How best to defend our values against Suicide Bombers?

[August1991]

It seems to me that in Afghanistan and Iraq, we face people who fight us on terms that are new.

Who else has taken control of large airplanes and flown them into large buildings? We now face suicide bombers - suicide bombers who seek to kill themselves and as many other people as they can.

Who are these "newer" fighters/soldiers? What do we do to defend ourselves against them?

----

In Vietnam, flaccid Americans faced tough opponents and America lost. Such is the Hollywood version of modern war. Athens was a democracy but Sparta was a military city. Such is the modern European view of ancient history.

In Europe, prior to Napoleon, wars were fought by hired soldiers. Napoleon defended the revolution and changed Europe with an army of voluntary soldiers. The Japanese created kamikaze soldiers. Stalin ultimately defeated Hitler by using a voluntary army - as Churchill had exhorted.

There is a confusion in the West about how best to defeat evil. Sometimes, we seek to defeat it by searching "root causes". Sometimes, we decide to defeat it by superior strength, "shock and awe".

Since Japan and Lebanon, we are facing a new version of organized stupidity. We in the West face organized people who use our technology to fight us. 200 years ago, Napoleon inspired soldiers to fight voluntarily. Fifty years ago, American soldiers faced Kamikaze soldiers. We now face Islamic suicide bombers.

We face organized psychopathy. What do we do?

If Karla Homulka/Paul Bernardo got control of a government with a strong army, what would we in the rest of the world do? Such is the world - I fear - of our great-grandchildren in the year 2150.

We live in a world where any fool can destroy the reputation of a public figure. What of a world where any fool can kill a public figure? How do we defend ourselves against such a world and ensure liberal values survive?

Edited December 29, 2007 by August1991

[ScottSA]

There is only one way, but that won't happen until we've suffered enough casualties to ask for it to happen. Until then the great majority of us will continue fighting abstract wars on anonymous bulletin boards while a few brave young men do the actual fighting. It will eventually happen though, because unlike the Vietnamese, these barbarians are in our midst, and they can hurt us badly at home.

[August1991]

It will eventually happen though, because unlike the Vietnamese, these barbarians are in our midst, and they can hurt us badly at home.

Barbarians?

The Dalai Lama is a celebrity. If women wear a saree, there's no objection. A turban? Not really.

Whether Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Christian - there's no problem. It is Muslims that apparently pose a problem.

I think the real question is: how can we blame Muslims for this?

It was 19 Muslims who destroyed the World Trade Center, two large buildings in Manhattan, killing several thousand innocent people. The 19 were not Buddhists, Protestants, Africans or Norwegians.

They were Muslims.

This simple fact has had a tremendous impact on world history. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

Edited November 2, 2007 by August1991

[Riverwind]

It was 19 Muslims who destroyed the World Trade Center, two large buildings in Manhattan, killing several thousand innocent people. The 19 were not Buddhists, Protestants, Africans or Norwegians.

Muslims are the 'devil du jour' - just like the Germans and Japanese were 60 years ago or the Russians a mere 20 years ago. In 50 years another 'devil' will take their place.

Humans have a problem because human societies are built on a sense of belonging. Societies cannot function unless the people in the society develop a connections with individuals that they have never met. Creating or exaggerating an external threat perhaps the oldest and (sadly) most effective way to create this social bond. Most leaders use fear of outsiders as a way to coherse a society into adopting their point of view. This so called "War with Muslims' started because many despots in the Islamic world convinced their people that 'America' was to to blame for all of their problems. This created the social climate that has bred suicide bombers. Unfortunately, when 9/11 happened the US was saddled with and extremely unimaginative and weak leader who decided that exaggerating the threat from Muslim extremists suited his purposes. He fabricated a threat from Iraq and after screwing that up he now works to grossy exagerate a threat from Iran.

Unfortunately, the warmongers in the white house have simply re-enforced the anti-American myths in the Muslim world and made the problem worse.

If we think our values are worth preserving then we have to actually live up to them. That means that military force should only be used if there is truely no other alternative.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Riverwind

[jazzer]

.

They were Muslims.

This simple fact has had a tremendous impact on world history. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

Aah, don't forget the majority of them were Saudi, something that should really be in the forefront.

[Higgly]

The brown horde! It's coming!

By the way. What values are we talking about here?

Edited November 2, 2007 by Higgly

[kuzadd]

The brown horde! It's coming!

