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Christians in Jerusalem


buffycat

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Some dates and names of events will be of interst. I will say ancient writers tened to inflate their numbers expotentially to the degree of the outrage. So if a nun was likked, that would be listed as 100 dead. If she was a hot nun, 1,000......

Most of the Jewish uprisings that I can think of happened while Herod was still warm in his grave......

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As you know, given my blog, my disdain for Dippy, and all my comments, I'm hardly an anti-Semite. But I'm a little tired of whitewashed history. What many whitewashed history books fail to remember, or more often gloss over as "insurrections" against Roman rule, are several genocides committed by Jews around the time; specifically in Cyrenaica and Egypt. So bad were these events they are what initially began this ridiculous global anti-Semitism kick we know today. In Egypt, whole swathes of territory were depopulated; similar to the Zulu genocides in the 17th century when the entire southern tip of Africa was depopulated; upwards of 250,000 people killed. In Cyrenaica and Egypt similar numbers...usually estimated at around 240,000 were killed. These numbers are horrific for the relative population estimates of the day...in 2007 terms they would translate into tens of millions. For centuries afterwards The survivors of Cyprus would kill, out of hand, shipwrecked Jews. As late as WW II Jewish soldiers refused to serve in Egypt and Cyprus as a result of the memory.

What is remembered in history is the anti-Jewish backlash, that led to the extermination of Jews in most of the Greek Islands and Egypt, but what is always forgotten is the cause of it.

I say this not to bash Jews, but just to get past this notion that Judaism is somehow morally innocent by virtue of historical oppression. I'm a little tired of the politically inspired whitewashing of history, no matter where it goes on. It's like the ridiculous claim that Indians all lived in sylvan harmony before big bad columbus showed up and forced them into houses and free hospitals.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with a Jewish pogrom on xtians....

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Oh puleeze. Claiming someone persecutes you is not even close to "hatred." If that were true, all Israelis would be guilty of hate for claiming persecution in the holocaust. You sound like a hysterical Jewish housewife half the time with these hamfisted sarcasms and grand sweeping accusations. Give it a rest.

I made a point Scott of specifically referring to the words Keng used. I note in your above response you ignored all his statements and try to melt all his words down to one concept which you claim is the only one I am challenging. At no time did I state simply stating one is being persecuted by itself connotates hatred towards others and you are well aware of that and deliberately ignored the other words that set the context for the few you selected out.

As for your comment about "hysterical housewife" engaging me in a derogatory comment that insults women who stay at home and try make yourself sound "tough" is pathetic. T

his tough guy me macho routine is exactly the Alpha Male Baboon posturing Iwas referring to. Hopefully we have evolved past this chattering and bouncing up and down and showing are fangs and butts.

Oh Scott since you want to play selective and macho man with me I made a point of taking your tough guy macho response and putting it together with Kengs so you don't have to tax yourself and I bolded his hateful words you seem to have ignored in your effort to memacho man with moi.

Edited by Rue
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Oh puleeze. Claiming someone persecutes you is not even close to "hatred." If that were true, all Israelis would be guilty of hate for claiming persecution in the holocaust. You sound like a hysterical Jewish housewife half the time with these hamfisted sarcasms and grand sweeping accusations. Give it a rest.

So tell us Scott how you missed the words below and only were able to garner from them Keng only referred to claiming persecution and that when I challenged him I assumed it was his claiming persecution that made me assume he was being hateful? Explain Scott why I specifically highlighted his offensive passages I felt expressed hatred and ignored them; go on here are the words tell us how you distill them to the above summary?

Here read them; I put the hateful ones in capital letters for you assuming you have problems discerning hate given your above comment;

"You'll have to be a little more specific, but whatever the case I THINK WE HAVE TO LEARN TO DIFFERENTIATE "CHRISTIANS WHO ARE "CHRISTIANS IN NAME ONLY AND THOSE WHO ARE TRULY CHRISTIANwe and follow the teachings of Christ. The evolution of "Christianity" into a formalized, heirarchical system in which "temples" and rituals became increasingly more dominant over the true teachings of Christ is indeed sad; and many things were done in the name of Christianity, Jesus, God, etc. that has made Jesus look bad, and fuels the animosity and malice of the God-haters and anti-Christians in this world. But the Word remains unchanged, and ANYONE CAN STILL READ FOR THEMSELVES WHAT TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS ALL ABOUT AS I DO. I BELONG TO A DEMONINATION that was BORN OUT OF A RECOGNITIONb OF THE INHERENT FALSITY OF "STATE" churches SUCH AS CATHOLICISM, LUTHERANISM, etc. and we were persecuted from the beginning by fellow "Christians," then Jews, Communists, Nazis; and now in North America you can add Atheists, Pagans, the GLBT "community," Secular Humanists, Radical Feminists, Idiots, Liberals, Indians, and a whole host of others. Oh well, that's just the way it is. I'M SURE IF JEWS WERE IN THE MAJORITY THE FLAK COMING FROM THEM WOULD BE CONSTANT jJUST AS ITS BEEN FROM THE CURRENT SELECTION OF PREDOMINANT IDEOLOGIES; it has little to do with who they are, it's always comes down to the mentality of people in the dominant position; although WITH JEWS THERE IS ALWAYS THE UNDERLYING ISSUE WITH WHO JESUS WAS AND WHY THEY REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE THIS FACT. TRUE CHRISTIANS are always in the minority and therefore are ALWAYS IN A STATE OF BEING PERSECUTED.

