Moonbox

and right there, along with most of your other posts, is pretty good evidence that you're just here to troll.

There's no secret agenda. The Conservatives can come up with as many alternative plans as they want. They're not really making the environment a central issue for their government. They're making other things the priority. Sure, maybe if everything else is all worked out they'll look into it, but the CPC constituency is not counting/caring about additional environmental initiatives right now. I may be speaking for people that don't want to be spoken for, but I don't think the average CPC voter is going to start crying about broken promises if the government doesn't implement some sort of carbon tax. As if McCain's website means anything. What he's saying is about as realistic as Hilary and Obama threatening to drop NAFTA. Campaign rhetoric. Americans love to hear their politicians talk tough about other countries. Most of them, however, don't realize that the Americans have placed their balls in our hands as far as energy goes right now, and they're not about to jeapordize that. Europe (which matters relatively little in comparison in terms of trade) will also do nothing, because their truckers are blocking roads and their freighters are blocking ports because of prohibitively high fuel costs right now. The people there aren't really any more thrilled than most Canadians are about carbon taxes.

The difference is that the NDP's plan is irrelevant and they can say whatever they want, and the Conservatives are not really making it a central point for their government. Even if re-elected, I highly doubt that the CPC will even bother to implement their own plan. The Liberals on the other hand, have basically staked their fortunes on the Green Shift and Canadian's acceptance of it. It WILL cost people money indirectly or directly, and it's a stupid thing to be worrying about right now in a sluggish world economy especially when Canada's carbon emissions are negligible compared to China or India's. Both countries, as it may happen, will not be joining the Green Shift. All it is going to do is force industry to shift production even more overseas or raise prices and there will be virtually no net reduction in carbon emissions...period. It will mean higher prices in Canada and more money wasted/lost.

and yet again you've managed to completely ignore every point that was brought up and come up with another useless insight supported by an analogy that's completely inapt. If you even read my post (which I doubt) I tried to explain that there was no benefit to the carbon tax plans that are being tabled right now. Congratulations on wasting ANOTHER post.

Let's face it. Canada's economy (despite what is happening with oil in Alberta) is struggling right now. More jobs than we can really count have been shipped off to China and Mexico etc and have been replaced in large part by minimum wage (or close to it) service jobs and now our governments are currently proposing that we further handicap Canadian industry with carbon emissions 'taxes'. As far as I'm concerned, the Green Shift is total balogna. When the Liberals first announced it, I thought it was a joke. A country like China, with 1.2 billion people, and no environmental standards to speak of, is what we should be worried about, not Canada, a country whose population is about 1/40th the size of China's. Why should we penalize our manufacturers and have them move their operations overseas where they'd likely just end up polluting more? It's about as logical in my opinion as the doctors of hundreds of years ago bleeding their patients to cure them of illness. You're hurting Canada, and you're doing basically nothing to fix the underlying problem. The BS about the west setting an example for countries like China should also be laughed at. They're not taking our example as far as intellectual property, fair wages, human rights and so on, and you i'll GUARANTEE they'll be laughing at our 'example' of environmentalism. Until the West is willing to stand up to China, India etc and make them play by the same rules we do, our environment is 100% most assuredly borked either way. Dion's Green Shift is BAD for Canada. It WILL end up costing people money indirectly (I won't explain here unless asked to because there's another thread going on about that) and I can't even begin to understand how people could support it. I don't think Stephen Harper's or Jack Layton's plans are any better for the record. I don't worry about them, however, because Layton's is irrelevant and because I highly doubt that the Conservatives are really looking to go ahead with their own plan anyways. The Conservatives are not making the environment a central point of their government. The Liberals, for whatever out-of-touch reason, are.

What you 'think' matters about as much as what I had for breakfast. I could just as easily say I 'think' that the Liberals and the NDP seek votes from the lowest common denominators in Canada and make their promises directed towards these people but then when they form the government they govern almost as far to the right as the Conservatives do. Now the difference between you and me, however, is that when i say what I 'think', I'm willing to provide a multitude of examples to support what I 'think' so as to not to appear like I'm just blowing hot air. Here's what I think/know about the Liberals and their environmental policy. Canada signed the Kyoto protocol in 1998 (under a fairly similar Liberal government with many of the same faces as MP's today) which was ratified and made law I'm pretty sure in 2002. From 2002-2006 the Liberals did virtually nothing to follow up with Kyoto and did not set or meet any benchmarks in this time. In 2006, a Conservative Government, already many years behind on Kyoto thanks to the Liberals, inherited targets that by now were nothing short of unachievable. Now, in a time where the cost of doing business for manufacturers is putting thousands upon thousands of people out of work and our economy is slowing down, Dion decides it's a good time to penalize already struggling industries even further with a carbon tax that will make a 100% negligible difference in the world environment. Hmm...... I 'THINK' that the Liberals are out to lunch right now. As for Layton, don't make me laugh. Anyone who brings him into an argument these days will get nothing but smirks from me. He can promise whatever he wants knowing he has no chance to form a government.

which is basically what everyone else does for the party of their choice. What's your point? Yes...there is a lot of partisanship going on in Canadian politics. Supporters of the Liberals and NDP do the exact same thing.

