Christians in Jerusalem

[buffycat]

I could not resist:

Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

According to Daniel Rossing, former adviser to the Religious Affairs Ministry on Christian affairs and director of a Jerusalem center for Christian-Jewish dialogue, there has been an increase in the number of such incidents recently, "as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

snip

There are an increased number at certain times of year, such as during the Purim holiday."I know Christians who lock themselves indoors during the entire Purim holiday," he says.

Former adviser to the mayor on Christian affairs, Shmuel Evyatar, describes the situation as "a huge disgrace." He says most of the instigators are yeshiva students studying in the Old City who view the Christian religion with disdain.

"I'm sure the phenomenon would end as soon as rabbis and well-known educators denounce it. In practice, rabbis of yeshivas ignore or even encourage it," he says.

Evyatar says he himself was spat at while walking with a Serbian bishop in the Jewish quarter, near his home. "A group of yeshiva students spat at us and their teacher just stood by and watched."

Lovely, and this has been going on for years. How nice.

[Black Dog]

I think we know what the response will be from the usual suspects:

Spit? They should be grateful to be expectorated upon! If they were in a Muslim country they'd have their heads chopped off LOL!

[buffycat]

I think we know what the response will be from the usual suspects:

"Spit? They should be grateful to be expectorated upon! If they were in a Muslim country they'd have their heads chopped off LOL!"

That pretty much sums it up.

I heard about this years ago... I guess some things never change. Reminds me of an old Polish joke - which I cannot repeat in this forum.

[Higgly]

I think we know what the response will be from the usual suspects:

I'm one of those, and proud of it.

Ha'aretz is a pretty reliable source. Jerusalem should be a Unesco preserved site. Get the politics out of it. Even the US, which is undeniably the most pro-Israel entity in the universe, refuses to move its embassy to Jerusalem.

I am not talking only about the Knesset. The Palestinians need to give up on the idea of Jeruslaem being their capital, too.

For me, the only question is who should run the place? Certainly neither the Jews, Christians nor Arabs. Hindus are suspect. Taoists have no leader. Who?

Any ideas?

Edited November 14, 2007 by Higgly

[AngusThermopyle]

That is simply unforgivable. These students should be taught that tolerance is the one thing they need to display. There is no way they can decry intolerant attitudes towards themselves when they practice such disdain and intolerance for others. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

[buffycat]

I'm one of those, and proud of it.

No Higgly - YOU ARE AN ILK!!!!!

Ha'aretz is a pretty reliable source. Jerusalem should be a Unesco preserved site. Get the politics out of it. Even the US, which is undeniably the most pro-Israel entity in the universe, refuses to move its embassy to Jerusalem.

I am not talking only about the Knesset. The Palestinians need to give up on the idea of Jeruslaem being their capital, too.

For me, the only question is who should run the place? Certainly neither the Jews, Christians nor Arabs. Hindus are suspect. Taoists have no leader. Who?

Any ideas?

Me

[buffycat]

That is simply unforgivable. These students should be taught that tolerance is the one thing they need to display. There is no way they can decry intolerant attitudes towards themselves when they practice such disdain and intolerance for others. They should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Agreed, thanks for your response. It's pretty disgusting and certainly doesn't help the already volatile situation. These students should be charged and have academic measure taken.

[M.Dancer]

Maybe those Jews have been reading all the posts that literally spit on christians here at home and the jews, being natural over achievers......

[guyser]

That is simply unforgivable. These students should be taught that tolerance is the one thing they need to display.

These are students , not 2 year olds. They dont need to be taught anything, it should have been instilled in them years ago.

Spitting? I dont care who did it, his front teeth would be gone , along with his memory.

(just me tho, I loathe spitting, you can say whatever you want, punch me, kick in the balls dont care--spit once and you better be able to handle a 45 minute 10K cuz I will keep on running after you)

[kuzadd]

These are students , not 2 year olds. They dont need to be taught anything, it should have been instilled in them years ago.

Spitting? I dont care who did it, his front teeth would be gone , along with his memory.

