Electric car maker charges Ottawa blocking its sale in Canada

[Fortunata]

The founder of a Canadian-made, 100 per cent electric car says the federal government is blocking him from selling his cars in Canada.

The ZENN (zero emissions, no noise) electric car is already being sold in the United States, Mexico, and Europe, where it has won awards.

The two-seater is built in St. Jerome, Que., by Toronto-based ZENN Motor Company. It is roughly the same size as the Mini-Cooper, and would sell for approximately $14,000.

Company founder Ian Clifford says Canadians haven't heard much about the car because Ottawa won't let him sell it here.

..

"Last week the prime minister said we can't meet our Kyoto protocols and every electric vehicle that's on the road, you offset six tonnes of CO2 emissions, per vehicle," said Clifford.

With the dollar on the rise and no Canadian market, Clifford says he's not sure how long his company can hold on.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...iccar-zenn.html

The National showed this story last night. As well they made reference to Dynasty, a BC company who has given up and is moving shop offshore because they can't sell here in Canada, even though they meet requirements and sell to other countries.

This seems to be a good opportunity for the government to put their money where their mouths are and, even if they don't promote electric cars to cut down on pollution, at least let them on the market so consumers can have a choice. Yet they are stalling. Why? It won't harm the oil companies as it is doubtful that these cars will replace gasoline vehicles. So what is the benefit, or more to the point, who benefits?

[mikedavid00]

This seems to be a good opportunity for the government to put their money where their mouths are and, even if they don't promote electric cars to cut down on pollution, at least let them on the market so consumers can have a choice. Yet they are stalling. Why? It won't harm the oil companies as it is doubtful that these cars will replace gasoline vehicles. So what is the benefit, or more to the point, who benefits?

I don't feel that cars which will hold up traffic should be on our roads.

Canada has a crammed in, over stuffed infrastructure unlike MANY cities and suburbs in the US.

If we had a comfortable flow of roads and traffic then maybe they can be allowed on non-highways, but we're just too packed to have costly slowdowns. Every city in Canada is.

This isn't Colorado.

[geoffrey]

Sorry mike, I don't follow? Are these cars considerably slower? Worse than merging behind a Yaris?

[mikedavid00]

Sorry mike, I don't follow? Are these cars considerably slower? Worse than merging behind a Yaris?

hehe..

Yes that's the reason why they are banned. They are considered 'low speed' vehicles.

It might be nice in a US suburb with good infrastructure, but not for our roads/traffic here in Canada.

Slower traffic costs our economy.

[daniel]

...

This seems to be a good opportunity for the government to put their money where their mouths are and, even if they don't promote electric cars to cut down on pollution, at least let them on the market so consumers can have a choice. ...

While business analysts (as well as members on this discussion forum) critique Canada for not being entreprenurial enough, out comes something proudly Canadian and globally competitive yet unsupported by our own government.

Our streets need more alternate vehicles such as hybrids, motor scooters, bicyles, public transit and these electric cars. They should vastly improve not only the environment, our expenditures as well as local traffic congestion.

It's disturbing how the same people who traditionally fly the banner for choice and market competition continuously act the contrary.

Edited October 26, 2007 by daniel

[GostHacked]

hehe..

Yes that's the reason why they are banned. They are considered 'low speed' vehicles.

It might be nice in a US suburb with good infrastructure, but not for our roads/traffic here in Canada.

Slower traffic costs our economy.

So if the road is gridlocked, with all these gasoline cars, how does my new electric vehicle slow all your poor poor petrol-guzzlin-car people down?

General Motors EV1 was a great fast electric car. This was about 10 years ago.

Documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ev1

The EV1 could accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in the eight-second range and from 0–50 mph (0–80 km/h) in 6.3 seconds.[19] The car's top speed was electronically limited to 80 mph (129 km/h). At the time the EV1 (with lead acid batteries) was the only electric car produced which met all EV America performance goals of the United States Department of Energy.[20]

Toyota yaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Vitz

[edit] T-Sport

The Toyota Yaris T-Sport was launched in 2007. It was first seen at the Geneva Motor Show and is powered by the new 130 bhp (97 kW) 1.8 L dual VVT-i petrol engine, which can reach 100 km/h in under 10 seconds.