You want me to give it a rest Scott, well I have news for you if people engage in this kind of hate mongering including you I will ride your butt and challenge each and every word for what it is.

Edited by Rue
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I just googled the phrase "Jews not descended from Adam" and it seems that this is a belief among many Aryanist groups. I am not saying that Kengs is one of them. But it is strange that he would have this belief, since he claims to have read the Bible.

Keng's racist comment that Jews are not descended from Adam and Eve is one of many classic anti-semitic references he has engaged in. The blood libel as seen in his last "persecution complex" response engages in the classic blood libel in addition to the other repeated references to all Jews as being hostile to Christians and if given the chance would persecute Christians if they werea majority.

His latest references to true Christianity and suggesting other forms other then his own are false should now make it clear to those thinking he is being Christian and advocating Christian beliefs that he is most certainly not. The fact he repeatedly invokes the name of Christ when he makes negative generalizations about Jews, Christians, gays, communists, etc.

Jeffer there is a reason he did not state his demonination and respond to me. Keng knows why and the longer he stays silent the more obvious it becomes and not even Scott trying to change the topic and suggest because Jews in ancient times engaged in war, ALL Jews should be negatively characterized.

Scott's attempt to defend Keng necessarly suggests if any people have a history where their people engaged in persecution of others, it gives us a pretense to then use words that inflame hatred and incite intolerance towards these people.

This cycle of negative group generalizations to fuel and promote escalating cycles of hatred is what I am challenging, precisely because the ScottUSA's of the world who should know better find themselves defending the Kengs of the world who do not.

Its why some will remain silent to what Keng said about their religion, but will make it a point to speak out if they think it will present something negative about another religion.

Unlike ScottUSA or Keng I do not pick and choose I remain consistent and criticize myself and my alleged people equally to others for doing the exact same things.

Given the silence I can not say the same in return.

As for Keng, if I was Christian I would surely want to know what demonination has taught him what he tries to preach to others and ask myself, how does a thread that starts with presenting "Jews" spit on Christians in Jerusalem, encourage a certain response and was it designed to do just that?

Do you think the person who initiated this thread should respond to Keng?

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I just googled the phrase "Jews not descended from Adam" and it seems that this is a belief among many Aryanist groups. I am not saying that Kengs is one of them. But it is strange that he would have this belief, since he claims to have read the Bible.

Oh, it's not a belief; it was just a flippant remark in response to one of Rue's stupid accusations. I don't even know what the "Aryanist" theory is on Adam and Eve because I don't read their literature and have nothing to do with them. Simply put, the book of Genesis talks about another race of humanoids already existing, not to mention the fact that many conquered people absorbed by the Israelites.

As for my comments about Jews and Israel; so I said that Jews persecuted Christians and that they have always had animosity towards Christians. To me this is simply a statement of fact. Of course once the Christians became the majority, the roles reversed sometimes; but this doesn't negate the fact that they initially persecuted Christians, that when Jews are in the majority, Jews are more openly hostile to Christians. Of course I'm not saying that all Jews are the same in this respect, and that some Jews have no problems with Christians.

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"You'll have to be a little more specific, but whatever the case I THINK WE HAVE TO LEARN TO DIFFERENTIATE "CHRISTIANS WHO ARE "CHRISTIANS IN NAME ONLY AND THOSE WHO ARE TRULY CHRISTIANwe and follow the teachings of Christ. The evolution of "Christianity" into a formalized, heirarchical system in which "temples" and rituals became increasingly more dominant over the true teachings of Christ is indeed sad; and many things were done in the name of Christianity, Jesus, God, etc. that has made Jesus look bad, and fuels the animosity and malice of the God-haters and anti-Christians in this world. But the Word remains unchanged, and ANYONE CAN STILL READ FOR THEMSELVES WHAT TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS ALL ABOUT AS I DO. I BELONG TO A DEMONINATION that was BORN OUT OF A RECOGNITIONb OF THE INHERENT FALSITY OF "STATE" churches SUCH AS CATHOLICISM, LUTHERANISM, etc. and we were persecuted from the beginning by fellow "Christians," then Jews, Communists, Nazis; and now in North America you can add Atheists, Pagans, the GLBT "community," Secular Humanists, Radical Feminists, Idiots, Liberals, Indians, and a whole host of others. Oh well, that's just the way it is. I'M SURE IF JEWS WERE IN THE MAJORITY THE FLAK COMING FROM THEM WOULD BE CONSTANT jJUST AS ITS BEEN FROM THE CURRENT SELECTION OF PREDOMINANT IDEOLOGIES; it has little to do with who they are, it's always comes down to the mentality of people in the dominant position; although WITH JEWS THERE IS ALWAYS THE UNDERLYING ISSUE WITH WHO JESUS WAS AND WHY THEY REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE THIS FACT. TRUE CHRISTIANS are always in the minority and therefore are ALWAYS IN A STATE OF BEING PERSECUTED.