(just me tho, I loathe spitting, you can say whatever you want, punch me, kick in the balls dont care--spit once and you better be able to handle a 45 minute 10K cuz I will keep on running after you)

I gotta agree with you on the spitting, I loathe it also.

There is nothing worse then sitting at a park bench, and the person before you has left remnants of there visit, on the ground.

The symbolism ,spitting on another person implies, is that you are nothing but trash, so low, so filthy. I spit on you.

An elderly," old world" member of my family ,when disgusted, would say, I spit on you, and often include a spitting noise to "bring it on home"

These kids likely learned this behaviour at home,(parents have no respect for christians) or perhaps as the article states it is societal,

"as part of a general atmosphere of lack of tolerance in the country."

Edited November 15, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Maybe those Jews have been reading all the posts that literally spit on christians here at home and the jews, being natural over achievers......

now there's a crock of baloney.

OOOO posters on a Canadian forum are effecting the behaviour of Jewish kids in Israel.

You could not have typed that with a straight face?

seriously?

[southerncomfort]

Maybe those Jews have been reading all the posts that literally spit on christians here at home and the jews, being natural over achievers......

tongue in cheek of course but an appropriate viewpoint. Course, we know Christians and Jews are bad / beheaders of infidels are good

[kengs333]

Agreed, thanks for your response. It's pretty disgusting and certainly doesn't help the already volatile situation. These students should be charged and have academic measure taken.

By who, their parents and religious leaders who probably taught them to think that way in the first place? Jews have always been hostile to Christianity. This is nothing new, and far worse has been been done in the past. In North America, though, Jews have always been in the minority, and therefore we only see from the perspective of their being discriminated against.

[M.Dancer]

Jews have always been hostile to Christianity.

Yeah, people sometimes react badly to having a boot on their throat......

Edited November 30, 2007 by M.Dancer

[kengs333]

Yeah, people sometimes react badly to having a boot on their throat......

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but it's a historical fact that the reaction to the emergence of Christianity was widespread persecution. We of course don't have the numbers, but a considerable number appear to have been put to death.

[White Doors]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but it's a historical fact that the reaction to the emergence of Christianity was widespread persecution. We of course don't have the numbers, but a considerable number appear to have been put to death.

and the early Christians quite literaly turned the tables on them and did a much more thorough job back at them.

[Rue]

I think we know what the response will be from the usual suspects:

Well why should I not respond?

1. The yeshiva student who engaged in the spitting attack was taken by his father and his rabbia to the clergyman he spat on and required to apologize. Interesting that was not mentioned by Buffy.

2. Buffy mentioned this is wide-spread. Absolute and utter bull-shit. It is not wide spread. The students who engage in this are ultra-orthodox Jews which of course Buffy did not mention. Ultra-orthodox Jews do not believe in the state of Israel and spit not just at Christians but at Jews and Muslims. To try suggest this is wide-spread and that it is an Israeli phenomena and use it to fuel this idea that Jews go around spitting at Christians is absolute bull-shit. These are a minority fundamentalist sect.

3. These same ultra-orthodox Jews have thrown stones at me splitting my head open believe me spit in my face. They attacked my girl-friend at the time for not wearing sleeves and they attacked me because I had long hair and our mistake was being in the wrong place as the sun went down on a Friday.

4. The Knesset has a parliamentary commission made up of Jews, Muslims and Christians investigating how to deal with fundamentalists of all three religions.

5. The Christian clergy who have been attacked at no time have blamed Israelis or the Israeli government and in fact have on only two occassions pressed charges after the Israeli police insisted they would. Most of the times, the Clergy-men will speak to a Rabbia and the Rabbia will demand an apology and no these ultra-orthodox Jews are not synonomous with Israelis or how Jews feel about Christians and it is absolute bullshit to make generalizations about all Israelis as spitting on Christians.

6.The problem when Buffy can't resist and presents stories in such a manner is of course it brings out the Kengs who then write in and say Jews have always hated Christians. You present a story like this in an imbalanced manner and of course it encourages people with hate agendas to surface.

