'm pretty sure immigration and emigration imply moving people around.

Moving people from a country with a small environmental footprint per person to a country with large environmental footprint per person increases the impact that the same population has on the planet. This effect gets amplified as the immigrants have children who expect to consume resources at the same rate as the rest of us.

In an ideal world we would reduce our environmental footprint in Canada, however, that kind of change will take much higher energy prices and time. In the meantime, I see no reason to make the task of reducing our environmental impact more difficult by increasing the number of people who think they have a god-given right to consume as much as possible.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Riverwind

[Visionseeker]

Here's a basic rule of economics - when you have more folks available to work, they get paid less.

And here's another rule of economics - when your labour is too expensive, investors look elsewhere.

In the fifties, women largely didn't work - and didn't have to. The lower availability of labour meant employers had to pay more and so salaries were considerably higher in absolute terms. That's why most of us have older relatives who worked fairly low level jobs, yet managed, without their wives working too, to pay a mortgage, car loan, and to raise three or four kids.

Nice oversimplification.

The return of troops from WWII and re-conversion of industrial output to peacetime products limited the potential for serious growth in employment. The jobs that did exist had to belong to repatriated troops, women HAD to step aside.

As for single incomes, these were largely made possible by protectionism (i.e. modern mercantilism) and the monopolization of industrial processes. The world (particularly a reconstructing Europe) was left to buy our radios, fridges, cars, can-openers, etc... or do without. But once Europe and Japan regained their footing, things started to change and when someone realized that the can-opener could be made at one-tenth the cost in the developing world, well, the house of cards began to collapse and the value of labour was to undergo a significant readjustment.

I.e., my uncle was a Brinks guard. Wive never worked. He has three kids, a paid off mortgage on a nice bungalow with in-ground pool, a car, and savings. Try doing that on that kind of job today.

You can't. Because the global economy is no longer beholden to North American monopolies. Now we have to compete.

And that brings us back to immigrants. What my uncle did was not particularly skilled labour. And it is those in the unskilled and lower skilled labour pool who most suffer due to the mass immigration of third world immigrants willing to work for considerably less money. Their availability as workers lowers the wages of all lower skilled Canadians.

If wages aren't competitive, investment moves elsewhere. More importantly, if your tax base isn't replenished, social programs (like pensions and health care) become unsupportable.

[Argus]

It's truly odd to see some of the conservatives lobbying for higher wages, after all these years of lowered wages and manufacturing jobs losses.

Now, we're blaming feminists for flooding the workforce with women ?

I'm sorry if basic economics confuses you, but if you think economics is merely a plot by conservatives there's really nothing much I can do for you.

I support unions, by the way, as long as they function in an apolitical fashion for the protection and well-being of their membership.

[Argus]

I know quite a few immigrants. They consider Canadians to be incredibly laid back and always worried about taking time off for holidays. Seriously.

Most of the immigrants I know are either self employed working 16 hours day, professionals working 16 hours a day or people who want to open their own business so they are working at 2 jobs in order to realize their dream.

And they vote no matter what the weather is like.

I also know a few immigrants who work as little as possible, drink beer watch football and play darts all day and complain about how stiff and stuck up people are here. I tell them to go back to England

So you're saying it's okay for you to be a bigot and insinuate Englishmen are lazy and worthless, because, like, they're white, so there's nothing wrong with your bigotry. Is that it? There's the old double standard hypocrisy of the politically correct.

If you want to see immigrants who don't work so hard go to any slum, go to any public housing project. I used to live up the road from one and it was a sea of non-white faces, few of whom spoke much English.

[Argus]

Who hasn't. Gerrard St is quite nice at this time of year.

yes mikey, immigrants dont work much. Those lazy good for nothing Koreans sitting in their convenience stores all day seven days a week.Even when it rains...oh wait....

Koreans tend to make very good immigrants.

Unfortunately, Liberals are aghast at the thought of selecting immigrants from areas which produce - well - good immigrants. They feel that would be unfair to the areas which generally produce bad immigrants - like Jamaica, say, or Somalia.

And it's not like Liberals care about what's best for Canada.

[Argus]

MikeDavid, then why hasn't the CPC reversed the tide ?

Your silence is deafening.

I think it's patently obvious that the Conservative party is affected by two major considerations.

One is that the longstanding effort by the left to portray them as bigoted and racist has left them vulnerable to such charges the moment they make any changes to immigration law which are seen to be likely to reduce the number of non-white immigrants. That's very problematical in Ontario, where there are so many immigrants who vote strictly according to whose policies are best for their communities and their homelands.

The second is that many elements of the leadership hope that they can replace the Liberals as the choice for new immigrants, most of whom are very conservative by our standards, and are not enthusiastic, to say the least, about the elastic morals and the gay friendly, abortion loving left. This ain't the Reform party, after all. Realpolitik is at play with these guys.

[Argus]

Today, as more and more of our manufacturing is sent overseas and our economies are moving towards jobs that do not require manual labour, but rather more specialized technological skills or other jobs traditionally not associated with labour, we require immigrants more than ever.

Your statement is not demonstrated by what precedes it. The fact we are moving towards a more technologically oriented job market in no way shows that we need immigrants at all, much less "more than ever". And, in fact, demographic data shows you're wrong.

We have an ever expanding service sector of the economy that requires unskilled labour. I highly doubt these will be filled by many who have university degrees or specialized skills/trades. However, these jobs are perfect for unskilled labour that immigrants and teenagers can provide.

An ever expanding service sector? Can you tell me how much it expanded last year? I'm betting - no. I'm betting you actually don't know anything about the service sector and what it is made up of.

Here's a hint, though. To provide a service you generally need to communicate well. Most mmigrants cannot communicate well. Many cannot communicate at all.

[Argus]

I remember when we usd to be proud of the number of immigrants we attacted.....

Were the housing projects and prisons filled with them then?

[Argus]

:lol:

Alla you peeps who want to cut off immigration ... tell me when your families immigrated here and I'll tell you when we should have cut off immigration! :P

Congratulations, Jennie, on another thought-free post. I'm glad to see you save your thinking for video games and other important stuff.

My ancestors immigrated at a time there was no welfare, no unemployment insurance, and no federally funded medical care. They took care of themselves and their families then, or they went back home.

[Argus]

If wages aren't competitive, investment moves elsewhere. More importantly, if your tax base isn't replenished, social programs (like pensions and health care) become unsupportable.

Wages for services can't be competitive with third world economies unless we're willing to lower our standard of living to theirs. But regardless of that, services are generally provided within national borders, and can't be outsourced to southeast Asia or wherever. As to replenishing pensions and health care - with taxes - be advised that low income people generally do not pay taxes. They do, however, consume health care and other government services.