So basically I'm a bigot because I differentiate Christians who truly follow the teachings of Christ from those who are Christians in name only?

So I'm a bigot because I belive that my denomination, which relies more heavily on a personal and literal understanding of the New Testament, was persecuted by the Catholics and Lutherans, not to mention the Communists, among others?

So I'm a bigot for suggesting that Jews are no less inclined to allow the privilege of being the majority to effect their dealings with minority groups?

So I'm a bigot for suggesting that Jews deny Christ as being the Messiah?

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Oh don't mind Rue. Basically all the other 5.9999 billion people on the Globe who don't agree precisely with whatever inconstistency he's pushing at any given time are "bigots." I think he thinks Bigots and Baboons are synonymous, judging by the number of times he's managed to drag them into discussions of bigotry.

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So basically I'm a bigot because I differentiate Christians who truly follow the teachings of Christ from those who are Christians in name only?

So I'm a bigot because I belive that my denomination, which relies more heavily on a personal and literal understanding of the New Testament, was persecuted by the Catholics and Lutherans, not to mention the Communists, among others?

So I'm a bigot for suggesting that Jews are no less inclined to allow the privilege of being the majority to effect their dealings with minority groups?

So I'm a bigot for suggesting that Jews deny Christ as being the Messiah?

Yes. Precisely for saying these things. Its called stereotyping people because you think you know how they all think. Its called being hateful because you think it gives you the right to suggest they are false and you are true. Its hateful because you make assumptions about how an entire group thinks and feels.

You did not just state you felt you were being persecuted. You made a point of stating several times Jews have always been hostile to Christians and if a majority would be hostile to them. You made a point of stating anyone that does not follow your concept of what Christianity is, is not a true Christian.

That Sir makes you a hateful, spiteful, close minded person who states what you do deliberately to be devisive and paint people as for or against you.

Its precisely what generates your mind to suggest Aras is in fact myself or someone else who challenges your discriminatory comments.

Its what compels you to call gays pedophiles.

Playing the innocent persecuted victim Keng is not going to work. Your attempt to emotionally manipulate and turn your abusive comments into the innocent remarks of a victim just don't cut it.

Until you come on this forum and admit your comments are not facts but your subjective opinions and are necessarily insulting to others you have zero credibility.

Making a sweeping negative generalization that All Jews are hostile to Christians and then stating this is a fact doesn't make it a fact Keng-what it does do is demonstrate you feel you can come on this forum and utter subjective hateful remarks based on your subjective negative generalizations of an entire people to demonize them, and have the audacity to tell people its a fact.

I say it again Keng, the fact that you do not have the ability to address each and every response I directed at you speaks for itself.

What is your denomination Keng. Why don't you state what it is if you are so proud of it and it teaches you these things?

Tell us all Keng. if you are as you say a true Christian, tell the false ones which denomination you belong to and save them...isn't that what you are suggesting...until they see Jesus as you do they go to hell? Isn't that what you have stated?

As for your deliberately racist statement to me about Jews not being descended from Adam and Eve, trying to justify it after the fact doesnt' work Keng. See that is the problem with hatred. When it spews and oozes just like pus from a wound its hard to deny once its out in the open. It smells and its obvious in its fluid nature and where it drips. Pretending its not there once it drips out is too late Keng.

The fact you made this comment and so many others, shows you do not practice the "true Christianity" you demand others follow. You are a man whose words are intended to divide and pit people against one another and all it does is attract those kinds of people who wish to do the same.

I just find it sad no person who claims to believe in Christianity on this forum has not seen fit to challenge your expropriation of Christianity. As long as I do it you can hide behind the fact I am a Jew to play this game that when I criticize you its because I am anti-Christian.

I say it again, since you came on this forum with your original agenda to disparage gays and portray them as pedophiles you have continued to share your subjective opinions which I challenge because I find them negative generalizations of people and groups designed to incite intolerance and divisiveness towards these people and promulgate a myth that there is a right and wrong, and if its not Keng's view of right, its wrong.

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Oh don't mind Rue. Basically all the other 5.9999 billion people on the Globe who don't agree precisely with whatever inconstistency he's pushing at any given time are "bigots." I think he thinks Bigots and Baboons are synonymous, judging by the number of times he's managed to drag them into discussions of bigotry.

Scott why don't you debate what I have said? You claimed I challenged Keng and assumed by just certain words he said that I came to the conclusion because he feels he is a victim and persecuted he is hateful.