While I'm 100% against any carbon or gas taxes at this point in time, one of the policies of western governments right now that makes me want to pull my hair out is ethanol fuel. While I respect where you are coming from Blueblood (I would do the same if I was a family farmer) the fact is that ethanol fuel is a gigantic waste of money and resources for pretty much everyone everywhere. The only thing it has going for it is that it's renewable. Now for the bad: Ethanol costs more money to bring to the pumps. It is expensive to transport (it's corrossive and requires more careful transport and mixing with other gasolines). Ethanol is about 30% less fuel efficient than regular gasoline. While you cause less pollution per tank of gas with ethanol in it, the lessened fuel efficiency just means you're going to burn more gas. The reallocation of land from food crops to subsidized corn ethanol production also increases the food prices, and has already done so worldwide. The price of bread has increased unbelievably this year for this very reason. So the average taxpayer would have to ask, "Why are we subsidizing farmers just so we can pay more at the pumps and more at the grocery store?" It's literally one of the stupidest policies in recent Canadian government history, providing literally no net benefit to an average Canadian while at the same time costing him/her a crapton of money. Mark my words, corn ethanol production isn't going to last. It's one of the least efficient sources of energy we have going right now. When enough people realize that they can directly blame it for the empty holes in their wallets, the policies will be dropped. Honestly, if the Liberals made it a policy to cancel ethanol fuel subsidies, I would vote for them, despite the fact that I like nothing else about them.

What is sorely lacking in this country, however, is any sense of what 'multi-culturalism' really is. I think what most Canadians think when they hear 'multi-culturalism' is families speaking their own language at home and eating exotic food. Families and friends who listen to Indian or Japanese music or have a Jamaican wedding might be considered 'multi-cultural'. What is, unfortunately, NOT in my definition of multi-culturalism would be entire communities of ethnic peoples living completely apart from Canadian economic and legal systems, who at the same time demand the same social services as the average Canadian. If you visit certain areas of Toronto, for example, you'll find entire malls filled with stores selling pirated DvDs out in the open, with people bartering and insisting on nothing but cash payment (for obvious reasons). This would not fly in your average 'Canadian' communities, but it is allowed for some reason in our 'multi-cultural- ones. When entire communities live outside Canadian laws, share nothing of our values, don't speak a word of english (thereby excluding us from their communities and cultures), how is that really MULTI culturalism??? That's more like a slow, step by step annexation of the country.

You didn't use Nazi or Hitler in your post. You fail at Godwin's Law. It's okay though...that's not really a bad thing

Two..... Come on people someone has to bite! We're almost there!

He fought tooth and nail with the NCC to get the gag law repealed. It didn't work, the Supreme Court saw to that. Now he is no longer part of the NCC, but rather the Prime Minister of Canada. His principles would suggest he'd ban gay marriage and abortion as well, but he's not going to do that either. Why? Because it would be the end of his political career. As an expert opinion on politicians and the inner-workings of government, you have to wonder why you haven't been able to come to the simple conclusion that politicians, by their very nature, seek to extend their positions to as much as possible. I don't think any of us are under the illusion that any of our recent Prime Ministers didn't have their own best interests in mind. Is it hypocritical to hide behind election gag laws after you denounced them for years? Yes, no argument. With that being said, Harper was not the one who enacted this law in the first place. That was Chretien, and as far as I'm concerned it's COMPLETELY ethical to have the Liberals taste their own medecine for a few years after fighting to keep it in place all the way to the Supreme Court. That's poetic justice, and pretty funny to boot. If you insist on playing an unfair game, don't go crying when your opponent turns your own rules against you.

For someone so well versed in politics, you have to wonder where you come up with such a biased and unfounded statement like this. As far as the NCC and gag law issue is concerned, your declaration of hypocrisy I find somewhat amusing. Harper campaigned to have it repealed, it went to the Supreme Court and was upheld. This was when the Liberals were the ruling goverment. Chretien came up with that. Now that Harper is leading the government with the CPC, Liberals and their supporters (the Toronto Star in particular), cry like the babies they are because a law they enacted isn't being repealed. At this point in time, why WOULD Harper repeal the law? Really? Yes, I guess it's something he probably considers the right thing to do, but I'm sure there are thousands of things he thinks are the right thing to do but are probably a stupid thing to do. Why repeal a gag law that your opponents (who are completely broke now) enacted in the first place and which is currently crippling their ability to advertise and promote their cause? If I were him, I'd do nothing as well. Now that the Liberals are getting a taste of it, maybe they'll repeal this (another one of Trudeau's abominations) next time they form a government.