And that is the SPORT model of the Yaris.

Slow?? Uh huh.

If people learned how to drive, gas or electric cars, the roads would flow as fast as they could. But the human factor plays more part in traffic than the vehicle itself.

[Topaz]

When Cannon was asked this question today, he said that they hadn't pass Canadian inspection but he didn't say what was wrong with them and why they didn't pass. If they are in the US, then what's the difference between countries. Is Harper afraid he wouldn't get the support from the oil and gas companies if he let in an electric car??

[godzilla]

unfortunately, so predictable… in any ‘pay to play’ political environment. ‘status quo’ will always push for ‘status quo’. no competition please…

the whole internal combustion automobile thing is a complete dinosaur and a farce designed to squeeze as much money out of the system as possible… we have no idea how much capital oil companies have invested in auto manufacturers or vise versa but I expect its big or its simply that they profit wildly by scratching each others backs.

it’s a basic fact that its going to be tough to sell electric automobiles for $60,000 when consumers look under the hood to find something as uncomplicated as an electric motor!

why government is not showing some leadership and mandating things like auto engine shut off while not moving is grave.

lets face it, the current system is based on increasing profits by selling consumers larger and more expensive vehicles! these vehicles inherently increase the safety requirements of all vehicles and thus ensure that small light weight transportation will never see our roadways!

throughout history one is able to find examples of societies who, bogged down in an infrastructure resistant to change, have suffered economic catastrophe due to their inability to change… how about an entire society so heavily dependent on a diminishing resource like oil!?

personally, i’m itching for a toyota prius. everyone should try one of these! that car is progress!

[ScottSA]

I love the kneejerk treehuggery in this thread. Did anyone read the actual reason the thing isn't licenced/ To wit:

"The car is considered a low-speed urban vehicle with a regulated maximum speed of 40 km/h. It's designed for areas where speed limits are 50 km/h or less, such as city core or neighbourhood-type driving, said Clifford."

So outside of school zones, the minimum speed limit is 50 kms, and this thing won't go that fast safely. It's one thing to have slow motorized bikes travelling on the side of the road or on bike paths, and quite another to have the entire lane blocked by a vehicle that can't go the speed limit. Further, unless they can find a city unlike any city I've ever seen, anywhere in the world, there are fast flow roads throughout the city that this thing couldn't go on, yet have to go on in order to go from one end of the city to the next. I can't think of a worst menace on the road than to clog them up with vehicles going at different speeds. Good grief, the death toll in new delhi was horrendous, what with scooters, cars, bullock carts, bicycles and camels all using the same roadway...the last thing we need here is that.

[Wilber]

Like most alternate fuel vehicles the problem isn't the power plant, it's the fuel, or the batteries in the case of electrics. Problem is we haven't yet found way to store energy that comes close to what is found in a tank of gasoline or diesel unless it's a nuke.

I would be interested in knowing what standards these vehicles don't meet for road use in Canada. According to the company's website it only has a range up to 35 miles and is speed limited to 25 MPH. Allowing it to go faster would decrease its range accordingly. It is classified as a low speed vehicle FMVSS 500 (a US spec by the way) which is the same as used for golf carts, probably because it can't meet performance and safety standards for real cars. A city car at best.

Perhaps there is more here than meets the eye.

[Fortunata]

If you had watched the clip last night it did speak to the low-speed issue. It is just one of many different excuses TC has used and a bogus one at that since scooters are allowed and are classed in the low-speed category. The representative from Zenn says that once he jumps through one hoop he is presented with another. A different answer every time he approaches TC. The low-speed issue is just the newest excuse. If a scooter, why not a Zenn for urbanites?

Somehow there is more to it than what we know.

[guyser]

I wonder if he could challenge the govt department since the Mennonites are allowed to drive on certain roads in this province. Horse and buggy do not go even as fast as this car.

The restriction for not using the highway could be enforced , the same as pedestrian and cyclist traffic.

The low speed would work ok for this city on most days since our traffic does not go anywhere very fast. Lots of places here have 40K per hour, and not in school zones. He could actually get a speeding ticket in my neighbourhood , limit 30KPH.