By the way. What values are we talking about here?

why higgly we are speaking of the imaginary values we think/pretend we have.

The ones we tell ourselves we have so we can feel happy and smug.

The reality?

quite different.

[scribblet]

The brown horde! It's coming!

By the way. What values are we talking about here?

Well, equality for one... Canada's founding culture and ethics are primarily based on Judea/Christian principles, British/French rule of law and a parliamentary democracy - really - that's usually why so many people want to come here.

We accept multiculturalism as a fact of life now, but not all cultures are of equal benefit to canada. For instance, would you want to see a caste system here, or Syria's legal system, or would you prefer that gays be executed?

[kuzadd]

Canada's founding culture and ethics are primarily based on Judea/Christian principles

What Canada is that?

Not the one I am living in?

This must be the new revisionist history?

Judeo?christian?

OK?

Edited November 2, 2007 by kuzadd

[Guest trex]

We accept multiculturalism as a fact of life now, but not all cultures are of equal benefit to canada. For instance, would you want to see a caste system here, or Syria's legal system, or would you prefer that gays be executed?

Thats not how Canada really works, you are exageratting the concept of multi-culturalism to the point if the absurd. If that was how it worked Canada would have failed long ago. Each distinct cultural group has the right to practice their faith and beliefs so long as it is under Canadian law. They can't make up their own micro-society with their own laws while on this soil. So if it is a mosaic of distinct elements they still need to fit in to the overall picture

[scribblet]

Thats not how Canada really works, you are exageratting the concept of multi-culturalism to the point if the absurd. If that was how it worked Canada would have failed long ago. Each distinct cultural group has the right to practice their faith and beliefs so long as it is under Canadian law. They can't make up their own micro-society with their own laws while on this soil. So if it is a mosaic of distinct elements they still need to fit in to the overall picture

It is not far fetched, and IMO it is also a safe bet that an increasing number of Canadians are becoming opposed to "official multiculturalism". which is a big difference . It kinda seems like officially they want to kick our founding identity and culture under the rug. Even Trudeau recognized our history amd Judeo-Christian values. as he left the word God from in the Constitution.

Canada's laws whether you like it or not are based on Judeo-Christian principles with an attempt to blend French and British cultures. We acknowledge and respect diversity but also need to ensure that our common Canadian values are upheld.

[Black Dog]

August, m'boy, if you're gonna use a quote of mine from a different thread, at least supply the context in which it originally appeared. Thanks.

It was 19 Muslims who destroyed the World Trade Center, two large buildings in Manhattan, killing several thousand innocent people. The 19 were not Buddhists, Protestants, Africans or Norwegians.

They were Muslims.

This simple fact has had a tremendous impact on world history. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise.

True as far as it goes, but if you want to get really specific, they were bin-Ladenists (to borrow a turn of phrase from Ol' Hitch). The devil is in the details.

[Moxie]

why higgly we are speaking of the imaginary values we think/pretend we have.

The ones we tell ourselves we have so we can feel happy and smug.

The reality?

quite different.

Just once I'd like to see you articulate yourself beyond one liners of tripe. What is your point, what is your opinion. Define our imaginary "Values, are you capable of typing more than twenty words? You add nothing to this discussion but insults and vague mewling.

Regarding Brown people Higgly, your bigotry and racist tendancies are very apparent.

That's an interesting question August, from my perspective this country will evolve and grow as she has in the past. At one time the RC and the Prodestants hated each other, today it's a non-issue. Over time we acclamate to the world around us. Religion defined our culture visa vie laws and morals, religion is a vital part of our history but will it have any place in our future? One does not need religion to be a decent, moral and honourable human being. Our current value system is tought to us by our parents, religion may place a role but shrinking church members would suggest it doesn't anymore.

I see the biggest threat to Canadian Values to be two forces, the Idle Loony Left and Mass Muslim Immigration. Both share similar if not identical idiology of no speration of state and it's people. Both use facism and violence to achieve their goals. The fringe left regularly try and enforce their PCness on others, their main goal is total and complete tolerance and implimenation o of their views (twist beyond imagination). They are weak and pathetic now but they are growing in numbers, if the fringe parties ever unite (I now include the Liberal Party as a fringe Party) this country will be screwed. Their love of social experiments will cull our culture and destroy this country.