While I AM a supporter of Harper thus far, I can never really wrap my head around an argument like this. What the hell are you talking about with 'freedom of choice' and destroying society etc. The CPC hasn't really changed anything as far as freedoms of choice are concerned, and the Liberals didn't really do much either. What are you talking about? I'm completely opposed to the Liberal platform altogether, but your comment is so abstract it almost comes across as meaningless. Again...what are you talking about?

Biased testimonials like yours mean pretty much nothing on an online forum where nobody can verify what you're saying. You've met a lot of politicians huh? Are we talking shaking hands or really getting to know them? Did you live in the US, Germany, Australia and the UK and actually have a vested interest in the politics there? What was your experience there? Is there any possible chance that you MIGHT be exaggerating your knowledge of foreign and domestic politicians and in turn exaggerating your personal feelings of Stephen Harper? Maybe? Just maybe??

Pardon my colorful rhetoric. While pieces of meat aren't literally flying this way and that and the floor isn't totally covered in pieces of meat, there most certainly are the odd pieces here and there that do end up on the floor. These are the trimmings and little giblets etc. You literally can't avoid the odd piece falling to the floor on a regular basis. You're right, they're not dirty when they hit the floor. They ARE dirty when they get stuck in the tread of boots, or in their laces and shoe buckles etc and then are worn off the production floor, stored at room temperature in lockers for weekends, and then worn down again to the production floor. This is what I'm talking about. You're also not going to keep the floor clean when people are walking all over the place in the factory outside the production floor. There WILL be contamination on the floor unless you have disinfectant spraying the floor 24/7. While I do take insult to your basically calling me a liar, I'll try to respond with some cold hard logic. Yes, fat trimming on the floor is lost money. At the same time, if your workforce has to work so carefully that NO fat trimming hits the floor, they'll be working so slowly that the company would lose money anyways. I'm not talking about the kill floor either. I'm talking about big pieces of meat going to the packaging plant, being cut by BONESAWS that would take a man's hand off in 2 seconds into smaller dinner-sized portions, and then being packaged for grocery stores. I left the factory floor as often as not with blood and marrow and meat pulp on me from my boots up to my chest. I had to wear plastic aprons down to my knees because of this. Don't even try to tell me that there isn't going to be the odd piece of fat or sawed up meat goop falling on the floor, because I've literally lived that for about 10 months of my life.

Touché. I really don't have anything to respond to that with. All I can really say is that having worked in a meat factory, I'm not surprised and I also think it's impossibly hard to regulate fully.

I'm talking about the pieces of meat that go flying when the cutters are chopping up the meat, or opening up bags of meat, or scraping them clean etc etc etc. A lot of meat goes flying around. A lot of shavings and marrow etc ends up on the floor and on you as you work. You end up with crap all over your boots and in your tread, and then when you walk outside the production floor that's no longer refrigerated and is allowed to rot. You clean most of it off, but not all, and there's no way those floors are clean halfway through a shift.

Yes I know...I likely just waste time explaining it. Dion knows this, that's for sure. Too bad most of his supporters don't. This is so true it hurts. My favorite was the outcry when Harper said he wasn't going to proceed with the naval vessel contract. The liberals for years neglected to spend an extra dime on Canada's military, but when the CPC doesn't go ahead with an over-budget contract, Liberal supporters cry bloody murder. Hilarious. I'll take your word for it, but it's hard to really see it sometimes.

Exactly

Cooking really is the key isn't it? Too bad you can't count on everyone at home and at restaurants to follow safe food practises. Rotten meat, yes. Your boots don't get stored in a refrigerator nor is there really a good way to make sure your boots get perfectly clean every time you leave the floor. What are you going to do, have people supervising 300 employees at the end of every shift watching each and every one of them clean their boots? Not possible. As for me and my shame, spare me. The student workers there got fired for things as small as stretching out their backs too much. With a university education riding on my and my friends' continued employment there, I wasn't about to kick up a stink. The fact is even if you do report it it's not like you have any proof. The meat inspectors would show up again, everyone would behave, and there would be nothing to note. Bottom line is you have to cook your meat. The people who don't either aren't handling their food properly or the restaurants they eat at aren't.