Would make for a Simpsonesque police chase . (fighter pilot chasing down Sideshow Bob in his bi-plane)

[Wilber]

40k would be unacceptable almost everywhere. In almost all urban areas the speed limit is 50K unless posted otherwise. Most people do closer to 60 so this thing is going to be 2O kph slower than most of the surrounding traffic unless it's in a traffic jam. Not safe IMO. This is not a scooter or a moped, it's a covered golf cart and will be as big an obstruction as any other slow moving vehicle. You aren't allowed to drive golf carts on public roads either. I can't see a huge market for a vehicle that costs 14 grand and can only go 4O kph for a maximum of 55 KM before it needs several hours to refuel. It's a great concept but the range and performance will have to be a lot better before I'd think about putting out my own money for one. Might be a good PC thing for some government to blow tax dollars on to show that they are green.

If it's so great why aren't they selling like hot cakes in all those other countries and if the are, why is this company losing money?

[guyser]

. This is not a scooter or a moped, it's a covered golf cart and will be as big an obstruction as any other slow moving vehicle. You aren't allowed to drive golf carts on public roads either.

But scooters and mopeds are allowed , as are horse and buggy. I think the point is we have slow things on the road now , without too much of a problem.

A golf cart fails for many safety reasons, no seatbelts, no bumpers strong enough , and frankly no heat, of course that is only my reasoning on the last one.

I can't see a huge market for a vehicle that costs 14 grand and can only go 4O kph for a maximum of 55 KM before it needs several hours to refuel. It's a great concept but the range and performance will have to be a lot better before I'd think about putting out my own money for one. Might be a good PC thing for some government to blow tax dollars on to show that they are green.

Do you think that should be reason enough to deny the market?

Lots of things start slow, damn should have seen the prototype for Sea-Doo , and it and I go back to the early 70's. The things broke down all the time, noisy , poor steering. But now? Sell like hotcakes.

If it's so great why aren't they selling like hot cakes in all those other countries and if the are, why is this company losing money?

Things take time grasshopper, takes time.

One of which is the avg northamerican mindset. You ever talk with some americans in the rural areas about the Smart car ? I imagine the same mindset occurs here too, not that I have heard though (there ya go bc-just for you)

[Wilber]

But scooters and mopeds are allowed , as are horse and buggy. I think the point is we have slow things on the road now , without too much of a problem.

A golf cart fails for many safety reasons, no seatbelts, no bumpers strong enough , and frankly no heat, of course that is only my reasoning on the last one.

The only horse and buggys allowed in city centers are those owned by tour companies. Try using one yourself and see what happens. Think about several thousand of them. I don't even want to think about the smell and I love horses.

This thing also fails for safety reasons. It is not built in compliance to motor vehicle safety specs it is built to FMVS 500 which is the same as for golf carts and that it is why it is limited to 40 KPH.

Do you think that should be reason enough to deny the market?

No but it's a hell of a reason for the market to deny it.

Lots of things start slow, damn should have seen the prototype for Sea-Doo , and it and I go back to the early 70's. The things broke down all the time, noisy , poor steering. But now? Sell like hotcakes.

Reliability is not the issue. Sea-Doo's aren't used on public roads. Why shouldn't we be allowed to drive ATV's on public roads if that is your argument? Because they are powered by internal combustion engines?

Things take time grasshopper, takes time.

Yes, and someone else's money, right?

Smart cars are a great but over priced. They are also capable of highway speeds, comply with federal safety regulations and you don't have to park them for several hours every 50KM to refuel. In other words, except for the price they make sense.

[old_bold&cold]

I am fully willing to give as much leaway as possible for electric cars, but these have a speed limite of 60 kph and limited distances travelled. For all intent and purposes they are a glorified golf cart. Which would be fine, if they can pass bumper laws and crash tests. The problem is that to put what is an easy crushing vehicle on the road with others that are way faster and crash worthy, is the same as putting bike riders out in traffic. While everyone is very cautious of each other thing go OK. But when there is a crash, the bike rider is almost always hurt badly.