You now try avoid your selectivity as to what I said with what? A patronizing comment? Again Scott your patronizing me is par for the course. Its your style with anyone you disagree with. Your style is to engage in references to females and gays using words such as hysterical and fag as you have done in the past when you don't want to debate the issues at hand.

I have made it a point to carefully address each and every word I find questionable coming out of Keng's posts. He in turn has chosen to ignore not just me but anyone when they ask him to show how what he claims is a fact, is based on something. That makes him lack credibility.

How about you? What is your agenda? You tried to suggest what Keng said was misunderstood by me. You also raised ancient historic episodes to suggest Jews persecute people which was not the issue being challenged. Why?

Did you hear me at any time deny that? Did you even bother to read what I was challenging? Are you capable of reading something you disagree with and at least trying to make an effort to find out what it is you think you are disagreeing with?

Scott if at this point you are at the point of embracing the Kengs on this forum and defending what they say, I think that speaks for itself and your attempts to portray yourself as a level headed credible person who is beyond simpistic hateful remarks is wearing thin. There is only so far you can go with that mantle.

Me? I admit I have belaboured this point but I do so because I see no one else challenges Keng, particularly those posters who claim to be Christian or open minded or who resent being stereotyepd as leftists or those who claim its not right to be selective but show in their silence how selective they are and how they will only speak out if its against just one group they wish to criticize to the exclusion of all others.

Say what you want Scott and continue with the patronization but unlike you I am not selective and pick and choose only those topics that suit my personal political agenda.

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ScottUSA’s decision to try justify Keng’s comments by deflecting the subject raised and introducing the aguement that Jews persecuted Christians, again I would argue was selective and by being selective takes historic events out of context in a manner that necessarily suggests if Jews persecuted Christians, then Christians have a right to feel negative towards Jews and make the kind of sweeping generalizations Keng does about Jews always having been hostile to Christians and would be hostile against them if they were in the majority because as Keng says, at the pith and substance of the dispute between jews and Christians is the refusal of Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Those are Keng’s and Scott’s words not mine.

For those of us who do not use history as an exercise to take only certain episodes, remove them from the continum and context from which they flowed, to then support a concept that suggests one side hated the other.

Historic events of course happen based on a continuings series of developments that are all related by cause and effect. By looking at them as isolated snap shots their meaning is necessarily distorted or misunderstood. To understand an historic event one can not merely look at the actual event, they must also take the time to understand the events and conditions leading up to and culminating in that event, something ScottUSA did not do and of course to date keng has not done as he has demonstrated his claims of fact have no source other than his subjective feelings.

Christianity has references to Jews persecuting Christians starting with the alleged blood libel and Pontius Pilate being ordered by Jewish Priests to kill Jesus and then references to the persecution of Peter, John, stephen and then Paul before he converted.

The problem with trying to simplify these incidents as Jew v.s. Christian is that as is the case with any conflict, it is never black and white and the sources being relied on by ScottUSA and Keng which they assume are absolutely accurate are not if for no other reason the evidence they rely on is not first hand and in fact evidence that was written long after the fact, then edited and re-written.

To start with Pontus Pilate contrary to the story in Luek 23:13-24 and 33 and Mathew 27 is not first hand. Its fiction. A human wrote this after the fact, then it was re-written numerous times. What is interesting is that when one looks at historic documents and references to Pilate outside the New Testament what emerges is a picture of a governor who could have cared less about public opinoon, ordered the crucifixion of hundreds if not thousands of Jews and used his military to engage in mass slaughters, raping and pillaging of Jewish villages to keep them under control. Yet the New Testament version has this man being compliant to Jewish Priests something that contradicts his actions up to that point and in fact suddenly turn him from a Stalinesque dictator to a democratic and sensitive guy who wanted to appease people he otherwise thought were vermin.

Its why many historians, Christian and otherwise have argued the New Testament re-wrote what happened to appease the Romans by shifting the blame on Jews.

The point is for those who simply reply as Keng does verbatum on the Bible for the “truth” what they do is accept re-edited second hand fiction of what happened. Even todfay’s mainstream Christian historians concede the New Testament is not first-hand and may have been edited for political reasons.

The concept of Jews persecuting Christians as ScottUSA has presented also is not as simplistic as he makes it sound. After Christ’s death there was intense missionary activity on the part of Christians iand it took place at synagogues. These missionaries would tell their Jewish audiences that Jesus would return leading an army from Heaven to establish a kingdom.

What ScottUSA conveniently skips over is that this would of course caused a hostile reaction but not as he and Keng suggests in an effort to suggest Jews hate Christians but because of practical political reasons. The Jews became hostile because they felt such

Preaching would expose them all to group punishment (imprisonment, torture, slaughter) by the Romans since it suggested the Roman empire would be overthrown by Jesus.

If Jewish leaders at that time did not suppress any references to this Christian insurrection, their follwers most certainly would have been exposed to Roman backlash. So its far more complex then this simplistic Jews have always been hostile to Christians remark first

advanced by Keng and then compounded by ScottUSa.

