Wild Bill

Well, if the Tories did not get more votes than the Liberals, more than the NDP and we are not in a minority government, how did they possibly win a majority? Or are you adding up all the Liberal and NDP voters, along with all those that did not vote for anyone and deciding that they ALL would be against Tory approach on this particular issue? I bow to your spectacular display of psychic powers!

Exactly, AW! Argentina can make any noises it wishes but the only way they will ever take the Falklands is as a military aggressor! If they do they will then deserve to be treated as such by all other nations!

60% against? How did you get that figure? I don't recall any referenda about any pipeline? How do you know that 60% of the people are against the Tory approach to handling the pipeline issue?

I think you may be right, Wyly. Unless Britain elects a PM perceived as weak enough to "wuss out". I find it interesting that when debating this dispute between Argentina and GB few folks ever mention the wishes of the Falklanders themselves, as if their wants are irrelevant! They have lived on that island for generations! There's been a permanent British colony since 1833. The islands were first discovered by the British and then later by Spain. There were some brief visits by both nations and the USA but nobody settled a colony until Britain. The Islanders have been British for about 180 years! What the hell ever happened to one of the most basic founding principles of the United Nations, that of a people's self-determination? The Islanders have said many times they have absolutely no desire to be governed by Argentina! They want to stay British, which was the whole reason Margaret Thatcher took Britain to war to protect them! Seems to me the Islanders have a far, far better claim to be British than the Argentines have to take the Islands from them, on the basis of a few minor historical entries. This is a much more straight forward case than perhaps any other in the world, especially and including the Palestinians! Yet nobody ever seems to defend the poor Falklanders!

Oh, I don't know. It keeps guys like me voting for them! The question is, are there more guys like me or like YOU? If last election was any indicator, I would say you're in the minority. If you disagree, we can just wait and see. If you are still around the day after the next election we can remind each other...

To be fair Star, there's hope for the NDP! When they were in the position of never expecting to govern it was easy to adopt all the impractical "granola" causes they could find. It was support that was easy to take from the other parties and they could make all the demands and promises necessary for that support without ever having to actually deliver. This was the problem for Bob Rae with his NDP government in Ontario. He won by a fluke that was totally unexpected! They had all those outstanding promises and almost no practical and experienced MPs! That's why they made so many mistakes. Andrea Horvath has inherited much of that damage even today. With Layton, it was different. He had seemed to be slowly dragging his party into the real world almost from the first day he took over. I had some sympathy for him as at times he looked like a young boy trying to control a 100 lb dog on a walk but he managed surprisingly well! I don't think he ever expected the massive out of the blue Quebec support last election but he was confident of making some good gains and had positioned his party to look much more mature and responsible than they ever had before! Now Jack has gone and it is desperately important for his party to elect a leader who has the same clear vision. While it is doubtful they will win power in the foreseeable futur, they could become the usual Opposition for many more terms, perhaps delivering the death blow to the Liberals. Or they could return to their old ways, at which point the gains won by Jack would be squandered. Canadian politics are rapidly changing. Hard rightwing politics may be anathema to winning an election but so are hard socialist ones. Few voters seriously believe that hard socialism actually WORKS! The Canadian way is more like that practiced on the west coast, where they alternate between NDP and Liberals while the people joke that "one party brings the pork and the other one then pays for it!" I suspect the next election will bring even more changes! Things may change but at this point it looks like it is the Liberals who are adapting the most poorly...

It's those policies that have kept me from ever even considering voting NDP, Star! When Iran has just nuked Israel, our electricity grid is experiencing frequent blackouts and gasoline costs so much people are taking rikshaws to work, the NDP seems to always have some MP who will introduce a bill making bike lanes mandatory in all Canadian cities. I've never denied that most of them have big hearts! They can make very good friends, as I well know myself. They just never seem to be the most practical of leaders, with down to earth ideas that might actually work! They just keep shouting that we can all be very comfortable if we just tax the crap out of those evil rich folks, taking it for granted those rich folks will stick around and provide jobs. They seem to take their dreams not as inspiration but as blueprints! A bridge built by the NDP might be the prettiest and the most ecological friendly but I would never feel comfortable and safe driving across it!

Of course they are! They're politicians, if you hadn't noticed! The only difference is, the OTHER GUYS are worse! That's what it means to be Canadian. We get to choose who smells the least, not who we actually approve! If you think the "other guys" are saints then I have some swampland in Florida you may be interested in buying...

You just gotta mix up everything into one anti-Tory ball of wax, don't you? I've already said that I can see that Tony has made a mistake and there should be an inquiry - with teeth! The issue here is the Defence Minister's use of military aircraft - a completely different issue! I realize that to you and Olp1fan it's all the same and if someone disagrees with you on one he HAS to also disagree on the other but I'm afraid I just can't do live up to your caricature! For the record, based upon what we know at this point in time I support McKay but not Clemente. I'm sure you have a whole list of things that I HAVE to believe! Sorry if I won't play your game.