Every country that has taken in mass amounts of Muslim Immigrants are struggling with their demands of no seperation of Church and State. They use their laws to muddy the waters and to achive their goals. England is a country that we should use as an example of what can happen here. The socialist loonly left is determined to eradicate any culture that is native to England to replace it with minority group's culture. Bluntly put, the socialist left want to turn England into a socialist Islamic State. If we do not deal with these two radical groups we will, over time, lose our culture and have it replaced with two Idiologies that hate/loathe democracy.

Here are a few examples of what life is like under socialists who are determined to cull the Native English Culture.

An attack on Christian Culture and it's traditions by the socialist left.

Link: http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/23822/...-harmful-to-us-

This one deals with the government Idiots forcing Non-Muslims to wear Muslim clothing and then seperating and segregating the females from the males in the name of "Diversity". Me, I'd of quit and sued the fool who thought up this stupid idea. I guess one's right to be equal in the eyes of the law is only applicable if you are a male in England.

Link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/arti...in_page_id=1770

This link is the enemy evolving and adapting, if we don't wake up it'll be to late. Only an Islamist could think up cyber virgins.

Link: http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblo...eda-announ.html

[Higgly]

why higgly we are speaking of the imaginary values we think/pretend we have.

The ones we tell ourselves we have so we can feel happy and smug.

The reality?

quite different.

The reality is that we brag about our multiculturalism. What have you got?

[ScottSA]

What annoying little gnats the left can be at times. It takes a real low-brow to sit on the sidelines and snidely mock one's own culture when it faces danger.

[Higgly]

Well, equality for one... Canada's founding culture and ethics are primarily based on Judea/Christian principles...

Yeah right. Wolfe and Montcalm were really duking it out over our Judeo-Christian principles.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Just once I'd like to see you articulate yourself beyond one liners of tripe. What is your point, what is your opinion. Define our imaginary "Values, are you capable of typing more than twenty words? You add nothing to this discussion but insults and vague mewling.

Regarding Brown people Higgly, your bigotry and racist tendancies are very apparent.

I took your font mark-up out because it rendered your comments illegible. Once I did that. I realized that they were also unpalatible.

You want to know what my values are? Well here it is. My values are that we need people who take great risks to come here because they believe that this is a great place to live. People who want to bring their families here and raise their kids here. People who come here because they see our political system and our economy and they say, "Yeah. That's the way it should be. That's what is right for my kids. That is a culture that will give me meaning as a human being. That is a culture that will recognize me as a striving, earnest human being. That is a culture that will let me earn a honest living for myself and for my family. That is a culture that will not judge me the moment I show my face, but will give me a chance to prove myself."

What we don't need are people who judge on superficial characteristics.

Thanks for asking.

Edited November 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

What annoying little gnats the left can be at times.

Buzz buzz, baby. Buzz buzz.

[guyser]

What annoying little gnats the left can be at times. It takes a real low-brow to sit on the sidelines and snidely mock one's own culture when it faces danger.

I happen to agree. Well not the left part, but the rest sure.

But can you call me when our own culture is in danger? You will be jetting around a la The Jetsons long before we are in danger.

And when you sell your house , thank the almighty Canada Immigration for your ability to cash that nice fat cheque.

[Peter F]

First off, August1991, service in Napoleon's army was rarely volountary. It was a mass conscript army. Same with the Red Army of WWII, unless choosing the army over the coal pits of Novosibirsk is volounteering. It also was a mass conscript army - just like every other major powers' army was.

But that is neither here nor there with regards to your post. What do we do to stop crazy islamists from causing random mayhem and destruction?

The answer is nothing. We do nothing out of the ordinary to stop this.

Assassination of a political figure is unusual but not new. Julius Ceaser was assissinated by his political opponents. There is nothing new about assassinations.

Flying aircraft into tall buildings is new, but whats so outlandish about it as compared to, say, trying to blow up the same tall buildings by setting explosives in the parking garage?

So how do these murderous attacks succeed? What is different about them as compared to any other murderous attack? How could these attacks have possibly been stopped?

They could have been stopped with vigilant security measures at airports, or with a functioning police service in the case of suicide bombers.The most important thing is a population that doesn't think terrorists are freedom fighters .Thus very few terrorist Attacks in North America have been few and far between, a bit more in Europe, and a lot more in the Middle East...and up to the Twin Towers, that was even with a lax security service that risk-managed things.

There is no reason to change anything. At least here in North America. Public Support is the crucial issue. No support for terrorists/freedom fighters and they will be ratted out.