In pre-Islamic Yemen it is true a Jewish King called Dhu Nuwas persecuted Christians in his kingdom and there was a massacre of Christians in Najran in 524 but this was not based on religion. This was a tribal war and it did not just happen for no reason. Again one must look at the entire cause and effect and events leading up to it. The point is, it was a response to an earlier massacre by Byzantine Christians against Jews.

This is precisely why I criticize people like ScottUSA because they select out of history only part of the event, the part that suits their political agenda.

I instead look at the full picture and when I analyze it would say both massacres by both sides were equally as unfortunate. I don’t choose just one and most importantly I don’t use such tribal battles as a pretext to suggest Jews hate Christians.

Another major source of claim about Jewish persecution of Christians comes from the monk Antiochus Strategos. Many Christian historians openly question the accuracy of his claims. Did Jews and Christians continually engage in battles. Of course they did. The Bible and human history is a continuous episode of such battles.

It also appears that In 115, Emperor Trajan battled the Parthians and overran Mesopotamia. Jews in Mesopotamia at that time preferred Parthian rule to Roman rule. The Parthians taking advantage of this preference dispatched Jews from Mesopotamia to Rome to encourage revolts by Jews within the Roman Empire.

In this context both In Cyprus and Cyrene, Jews massacred gentiles in great numbers. They did not just kill Christians. They killed anyone including Jews favourable to the Roman Empire. Wnen Trajan won his war against Parthia the Jews of Cyprus and Cyrene were all wiped out.

So any attempt to take this incident or others like it and try suggest its caused by Jewish hatred to Christians is nonsense. Its part of a greater political battle going on of many minority groups trying to survive in hostile societies.

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You know Rue, I'd be far more inclined to discuss things with you if you 1. used a less accusatory tone and 2. Didn't write a frikkin' novel.

Do Jews spit on Christians in Israel? Uh yeah they do. Has this been a problem for a while - yes it has. Is it rather disgusting? Yes it is. Pretty simple - you shouldn't spit on folks.

Now, did I say anywhere that ALL Israelis are running about spitting on Christians - it is also quite clear in the article that these perps are mostly Yeshiva students - which of course makes them fundies to begin with. All religions have em - I wish they would keep em too (perhaps in a dark cellar somewhere and not let them out).

Is it not possible for you, Rue, to at the very least admit that sometimes, yes sometimes Rue, Jews can do nasty things too?? After all, they are all just human like the rest of us aren't they? And as humans some individuals are simply not too nice. If this was Muslims spitting on Christians there would be rabid outrage expressed on this board - but hey - according to Rue - they deserve a pass simply because they are Jewish?

Gimme a break... ugh.

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I finallly wish to conclude by using the exact same device Keng does in reverse.

Instead of suggesting I am a true Christian being persecuted by Jews and illegitimate Christians, how about I refer to myself as a Jew, and state that Christians have always been hostile to Jews and then simply dump this list of events on you;

70 A.D. Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.

115 Rebellion of the Jews in Mesopotania, Egypt, Cyrene and Cyprus. Jews and Romans inflicted many barbaric atrocities on each other, causing the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews.

132-35 The Bar Kochba rebellion (Bar Kochba was a false Messiah). Caused the death of 500,000 Jews; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity.

135 Roman Emperor Hadrian commenced his persecution of the Jews. Jerusalem established as a pagan city. Erection of a Jupiter temple on the temple mountain (Moriah) and a temple to Venus on Golgotha. Jews were forbidden to practice circumcision, the reading of the Law, eating of unleavened bread at Passover or any Jewish festival. Infringement of this edict brought the death penalty.

315 Constantine the Great established "Christianity" as the State religion throughout the Roman Empire; issued many anti-Jewish laws.

379-95 Theodosius the Great expelled Jews from any official gate position or place of honor. Permitted the destruction of their synagogues if by so doing, it served a religious purpose.

613 Persecution of the Jews in Spain. All Jews who refused to be baptized had to leave the country. A few years later the remaining Jews were dispossessed, declared as slaves and given to pious "Christians" of position. All children 7 years or over were taken from their parents and given to receive a "Christian" education.

1096 Bloody persecutions of the Jews at the beginning of the First Crusade, in Germany. Along the cities on the Rhine River alone, 12,000 Jews were killed. The Jews were branded second only to the Moslems as the enemies of Christendom.

1121 Jews driven out of Flanders (now part of Belgium). They were not to return nor to be tolerated until they repented of the guilt of killing Jesus Christ.

1130 The Jews of London had to pay compensation of 1 million marks for allegedly killing a sick man.

1146-47 Renewed persecution of the Jews in Germany at the beginning of the Second Crusade. The French Monk, Rudolf, called for the destruction of the Jews as an introduction to the Second Crusade. It was only because of the intervention of Emperor Conrad who declared Nuerenberg and a small fortress as places of refuge for the Jews, and that of Abbot Bernard of Clairvaux, that the result was not quite as devastating as at the time of the First Crusade.