7. Rreligious fundamentalists of all three religions are a problem for the exact same reasons and all three have had extremists do this. It is not acceptable by anyone of any religion and its interesting how the Christian clergy who are spit upon unlike some of you posters do not use it as a pretense to suggest or infer anything else.

Now I want to address something Higgly said because I have told him before I am inclined to agree with him on something which he again has mentioned. The problem with Jerusalem is that it is an ancient city for all three religions and that very nature has made it a tricky place to administer. I have said to Higgly before in ideal world it should be a neutral religious zone.

From what I understand in several proposals between Abbas and Olmert the Palestinian or Arab quarter will remain as it is now self-governed by a Palestinian municipal council and the Jewish one by the Jewish municipal structure and an inter-faith religious council of all three religions will continue to meet as they do to discuss the maintenance and access of religious sites.

Contrary to what some of you try suggest, the Muslim, Christian and Jewish inter-faith council members respect each other and do not spit at each other and respect one another. Fundamentalist extremists who claim to be Jewish, Muslim and Christian have all tried to vandalize religious sites.

The Israeli police have arrested and jailed yeshiva students but it is the Christian clergymen who insist they be let out once they apologize. The idiot acts of religious intolerance are 3 way not l way or 2 way.

You wantt to quote Haaretz then also report the story where the student was required to go and apologize and also point out these are not mainstream Israelis and are a sect of extreme fundamentalists who do not recognize the state of Israel and in fact demonstrate on the side of the same Christians and Muslim fudamentalists when it comes to marching against gays or abortion and spit at Israeli Jews the exact same way.

Now Blackdog fair is fair. Have I said anything unfair? Have I ever said to you or Higgly that violence or intolerance is acceptable if a Jew does it? Of course not.

I was going to pass on this post but then I thought no you want to suggest things, then be up front with me even those of you who debate me. I do not bull shit any of you and am a straight shooter on these things.

When Higgly has made an arguement in the past that perhaps this or any other hot zone be neutrally administered he is not saying anything I have disagreed with. He is saying what unfortunately may be the only way to deal with fundamentalists.

I again repeat the Palestinian self-governed municipal council in East Jerusalem and Jewish one in West Jerusalem get along and work together. If Palestine is to have a state on the West Bank, its people will want to work in Israel and the main issue will be disarming terrorists, these sects of ultra-extremists are at best a minor annoyance and if the Israeli police had there way they woudl jail most of them. The Israeli courts do not protect these fundamentalists and mainstream Israelis wish nothing to do with them for the same reason you or I wouldn't because they live in their own worlds with what you and I consider archaic rituals. However smeering all Muslims, Jews or Christians because of extremists in their midst is bull and y'all know it except probably Keng whose agenda from day one in my opinion has to use Christianity as a pretense to promote hatred against specific groups.

Since Higgly has refrained from generalizations about Jews I have stuck to the political debates with him. I will do the same with anyone else if they don't make generalizations about all Jews or Israelis like Keng does.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Rue

[kengs333]

and the early Christians quite literaly turned the tables on them and did a much more thorough job back at them.

You'll have to be a little more specific, but whatever the case I think we have to learn to differentiate "Christians" who are "Christians" in "name only" and those who are truly Christian and follow the teachings of Christ. The evolution of "Christianity" into a formalized, heirarchical system in which "temples" and rituals became increasingly more dominant over the true teachings of Christ is indeed sad; and many things were done in the name of Christianity, Jesus, God, etc. that has made Jesus look bad, and fuels the animosity and malice of the God-haters and anti-Christians in this world. But the Word remains unchanged, and anyone can still read for themselves what true Christianity is all about, as I do. I belong to a denomination that was born out of a recognition of the inherant falsity of "state" churches such as Catholicism, Lutheranism, etc. and we were persecuted from the beginning by fellow "Christians," then Jews, Communists, Nazis; and now in North America you can add Atheists, Pagans, the GLBT "community," Secular Humanists, Radical Feminists, Idiots, Liberals, Indians, and a whole host of others. Oh well, that's just the way it is. I'm sure if Jews were in the majority, the flak coming from them would be constant, just as it is from the current selection of predominant ideologies; it has little to do with who they are, it's always comes down to the mentality of people in the dominant position; although with Jews there is always the underlying issue with who Jesus was and why they refuse(d) to recognize this fact. True Christians are always in the minority and therefore are ALWAYS in a state of being persecuted.

