shavluk Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Is the sun an American possession? As it travels through their air space ,,still ,,sadly I know of Americans who are as embarrassed as I am with this Bush Regime. Homeland security so far doesn't seem to make any one feel safer , but then that really wasn't its true intention was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortunata Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 My, my it must be pretty horrible to be so insecure that we can't fly over a corner without them knowing our whole history, including credit history? And, if I remember correctly, didn't Steve, when in opposition, raise a stink about this? Seems to be another flip flop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) IMV, it is in our interest to agree with the US government on this. Are some Canadians so foolish in their anti-Americanism as to cause harm to all Canadians? If these (NDP) Canadians believe so, let them test their ideas in the market of democracy. Edited October 12, 2007 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortunata Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 IMV, it is in our interest to agree with the US government on this.Are some Canadians so foolish in their anti-Americanism as to cause harm to all Canadians? If these (NDP) Canadians believe so, let them test their ideas in the market of democracy. It's not anti-Americanism (why, why if a person disagrees with an American policy they are immediately labeled, but criticize anyone else and it's ok? jeez) to want to know why the US government needs my credit information so I can fly over US airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 IMV, it is in our interest to agree with the US government on this.Are some Canadians so foolish in their anti-Americanism as to cause harm to all Canadians? If these (NDP) Canadians believe so, let them test their ideas in the market of democracy. Do you believe that a Toronto to Calgary flight should have to report to the U.S. three days in advance who their passengers are? The U.S. program has been described as a two step program. First, it will go after all overflights, then flights from U.S. city to U.S. city. They will not exempt Canadians flying from Canadian city to Canadian city that fly over U.S. to cut time. Heck. I don't know if they will be happy with any Canadian traffic that doesn't report to them regardless of if they fly through Canadian space only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 IMV, it is in our interest to agree with the US government on this.Are some Canadians so foolish in their anti-Americanism as to cause harm to all Canadians? If these (NDP) Canadians believe so, let them test their ideas in the market of democracy. It is in no ones interest to agree with the US government on this. August, I asked the question whether you would like to share that personal information with every country you crossed over on any international flight. For instance, would you like to take a chance on it falling to the Russian Mafia's hands because you took a flight to the Orient? If the US can demand it, any other country is quite within their rights to demand the same thing and I'm sure they will because why should they force their citizens to give it up to the Americans without a quid pro quo. It has nothing to do with anti-Americanism. If Canada makes the same demands it will actually be harder on American carriers because they have far more international flights transiting Canadian airspace than we do theirs. For once I agree with Shavluk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) Do you believe that a Toronto to Calgary flight should have to report to the U.S. three days in advance who their passengers are?Yes, absolutely.First, I can understand why the US government wants to know who flies over the territory of ordinary Americans. Second, I think we Canadians should agree with ordinary Americans and the US government. WTC, Place Ville Marie, Toronto Dominion Centre. What's the difference? Third, entry to North America should be our common Canadian/US concern. It is impossible to stop someone crossing from Canada to the US. But we can stop someone from entering North America. We Canadians should explain this to Americans (and we should also explain our experience with "foreign languages".) Edited October 12, 2007 by August1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
margrace Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I think the government of Canada is already asking too many questions. Asking who one spent time with in Great Britian is none of their business. Where one traveled in England, Ireland or Scotland and who they travelled with is none of their business. But the card one is handed before landing is asking these questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I don't have a problem with it, it's their airspace afterall - its no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 August and scriblett, do you think that your personal information should be shared with every nation you overfly on an international flight? It's a hell of a big deal. I notice that the American contributors to this forum are conspicuously silent on this thread. Perhaps they are contemplating the prospect of having to do exactly that because of the actions of their own dumb assed government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maldon_road Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 August and scriblett, do you think that your personal information should be shared with every nation you overfly on an international flight? It's a hell of a big deal. I notice that the American contributors to this forum are conspicuously silent on this thread. Perhaps they are contemplating the prospect of having to do exactly that because of the actions of their own dumb assed government. They also have a right to deny us access to their airspace if they want. As we can deny them access to ours. It will just make it inconvenient all round. Don't see the US backing down, especially after the Canadian government has already acknowledged that the US has a right to this info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 They also have a right to deny us access to their airspace if they want. As we can deny them access to ours. It will just make it inconvenient all round.Don't see the US backing down, especially after the Canadian government has already acknowledged that the US has a right to this info. No, they don't have a right to this info, they have a right to refuse access to their airspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted October 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Yes, absolutely.First, I can understand why the US government wants to know who flies over the territory of ordinary Americans. Second, I think we Canadians should agree with ordinary Americans and the US government. WTC, Place Ville Marie, Toronto Dominion Centre. What's the difference? Third, entry to North America should be our common Canadian/US concern. It is impossible to stop someone crossing from Canada to the US. But we can stop someone from entering North America. We Canadians should explain this to Americans (and we should also explain our experience with "foreign languages".) I think that many