1181 French King Philip banished the Jews from his domain. They were permitted to sell all movable possessions, but the immovable such as land and houses reverted to the king. Seven years later he called the Jews back.

1189 At the coronation of Richard the Lionhearted, unexpected persecution of the Jews broke out in England. Most Jewish houses in London were burned, and many Jews killed. All possessions of the Jews were claimed by the Crown. Richard's successor alone, relieved the Jews of more than 8 million marks.

1215 At the IV Lateran Church Council, restrictions against the Jews by the church of Rome were issued.

1290 Edward I banished the Jews from England. 16,000 Jews left the country.

1298 Persecution of the Jews in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. The Nobleman Kalbfleish alleged that he had received a divine order to destroy all the Jews. 140 Jewish communities were destroyed, and more than 100,000 Jews were mercilessly killed.

1306 King Philip the Fair banished the Jews from France. 100,000 Jews left the country.

1320 In France, 40,000 shepherds dedicated themselves for the Shepherd Crusade to free Palestine from the Moslems. Under the influence of criminals and land speculators, they destroyed 120 Jewish communities.

1321 Jews were accused of having incited outlaws to poison wells and fountains in the district of Guienne, France. 5,000 Jews were burned at the stake.

1348 Jews were blamed for the plague throughout Europe, especially in Germany. In Strausberg 2,000 Jews were burned. In Maintz 6,000 were killed in most gruesome fashion, and in Erfut 3,000; and in Worms 400 Jews burned themselves in their homes.

1370 Jews were blamed for having defiled the "Host" (wafer used in the Mass) in Brabant. The accused were burned alive. Again, all Jews were banned from Flanders and until the year 1820, every 15 years a feast was kept to celebrate the event.

1391 Persecutions in Spain. In Seville and 70 other Jewish communities, the Jews were cruelly massacred and their bodies dismembered.

1394 Second banishment of Jews from France.

1453 The Franciscan monk, Capistrano, persuaded the King of Poland to withdraw all citizens' rights of the Jewish people.

1478 The Spanish inquisition directed against the Jews.

1492 The banishment of Jews from Spain. 300,000 Jews who refused to be "baptized" into the Church of Rome left Spain penniless. Many migrated to the Muslim country, Turkey, where they found tolerance and a welcome.

1497 Banishment of the Jews from Portugal. King Manuel, generally friendly to the Jews, under pressure from Spain instigated forced baptism to keep the Jews. 20,000 Jews desired to leave the country. Many were ultimately declared slaves.

1516 First Ghetto established in Venice.

1540 Banishment of Jews from Naples and 10 years later, from Genoa and Venice.

1794 Restriction of Jews in Russia, Jewish men were forced to serve 25 years in the Russian military. Many hundreds of thousands of Jews left Russia.

1846-78 All former restriction, against the Jews in the Vatican State were re-inforced by Pope Pius IX.

1903 Renewed restrictions of Jews in Russia. Frequent pogroms (massacres); general impoverishment of Russian Jewry.

1933 Commencement of persecution of Jews in Hitler Germany. Inception of the systematic destruction of 6,000,000 Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe.

Should I do what Keng does and make blanket accusations against all Christians?

Of course it would be wrong.

To try use the stupidity of any human in the past, present or future to justify stereotyping people negatively to defend hating them or considering them "sinners" etc., is what I challenge as being wrong.

Yah I can't wait for Keng to respond or for Scott to respond with another " you are an hysterical woman" comment.

Hysterical no. Persistent to the point of being a nightmare, yes.

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Buffy;

"You know Rue, I'd be far more inclined to discuss things with you if you 1. used a less accusatory tone and 2. Didn't write a frikkin' novel."

At least you responded. That I appreciate. Novels yes.

"Do Jews spit on Christians in Israel? Uh yeah they do. Has this been a problem for a while - yes it has. Is it rather disgusting? Yes it is. Pretty simple - you shouldn't spit on folks."

SOME Jews spit on Christians. Yes it is disgusting.

"Now, did I say anywhere that ALL Israelis are running about spitting on Christians - it is also quite clear in the article that these perps are mostly Yeshiva students"

With due respect no it was not clear and the way you presented it I am suggesting of course would set off people like keng attracted to it like flies to sugar.

" - which of course makes them fundies to begin with. All religions have em - I wish they would keep em too (perhaps in a dark cellar somewhere and not let them out). "

Absolutely agree with you.

"Is it not possible for you, Rue, to at the very least admit that sometimes, yes sometimes Rue, Jews can do nasty things too??"

I do it in virtually every response to you-concede Jews are not perfect. What I constantly though end up having to do is present the full story because you don't and I know you could if you wanted to. All I ask is you present it in a balanced way then as you say I will not write these bloody novels.