[Rue]

In response to Buffy's original post Keng responded in an earlier post and made this comment;

"Jews have always been hostile to Christianity."

This is precisely the kind of anti-semitic comment such posts encourage when you do not take the time to clearly explain an issue. In Keng's case he like you Buffy could not resist.

So he made a statement that is deliberately full of hatred towards Jews. He makes a sweeping statement with absolutely no objective basis for what he said as he always does. He generalizes for all Hews and assigns them a negative categorization of hatred and suggests they all are hostile to Christianity.

So tell me Buffy will you remain silent with Keng? You seem to suggest Higgly is in your "ilk". Will the two of you or Black Dog call him out on it? Well?

See I end up having to and I find it interesting because in another post Black Dog got upset with left wingers being categroized but he had no problem suggesting anyone that would question you Buffy would be what some Zionist apologist? Was I. Why do you not respond when you make such posts and acknowledge just for once you did not follow through enough on what you reported? How about you Higgly? You knew these were ultra right wing Orthodox Jews and not regular Jews-why did you not clarify that or how is it you too missed the rest of the HAaretz story that reported how the Rabbia took that stupid boy by the ear to the clergyman and made him apologize and how the clergyman refused to allow the Isralei police to charge the boy and in fact protected the boy from his own idiocy. That of course is what principaled people do whether they are rabbias or priests they rise above this hatred. How about you guys you want to take on Keng or is it always me who has to do it?

Edited December 1, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

Keng your days of hiding behind Christianity as a pretense for expressing hated are being called out now by me.

You made an anti-semitic statement deliberately suggesting Jews hate Christians. You offered no proof for this just a sweeping negative statement.

But you didn't stop with Jews. No not Keng, let me quote you;

"I belong to a denomination that was born out of a recognition of the inherant falsity of "state" churches such as Catholicism, Lutheranism, etc. and we were persecuted from the beginning by fellow "Christians," then Jews, Communists, Nazis; and now in North America you can add Atheists, Pagans, the GLBT "community," Secular Humanists, Radical Feminists, Idiots, Liberals, Indians, and a whole host of others."

Let this forum see you once and for all for what you are. You insult not just Jews and Gays and aboriginals as you have on other posts but now your list has grown to include Catholics, Lutherans, presumably all Christians other then the ones you consider Christian, Communists, Atheists, Pagans, Gays, Lesvians, secular humanists, radical feminists, (do we really think he only means the radical ones?), aboriginals, and wait for it, "a whole host of others", just to make sure you haven't missed anyone. Of course you also lump all of these groups in with Liberals, Idiots and Nazis.

Now some of you may find Keng a ridiculous absurdity at this point but I do not. I find his continued use of Christianity to promote hatred not a matter of being offensive because I am not offended at anything-but hateful. It promotes hatred.

Read his words and I quote;

"...I think we have to learn to differentiate "Christians" who are "Christians" in "name only" and those who are truly Christian and follow the teachings of Christ. "

Tell us Keng why did you hide the denomination you are a member of? Why did you come on this forum and in the name of Christianity deliberately insult all Christians as well as everyone else and then have the audacity to say you do it based on your denomination.

How dare you come on this forum and claim you speak on behalf of ANY Christian denomination. I am calling you out on it. You used words that infer you are a 7th Day Adventist or a Jehova's Witness and I am telling you tonight, if you are one of these two sects that I Sir say it loud and clear, you do not represent these sects and to suggest you are a member of them when you know both these sects were exterminated in the same camps as Jews and Communists by Nazis and then have the nerve to suggest Jews persecuted them is dispicable and odious and you are a disgrace to either sect which never preached any of the above to you.