If these were only used in the inner city as like in Europe etc., there maybe a market. But here in Canada and due to the vast spaces travelled these are not really viable. To put them on the road with the ok with transport Canada, is just waiting for huge law suits. But if they can get this factor worked out and meet those requirements, then I would say go for it. But retsrict them to roadways that are less then 60kph speed limit.

[Keepitsimple]

If you had watched the clip last night it did speak to the low-speed issue. It is just one of many different excuses TC has used and a bogus one at that since scooters are allowed and are classed in the low-speed category. The representative from Zenn says that once he jumps through one hoop he is presented with another. A different answer every time he approaches TC. The low-speed issue is just the newest excuse. If a scooter, why not a Zenn for urbanites?

Somehow there is more to it than what we know.

Scooters and Mopeds don't obstruct cars - they can keep to the side of the road if they go too slow. A vehicle, small though it is, can be an obstruction - and with a top speed of 40 KPH, that's what it will be - even with its little engine racing at full speed. I'd love to see Cnadian ingenuity at work as much as the next guy - but these golf carts are not suited for general transportation on our roads. Too bad - I've always loved the idea of building a 100% Canadian car.

[daniel]

We are witnessing and reading the typical skeptical responses that comes with every new invention or development.

We note that although hundreds of inventors were trying to make the airplane a reality, the Wright Brothers as well as the many Belriot Fliers and their tours couldn't make the airplane any more than just a public curiosity. Then came WWI when the airplane became an urgent need first for surveillance then for bombing and finally as a fighter.

The electric car will have to go through its own rites of passage before urgency makes it a necessity as those protectionist forces crumble.

[geoffrey]

Still doesn't address the core issues. We don't have the electricity transmission anywhere in this country to support the load of putting everyone's car on the grid everynight. Simply not possible for another 20 or 30 years.

Burning coal in our cars isn't exactly logical either. I know that most areas use only a small portion of coal, but burning 30% coal in your car is still worse than gasoline.

[daniel]

That's nothing political will and a Made-in-Canada solution can't solve.

[guyser]

The only horse and buggys allowed in city centers are those owned by tour companies. Try using one yourself and see what happens. Think about several thousand of them. I don't even want to think about the smell and I love horses.

In city centres perhaps, but the fact remains that one can drive, ie Mennonites < on public roads at slow speeds. Perhaps the market is the rural people who do not travel far? I dont know, it seems to be able to accomplish what some people want.

This thing also fails for safety reasons. It is not built in compliance to motor vehicle safety specs it is built to FMVS 500 which is the same as for golf carts and that it is why it is limited to 40 KPH.

Far enough, though from the article it seems he overcomes a TC hurdle and another is thrown up.

Reliability is not the issue. Sea-Doo's aren't used on public roads. Why shouldn't we be allowed to drive ATV's on public roads if that is your argument? Because they are powered by internal combustion engines?

Sorry to clarify I meant the Sea-Doo issue as an example with respect to who would buy one due to problems. I was not advocating atv's on the road , although I see them everywhere on roads.

As someone else opined , there is with time acceptance of an alternative .

Edited October 26, 2007 by guyser

[godzilla]

find out the REAL reason this car only does 40kmph!

most 'low speed' vehicles have on board means to cap speed available... the reason? as i indicated in my previous post, its the only way to get these light vehicles past grueling saftey standards that are designed to help protect drivers from getting driven into by a frickin hummer!

they are doing the same with electric scooters...

and the auto industry at present will push to keep it status quo!

[bush_cheney2004]

and the auto industry at present will push to keep it status quo!

Correct...a status the auto industry fought for and won when electric cars/vehicles dominated the market. EVs are neither new or untried over more than 100 years (e.g. Baker Electric, Columbia Electric, Detroit Electric, etc.). Speeds, payload, traffic densities, and most importantly, consumer choices have changed considerably from the time when electrics could compete with early ICEs.

[geoffrey]

That's nothing political will and a Made-in-Canada solution can't solve.

The many trillions in national investment in electrical transmission and generation will not be cheap, or green. It's not a simple issue.

[daniel]

The many trillions in national investment in electrical transmission and generation will not be cheap, or green. It's not a simple issue.

That's about the same amount of money already spent on the nuclear energy and it's ongoing repairs. But that doesn't stop the political will from continuing.