"After all, they are all just human like the rest of us aren't they? "

This is the point I am trying to establish with you. Interesting you and I now say the exact same thing so why do you think when I say it, its any different then when you say it? Its not.

"- but hey - according to Rue - they deserve a pass simply because they are Jewish? Gimme a break... ugh."

Buffy where have I said the Yeshiva students deserve a break? Where have I said anywhere that spitting is acceptable? Point it out.

See I am still engaged in the same debate with you, challenging you to present the exact same information but in a balanced way that does not present it as black and white. Can you do that so I don't have to then read the Kengs of the world jumping on the bandwagon and taking this as a cue to promote their agendas? Its all I ask. I ask you because you know better and the Kengs of the world do not.

You know what I would really wish would happen. You took your annoyance with me just once and look why it comes out.

You see it as overreacting right? You probably don't even want to acknowledge the Kengs of the world right? Why not? When I see you criticize the Kengs of the world as consistently as you do such situations, I will take you more seriously.

Tell me Buffy what could you not resist-the idea that fundamentalist Jews in Israel act like jack-asses or that it might fit into your concept that Israel has people living their who claim to be Jewish who are nasty?

Do you think you raised it because you felt it proves your point Israel is infallible and should be criticized?

If that was your agenda instead of relying on such obvious examples of fundamentalist intolerance which are not specific to any one religion, why not debate the policies you think are questionable and avoid these crude bursts of idiocy all humans engage in? They don't help establish your case.

Do I sound accusatory, no just annoyed because I always hope when someone starts a thread and they see it inciting others to be hateful they at least address the hateful person and say, sorry that was not my intention please do not change the subject. It would coming from you have sounded more credible since you started the thread.

Are you responsible for others, no but I would hope if you claim to be advocating on behalf of those you think are being hated, you do that consistently and not pick and choose who you think the victims are but challenge hatred wherever you see it.

Being selective takes its toll on credibility.

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Rue, just want you to know that I am not in the same camp as the kengs of the world - to me he is in the same groups as radical Zionists, Neo Nazis and Radical Mullahs.

People are people, and MOST just want the freedom to live and love.

Sadly - wrt Israel she is currently occupying another's land - and with that comes tension. Tension from those who are occupied and simply are exercising their inherent right to fight the occupiers. This of course leads to more tension as some Israelis don't want to admit that what their government is engaging in is simply wrong from any humanitarian standpoint. NOTE Rue: I say SOME - not all. As B'TSelem, ICAHD, and the countless other Israeli organisations who fight tirelessly and bravely for the rights of the Palestinians proves.

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Scott why don't you debate what I have said? You claimed I challenged Keng and assumed by just certain words he said that I came to the conclusion because he feels he is a victim and persecuted he is hateful.
Honestly?

As to this specific subject, I haven't really read Keng's posts in any detail, but those I have read contain no overt anti-semitism. I have read the first few paragraphs of some of yours, at least until you get bogged down in baboon allegory or I start gagging, whichever comes first, and I find your posts long-winded, turgid, pompous, and usually 90% clumsy sarcasm. I think your logic changes depending on what the subject is, often with downright silly results; I think your every thought goes through a lens of victimization; and I find your bigotry toward baboons alarming. Half the time I find your writing incomprehensible to boot. Take, for example, the following:

ScottUSA’s decision to try justify Keng’s comments by deflecting the subject raised and introducing the aguement that Jews persecuted Christians, again I would argue was selective and by being selective takes historic events out of context in a manner that necessarily suggests if Jews persecuted Christians, then Christians have a right to feel negative towards Jews and make the kind of sweeping generalizations Keng does about Jews always having been hostile to Christians and would be hostile against them if they were in the majority because as Keng says, at the pith and substance of the dispute between jews and Christians is the refusal of Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

You can extrapolate anything you want from this, but it seems to me to be historical fact that Jews have been historically hostile to Christians. It seems to me that it's an historical fact that Jews don't recognize Christ as the Messiah. These are hardly leaps of logic or faith. Now, I have no idea whether Keng took this as some kind of justification for disliking Jews, but I know enough about your tendency toward hysterical hyperbole to know that chances are that conclusion is more likely to be a fabrication of your mind that what Keng actually said.

What I've found from spending time on these boards is that people like you, Rue, are Judaism's worst enemies; constantly crying out that you're being abused everywhere and always, trotting out not so vieled references to historical oppression at the drop of a hat, bombastically attempting to bully everyone around you into embarrassed submission, and generally creating resentment that often simmers and evolves into real anti-semitism. As esra levant once said: if one is riding on the back of a tiger and constantly complaining about the danger of being bitten, sooner of later the tiger is going to turn around and bite.

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It is also a historical fact they have been pretty much powerless to do anything with the hostility.
That's not relevant here, is it? The degree of hostility is not impacted by the wherewithall to act on it.

I don't even know why I allowed myself to get dragged into this conversation, quite frankly...I just get sick of watching Rue produce volumes of ill-written bombast and coming across like a cross between a flummoxed Goat and and a snarling and snapping Waz.