You're really failing to see the point here. The fixed election date is pretty much useless in a minority government. It makes total sense for a majority government, as Chretien and others abused the ability to call an election whenever the winds looked favorable, but it's a completely different story for a minority. I'll repeat, once again, that Dion has been threatening an election all year. Everyone against Harper has been saying, "Bring it ON! It's time to end Harper's tyranny and put an end to the EVIL CONSERVATIVE EMPIRE." Now that he's finally agreed it might be time, the same people who have been hoping for an election have turned around and started saying it was wrong what he did. Basically, according to these people, Stephen Harper should make sure that he gives every advantage possible to the Liberal government in regards to when the next election should be called. Harper should make sure that the next election either happens at the fixed date, or at a time the Liberals choose, almost certainly a time when they feel they have the upper hand. Now ask yourself, why would he do that? Would the Liberals do that if the position were reversed? I think we can all safely assume no, given that Chretien dissolved a popular MAJORITY government to do pretty much the same thing Harper is thinking of doing. The difference here, of course, is that Chretien had a functioning majority government whereas Harper has a minority government bungled down in committees. This is a government whose opposition leader has been fussing the entire year that he will bring the government down, yet fails to show up for all the confidence votes. When this threat is constant and ever present, you have to take it at face value. The fixed election date becomes irrelevant when the opposition has made it perfectly clear it intends to bring down the government. How can you have a functioning government when over half of Parliament votes against legislation or abstains from voting altogether? I can only shake my head and wonder at those of you who actually think that it's reasonable for a fragile and unstable government to carry on and wait for its opposition, which has already threatened to bring down the government, to gather support and funding in order to do so at the best time possible for them. What you're really doing here is just whining like little kids. You know you'd support it if it was the Liberals doing the same thing, but reverse the position and you wet your beds.

3000 meat inspectors isn't enough to do the job quite frankly. I can speak from experience here as well. I spent 4 summers working at a meat packaging plant to help fund my education, and quite frankly the workers there took no pride in the product they were producing. At this plant, when a piece of meat fell on the ground, guess what happened? Someone, sometimes even a supervisor, would pick the piece of meat up, spray it with a bit of water and clean it off, and put it right back on the production line. When you have hundreds of people walking around with raw, rotten and bloody meat on their boots, even the dimmest of people would know that the right thing to do would be to throw that piece of meat out after it hits the floor. Sadly this doesn't always happen. The meat inspectors can't be there every day. Sure, when they WERE there, everyone would behave properly, but as soon as they were gone, it was back to normal. The companies themselves need to ensure quality and to some extent be held responsible for tainted meat problems like this. On the other hand, there's no way they could afford the steps necessary to make the meat 100% safe 100% of the time. There's too many variables to account for, the worst of which are the people working with meat. Moral of the story is: Cook your meat. That should be a no-brainer by now but apparently it isn't

Or he knows that for the last year parliament has been focused on pretty much nothing but a possible election. The threat of an election looming ever overhead is enough to make parliament disfunctional. If Harper feels that he cannot advance his voter-given mandate because he has to adjust every bill to meet the needs of the bleating sheep in parliament, that IS disfunctional, despite what wussy Dion has been saying. Dion said he may be ready for an election, Harper said, "Fine let's get it over with," and now Dion is looking like a chump for getting called on his bluff. See this is rhetoric again. His bullying? Give us a solid example that would be any different than Chretien or Layton or whoever else there's been in recent history. His stance changing and pandering? Are you kidding me??? Pandering is how the Liberals have become the dominant force in politics for the last 20 years. Where does almost ALL of the Liberal's support come from I'll ask? Large urban centres. What's different about these places? Dominant ethnic populations. Why are these predominantly liberal? Because you'd be hard-pressed to find a more lenient immigration policy ANYWHERE in the western world than Liberal immigration policy. Large concentrations of ethnic people vote almost EXCLUSIVELY liberal, and that's because the Liberals make it easy for their aunts and uncles and parents and grandparents to move here under 'family-reunification' and so mooch off of our social welfare system. When we go over ethics, I think we can basically rule out any advantage the Liberals may have in that department, so even if the Liberals WERE able to nail him on any issue of poor ethics, they'd not have a leg to stand on. As for beliefs, THANK THE GODS that we have a politician who's more concerned with governing the country well than he is with his own personal beliefs. If he had any intention of changing abortion laws, or gay marriage laws, or anything else like that, I'd likely cast my vote with the sheep herd and go Liberal. I'm smart enough, however, to know that Harper has no intention to even touch these, because he's smart enough to know that Canadians want nothing to do with that....kind of like Dion's LOLGREENSHIFTLOL.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why are we claiming the North if we're not going to develop it? Nobody lives there, and it WILL be developed, whether the eco-pandas like it or not. It had better be us instead of the Russians, Americans or Danes. Use it or lose it