Otherwise they won't. Thus the problem of terrorism in the middle east...mostly Israel and Iraq; a sizeable portion of the population, rightly or wrongly, doe's not support their present governments and fewer informants as a result.

So how do we protect our liberal nation from being overthrown by terrorists?

Answer: by being a liberal nation. Treating everyone (even immigrants) fair and square in a non-arbitrary fashion within the rule of law...basically doing what we do now.

Have we anything to fear from terrorists and other extremists? No.

Would anyone feel safer if the police had the power to arrest everyone in town? Under a military government? The greatest danger to our liberal values and government is if our government should over react and arrest everyone who looks funny or sweats too much at public gatherings...or resort to torture in order to extract the story we want to hear ala the inquisistion. Or things of that nature.

As long as we steer clear of that sort of jack-booted horsepoo, we'll be just fine, albeit some of us could very well end up dead. Terrorsists can blow me up anytime they like - or saw off my noggin if they should so desire. Because in the long run they will inevitably lose, as long as the government of the day keeps its own head...

[margrace]

Well, equality for one... Canada's founding culture and ethics are primarily based on Judea/Christian principles, British/French rule of law and a parliamentary democracy - really - that's usually why so many people want to come here.

We accept multiculturalism as a fact of life now, but not all cultures are of equal benefit to canada. For instance, would you want to see a caste system here, or Syria's legal system, or would you prefer that gays be executed?

I wonder how our native people would answer that one.

[scribblet]

I wonder how our native people would answer that one.

They didn't 'found' what we have now, but they are welcome to become part of it and be equal citizens along with all of us.

As an aside, did anyone watch TVO last night with Steve Paiken? The subject was something about 'dissecting multiculturalism', the ads showed a clip about the Muslim village. It was too late for me to watch but am interested in hearing any comments on it.

[Amazing Atheist]

For those saying Canada is primarily a Judea/Christian nation I say no as most Canadians do not attend church or take part in religion at all. Canada prides itself like other multi cultural democracies on the separation of church an state.

If our government started to impose religious dogma on the people I would leave Canada as I am an atheist and accept no religion.

In response to the OP, these types of enemies are not new. Extremist Muslims blowing things up is not a new occurrence 9/11 just made people aware of how serious these people are.

I personally feel in regards to many of the regimes especially Iran and Syria that many of our disputes with them could be solved without causing death. Iran for example says it want full diplomacy with the US to work out differences and so on yet the US refuses and declares it's military a 'terrorist' organization.

I believe the main problem with the Middle East and it's relations to the West is a lack of cultural understanding and horrible foreign policies regarding the region. As for groups like Al Qaeda I believe strongly that this type of violent group is rooted within the Islamic faith. The Quran is full of violence for example Mohamed (spelling?) was a warrior, the whole damn book praises the wars this man fought in the name of the almighty space daddy 'Allah'. the book mentions other warriors as well but he's the main guy.

Christians are really no better and both sides of the argument in regards to religious beliefs view what is going on today as a war of civilizations. In reality both religions have a lot in common in regards to violent histories I just feel that the people in the ME embrace their violent histories more then other religions.

[scribblet]

For those saying Canada is primarily a Judea/Christian nation I say no as most Canadians do not attend church or take part in religion at all. Canada prides itself like other multi cultural democracies on the separation of church an state.

If our government started to impose religious dogma on the people I would leave Canada as I am an atheist and accept no religion.

In response to the OP, these types of enemies are not new. Extremist Muslims blowing things up is not a new occurrence 9/11 just made people aware of how serious these people are.

Canada was founded on the judeo Christian principles, but has become more diverse, however Christians still remain the largest religious group in Canada, by a large margin, although on the decline. (2001 Census)

The concept of separation of Church and State is actually American, although I think it meant keeping the State out of the church - and no such provision exists in the Canadian Constitution.

No gov`t is or has proposed imposing religious dogma on the public, nothing has changed, or is going to.

[capricorn]

As an aside, did anyone watch TVO last night with Steve Paiken? The subject was something about 'dissecting multiculturalism', the ads showed a clip about the Muslim village. It was too late for me to watch but am interested in hearing any comments on it.

Here is a link to The Agenda's site. I think it's the episode you refer to. They re-broadcast these shows so maybe you could tape it if you want. It also has a link for podcasts which I know little about or if these cost anything to view on the internet. Anyhoo, you may be interested Scriblett.

http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/i...05%2005:00:00.0