You are Keng someone past being an absurdity. You come on this forum and claim to be a member of a Christian denomination and hide behind it as your authority to label and hate all these groups but you don't even have the guts to suggest what the demonination is-why because you know Sir if you say what the denomination is, you will be called out by a member of that denomination as a hate monger who twists their doctrine. That Sir is why you did not mention it. It is not? If I am wrong, Keng, come on this forum and state what the denomination is and provide its doctrine to prove it hates all these above groups and lumps them as you do in with Nazis and idiots and Liberals.

Read your words Keng. You can no longer hide behind the word Christian. Its over with the above words.

Keng lectures us all and states..

"many things were done in the name of Christianity, Jesus, God, etc. that has made Jesus look bad, and fuels the animosity and malice of the God-haters and anti-Christians in this world. "

Tell us all Keng now that you have listed all the world as your enemy, do you think when you accuse others of using Christianiuty to fuel animosity and malice and hating God you speak of anyone? Its you Keng. Just like the other posts where you attacked gays as pedophiles and Jews as communists and unethical killers and aboriginals as heathen-you talk of yourself Keng. You are on full naked display and its not pretty and I am calling you on it once and for all.

Tell me Keng are these the words of a Christian, I quote you;

"I'm sure if Jews were in the majority, the flak coming from them would be constant, just as it is from the current selection of predominant ideologies"

You just spit out your smeers and label anyone you disagree with don't you. What a Christian thing to do. What a bold example of loving one's fellow man. Were you not the man who came on this forum who said you only hate the sin and not the sinner? Do any of the above words sound to anyone like you are hating what you think is he sin? Your words Sir attack people-good people you have never met but you lump into simplistic categories so you can hate them.

Your negative generalizations about Jews though just keeps flowing;

"although with Jews there is always the underlying issue with who Jesus was and why they refuse(d) to recognize this fact."

How dare you call yourself a Christian and talk about Jews in this manner. What a mockery of everything Christianity stands for and has been upfront about coming clean on and distancing itself from. There is not one Christian denomination today Sir, that talks of Jews as people who refuse to recognize Jesus as their saviour. Not one. I am calling you out now. Tell us the name of your sect and refer to the religious doctrine you are quoting whereby your denomination tells you to refer to Jews as people who refuse to believe in Jesus.

Your words are on this forum Keng. You came on this forum and stated you are a true Christian and you know what true Christianity is. You came on this forum and told everyone you are divine and know what is true Christianity.

Now I challenge all you Christians who read Keng's comments about gays and aboriginals and Jews and said nothing to stand up and denounce what he says as not being Christian. We Jews, gays, idiots, humanists and aboriginals, we stupid people, liberals and commies already know he isn't-how about you Christians?

Jefferiah I am asking you, at least make one comment to this man.

How about you Buffy? Will you challenge him? You Higgly? You Black Dog? Or will you try lump me and JBG as Zionist apologists on this one?

You Keng either deal with me and answer me directly or I will infer from your silence to this post that you admit what you intended and do not have the moral compass to address it.

[ScottSA]

"I belong to a denomination that was born out of a recognition of the inherant falsity of "state" churches such as Catholicism, Lutheranism, etc. and we were persecuted from the beginning by fellow "Christians," then Jews, Communists, Nazis; and now in North America you can add Atheists, Pagans, the GLBT "community," Secular Humanists, Radical Feminists, Idiots, Liberals, Indians, and a whole host of others."

Let this forum see you once and for all for what you are. You insult not just Jews and Gays and aboriginals as you have on other posts but now your list has grown to include Catholics, Lutherans, presumably all Christians other then the ones you consider Christian, Communists, Atheists, Pagans, Gays, Lesvians, secular humanists, radical feminists, (do we really think he only means the radical ones?), aboriginals, and wait for it, "a whole host of others", just to make sure you haven't missed anyone. Of course you also lump all of these groups in with Liberals, Idiots and Nazis.