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That's not relevant here, is it? The degree of hostility is not impacted by the wherewithall to act on it.

It's relevant if it is in connection with Kengs ill thought posts, namely that considerably number of Xtians were put to death by Jews.

I mean, it's one thing not to like the mayor or the burgermeister meister, quite another thing to hack him with an axe and use his blood to make matza

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It's relevant if it is in connection with Kengs ill thought posts, namely that considerably number of Xtians were put to death by Jews.

I mean, it's one thing not to like the mayor or the burgermeister meister, quite another thing to hack him with an axe and use his blood to make matza

Kengs has already said it was just a flippant remark...Christ, I don't blame him for reacting that way to Rue's loud bombastic bellows. All Rue needs to do is start making his words rhyme like Nasty Nazi Nutters, and we'll have our very own forum mascot.

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Kengs has already said it was just a flippant remark...Christ, I don't blame him for reacting that way to Rue's loud bombastic bellows. All Rue needs to do is start making his words rhyme like Nasty Nazi Nutters, and we'll have our very own forum mascot.

I thought his remark has to do with Adam And Steve....?

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You know Rue, I'd be far more inclined to discuss things with you if you 1. used a less accusatory tone and 2. Didn't write a frikkin' novel.

Do Jews spit on Christians in Israel? Uh yeah they do. Has this been a problem for a while - yes it has. Is it rather disgusting? Yes it is. Pretty simple - you shouldn't spit on folks.

Now, did I say anywhere that ALL Israelis are running about spitting on Christians - it is also quite clear in the article that these perps are mostly Yeshiva students - which of course makes them fundies to begin with. All religions have em - I wish they would keep em too (perhaps in a dark cellar somewhere and not let them out).

Is it not possible for you, Rue, to at the very least admit that sometimes, yes sometimes Rue, Jews can do nasty things too?? After all, they are all just human like the rest of us aren't they? And as humans some individuals are simply not too nice. If this was Muslims spitting on Christians there would be rabid outrage expressed on this board - but hey - according to Rue - they deserve a pass simply because they are Jewish?

Gimme a break... ugh.

Good post Buffy.

I've read news articles where Jewish men have attacked women if they sit at the front of the bus, apparently this is offensive to a certain group of Fundie Jews. I can't remember the name, I think it's Hassack. It's pityful that women can serve their country but must sit at the back of the bus lest they pollute a man's environment. Only a coward defends their personal religious beliefs by attacking women, there is currently two complaints before Israel's courts. Here's hoping progression and equality defeats the fundy zealots who shove my sex to the back of the bus.

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70 A.D. Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.

115 Rebellion of the Jews in Mesopotania, Egypt, Cyrene and Cyprus. Jews and Romans inflicted many barbaric atrocities on each other, causing the death of several hundreds of thousands of Romans and Jews.

132-35 The Bar Kochba rebellion (Bar Kochba was a false Messiah). Caused the death of 500,000 Jews; thousands were sold into slavery or taken into captivity.

135 Roman Emperor Hadrian commenced his persecution of the Jews. Jerusalem established as a pagan city. Erection of a Jupiter temple on the temple mountain (Moriah) and a temple to Venus on Golgotha. Jews were forbidden to practice circumcision, the reading of the Law, eating of unleavened bread at Passover or any Jewish festival. Infringement of this edict brought the death penalty.

Well, let's see... the persecution of the Christians began prior to 70AD, and among the persecuters was a man named Saul who as you may know became the Apostle Paul, who in turn was persecuted as well and eventually put to death.

Some verses from the NT that may be of interest:

Acts 6:12--So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin.

Acts 7:59--While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Acts 11:19--Now those who had been scattered by the persecution in connection with Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch

Acts 13:50--But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region.

Acts 14:19--Then some Jews came from Antioch and Iconium and won the crowd over. They stoned Paul and dragged him outside the city, thinking he was dead.

Acts 17:5--But the Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

Acts 17:13--When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.

Acts 22:4--[Paul says:] I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison...

Acts 23:12--The next morning the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.

and so on and so forth...

Let's not forget that there Christians were very much caught up in the events of 70AD and afterwards and it's no doubt that many are to be included in the inflated figures you provide as they were really regarded to be a sect of Jews rather than a seperate religion; that didn't come until the second century, when Roman writers started paying them more attention.

Face it, wherever the Christians went, they were subject to persecution; initially by the Jews, later by the Romans when Christianity began to spread among the Gentiles.

1933 Commencement of persecution of Jews in Hitler Germany. Inception of the systematic destruction of 6,000,000 Jews throughout Nazi-occupied Europe.

You may want to bone up on the ideological basis for the Nazi regime, because while the Nazis may have sugar coated things a bit with pseudo-Christian rhetoric--as was usually the case in Europe when a worldly ruler wanted to undertake something or other--it was by an large secular humanist, paganist and at times totally fabricated. Nice try, though.

Edited by kengs333
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