on the right do not take the issue of privacy seriously enough. You are prepared to let the U.S. know your itinerary for a trip you make within Canada three days in advance of your flight and let them hold it for seven days after your trip is over? If we asked the same sharing of information from the U.S. on all its overflights which are many, I think they would screaming to the high heavens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fortunata Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 If we asked the same sharing of information from the U.S. on all its overflights which are many, I think they would screaming to the high heavens. We could try it and see but I'm not sure we'd see the outcry you envision. To many Americans (and Canadians) there is no right big enough to not give up in the name of security. It doesn't seem to matter whether it will enhance security or just appear to. Reasonable steps seems to have gone out the window in favour of treating millions as though they are terrorists even though the vast majority are just ordinary people living ordinary lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I wonder if any of those who think it is no big deal would react if they found themselves denied boarding after their Cancun vacation because someone in the US government suddenly didn't like your name or confused you with someone else. Screw ups with the no fly list are legend. You will never know why and you will have no recourse because you aren't a US citizen. How will you get home? Charter your own aircraft and have it stay beyond the 200 mile limit? Take a flight to somewhere in South America then to Canada via Europe so you can stay out of US airspace? How will Americans feel when they find their Paris vacation means sharing their info with Canada and every country in the EU? How will an American Jew deal with sharing that info with Canada, the EU, several Balkan states and possibly Turkey when the takes a flight from New York to Tel Aviv? Can you see where this is headed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maldon_road Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 No, they don't have a right to this info, they have a right to refuse access to their airspace. The way Cannon was talking he seems to accept that if we want to fly in their air space they have a right to the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 The way Cannon was talking he seems to accept that if we want to fly in their air space they have a right to the info. That's true but that is not the same as having a right to the info if you get what I mean. They can demand anything they want for access to their airspace but they will have to be prepared to give it up in return if they want to use that of others. Think about it, American business men having to give their itineraries to the Canadians, Russians and possibly Japanese when they make a business trip to China. Wouldn't that be popular? American carriers overfly many countries, do you honestly think they are all going to roll over on this without a quid pro quo? It's a dumb assed idea but nothing we haven't come to expect from this bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I do not want a foreign government over which I have no democratic control to know when I fly from one part of my country to another part of my country. I want to have a choice as to whether they can know this or not, and I do not think I should have to pay extra for this. In fact, I think I should have to pay extra for the foreign country to know this. That is my kind of democratic capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 I do not want a foreign government over which I have no democratic control to know when I fly from one part of my country to another part of my country. For the third time ......that is supposed to be excluded. Dips into the US , such as occurs Van-TO are excluded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maldon_road Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 That's true but that is not the same as having a right to the info if you get what I mean. They can demand anything they want for access to their airspace but they will have to be prepared to give it up in return if they want to use that of others. Think about it, American business men having to give their itineraries to the Canadians, Russians and possibly Japanese when they make a business trip to China. Wouldn't that be popular?American carriers overfly many countries, do you honestly think they are all going to roll over on this without a quid pro quo? It's a dumb assed idea but nothing we haven't come to expect from this bunch. I'm sure the Americans understand that. They are no doubt banking on the fact that other countries don't care enough to collect this info. And if they do, so what? It's the airlines that have to do all the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 (edited) For the third time ......that is supposed to be excluded. Dips into the US , such as occurs Van-TO are excluded. Sorry. I was reponding to the previous post. If this is true, then a tip of the hat to Steve. Edited October 12, 2007 by Higgly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 I'm sure the Americans understand that. They are no doubt banking on the fact that other countries don't care enough to collect this info. And if they do, so what? It's the airlines that have to do all the work. What if they all do, and why wouldn't they? If the US government is going to make then collect all this info on their nationals and hand it over to them, why wouldn't they make the Americans do the same for them? How many countries do you want to have this information? It is purely a fishing exercise on the part of the American government and if Harper craters on this without demanding and getting exactly the same information on US overflights of Canada, my vote is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 .... It doesn't seem to matter whether it will enhance security or just appear to. Reasonable steps seems to have gone out the window in favour of treating millions as though they are terrorists even though the vast majority are just ordinary people living ordinary lives. Actually, in their "ordinary lives" these same people have disclosed far more personal information than travel itinerary, information that is traded and sold every day. Every purchase by credit card, every loan application, every cell phone call, every car rental, ...even magazine subscriptions. There is no privacy because of our own consumption...get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Actually, in their "ordinary lives" these same people have disclosed far more personal information than travel itinerary, information that is traded and sold every day. Every purchase by credit card, every loan application, every cell phone call, every car rental, ...even magazine subscriptions. There is no privacy because of our own consumption...get over it. Then let them get their information that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 13, 2007 Report Share Posted October 13, 2007 Then let them get their information that way. I'm sure they already do.....this latest hype is just the cover story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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