Oh puleeze. Claiming someone persecutes you is not even close to "hatred." If that were true, all Israelis would be guilty of hate for claiming persecution in the holocaust. You sound like a hysterical Jewish housewife half the time with these hamfisted sarcasms and grand sweeping accusations. Give it a rest.

[jefferiah]

Oh puleeze. Claiming someone persecutes you is not even close to "hatred." If that were true, all Israelis would be guilty of hate for claiming persecution in the holocaust. You sound like a hysterical Jewish housewife half the time with these hamfisted sarcasms and grand sweeping accusations. Give it a rest.

Yeah but I think Rue is right. Not because of this post alone. Kengs does seem to keep trying to get jabs in at Jews here and there. Here he makes the broad generalization that Jews have always been hostile to Christians. Granted, that in itself is not much. I also notice that he has been critical of Israel in other threads. Granted, that in itself is no indicator either, because even though I am pro-Israel I don't believe a person is necessarily anti-semitic if they don't support Israel. From my point of view it may be that a lot of people who don't support Israel don't understand the situation there. However, he made a post in a certain thread about Rue's ancestors. Sort of an unremarkable post. Probably not very noticeable. Yet there is something about that post where he refers to Rue being a descendant of these other "humaniods" (this was the term he chose I believe) who were alive at the time of Adam and Eve. Now to alot of you that may seem quite ridiculous and meaningless anyway. You may think well the Adam and Eve story is ridiculous. But it almost sounds as if....hmmm....he is implying some belief about lesser lineage. Either way it was a strange post and biblically incorrect.

Edited December 2, 2007 by jefferiah

[jefferiah]

I just googled the phrase "Jews not descended from Adam" and it seems that this is a belief among many Aryanist groups. I am not saying that Kengs is one of them. But it is strange that he would have this belief, since he claims to have read the Bible.

[M.Dancer]

I'm not quite sure what you mean, but it's a historical fact that the reaction to the emergence of Christianity was widespread persecution. We of course don't have the numbers, but a considerable number appear to have been put to death.

Those considerable numbers you don't have were not by Jews. Jews could only execute someone in the ethnarchy, and that righjt ceased after circa 77AD.

There are documented comments by Roman magistrates asking the xtians who had been convicted of trying to burn down pagan temples (in the 2nd century) that if they longed for death so much, why couldn't they just do it without bothering anyone else?

[ScottSA]

Those considerable numbers you don't have were not by Jews. Jews could only execute someone in the ethnarchy, and that righjt ceased after circa 77AD.

There are documented comments by Roman magistrates asking the xtians who had been convicted of trying to burn down pagan temples (in the 2nd century) that if they longed for death so much, why couldn't they just do it without bothering anyone else?

As you know, given my blog, my disdain for Dippy, and all my comments, I'm hardly an anti-Semite. But I'm a little tired of whitewashed history. What many whitewashed history books fail to remember, or more often gloss over as "insurrections" against Roman rule, are several genocides committed by Jews around the time; specifically in Cyrenaica and Egypt. So bad were these events they are what initially began this ridiculous global anti-Semitism kick we know today. In Egypt, whole swathes of territory were depopulated; similar to the Zulu genocides in the 17th century when the entire southern tip of Africa was depopulated; upwards of 250,000 people killed. In Cyrenaica and Egypt similar numbers...usually estimated at around 240,000 were killed. These numbers are horrific for the relative population estimates of the day...in 2007 terms they would translate into tens of millions. For centuries afterwards The survivors of Cyprus would kill, out of hand, shipwrecked Jews. As late as WW II Jewish soldiers refused to serve in Egypt and Cyprus as a result of the memory.

What is remembered in history is the anti-Jewish backlash, that led to the extermination of Jews in most of the Greek Islands and Egypt, but what is always forgotten is the cause of it.

I say this not to bash Jews, but just to get past this notion that Judaism is somehow morally innocent by virtue of historical oppression. I'm a little tired of the politically inspired whitewashing of history, no matter where it goes on. It's like the ridiculous claim that Indians all lived in sylvan harmony before big bad columbus showed up and forced them into houses and free hospitals.