I'd be happy if you just knew the difference between different political philosophies and stopped calling me a Conservative. Do you even know what a classic liberal is? After reading your posts since you showed up on this board, I don't believe you do! Furthermore, it would appear that you don't really care! Certainly, you don't let it slow you down any.

Well, if the context is military that's certainly true. The UK actually has one! At least, one that dwarfs our few frigates and an old canteen supply ship. No doubt some will leap to attack my joking criticism but the fact remains, Britain has aircraft carriers, submarines, Harriers and nukes. Between the UK and Canada as far as a military goes, there is just no comparison. If the balloon goes up, your 'closest' ally is the one who can bring the most to the fight.

Are you seriously equating a Defence Minister taking a ride in a military aircraft for possible personal use with the AdScam scandal of millions of dollars, only a paltry amount of which could be traced in Judge Gomery's audit? "Mommy! Mommy! I'm sorry I burnt down the house playing with matches! But that's old stuff! Didn't you see that my brother was picking his nose just now?"

Oh, I'll admit that McKay seems to have blown this one! I just take exception to making it the crime of the century! I mean, the bar for political integrity is pretty low after all those Liberal years. McKay is just operating in the Ottawa status quo! Everybody's judgement is off once in a while. Chretien was off by a LOT many times during his terms and I don't recall the same degree of outrage! The reason I keep bringing up "old stuff" that seems to so infuriate Olp1fan is not that I'm trying to excuse a present sin. I've already said that as sins go this one is pretty lame-ass! No, I do it to illustrate that Olp1fan's outrage is so partisan and selective, along with so many of his fellows. The picture is simple to understand.A liberal sins and it is forgiven or even ignored, no matter how egregious. A Tory makes no matter how trivial a sin and always someone like Olp1fan immediately stands up and screams that it is a crime against Man, dogs and God! And then when I point out his silence on the liberal faux pas he replies "Old stuff don't count! Fugeddabout it!" THAT'S what I'm pointing out! The hypocrisy! The partisanship! Partisan thinking is for trolls and idiots! It's a waste of everyone's time on a forum like this! Has anyone ever seen me post that anyone in the NDP is a commie pinko? Never have and never would! But almost every day we see slams against any and all conservatives, as if they were the proverbial reptilian kitten eaters! And I get called a Conservative as if it's some kind of synonym for evil, when I'm a classic Liberal! The ignorance is overwhelming!

I've always believed in science, from a young age. I've never accepted religion. You really do see the world and anyone who disagrees with you as just one great big straw man, don't you? I guess if you define how everything works and how everyone else thinks it's very easy to always think you're right! If THAT'S not religious type thinking I don't know what is!

Perhaps you should cut Britain a little slack, BC. She was the ONLY Allied nation to pay off her war debt! Helluva lot more than the French did!

Who the hell said they are MY MPs? I don't have a political party to root for, at least not anymore. I would cheerfully criticize the Tories as much or more as I criticize the others, if I thought there was an issue of substance. As opposed to your approach, which is to throw crap at ANYTHING to see what sticks! You often go WAY past what is reasonable! Your hatred of the Tories is so blatant and obvious that it makes anything you post predictable. One doesn't have to read beyond the topic label to know exactly what you are going to say! It's like reading the Toronto Star! Why bother? Every page is just a variation of "Hate Harper!" or "Hate Hudak!" or "Hate Ford!", with the occasional report of an earthquake in Ebonia on page7, AFTER all the "Hate Tories" stuff. Back in Reform days we used to say that if Preston Manning discovered a cure for cancer the Star would report it as "Manning Takes Away Doctors' Jobs!" You and Topaz must crib from the same book! If you must dredge up nothing but mud, couldn't you find something that's not trivial once in a while? Find me evidence that Harper has a stripper as a mistress! Or that McKay is selling military secrets to the Chinese. I realize those are not good examples. Harper is an accountant and as such we'd be surprised if he had an affair with his own wife! And Canada doesn't have any military secrets modern enough to interest China. Still, there must be something more interesting than a Defence Minister taking a trip on a military aircraft! At least he has the guts to run the same risk as our servicemen and servicewomen! Rumour is that Chretien's ministers were under strict orders to never fly in a Sea King helicopter, for fear of the obvious scandal if they died in a crash!

This, after all the "Harper is EVIL!" posts?

Back during the early Pliocene Era, when I was young, I saw first hand methods that worked! Being a navy brat I had attended a number of city schools as our family moved around. Eventually we settled down in a rural area just outside of Hamilton. I was in grade 5, as I recall. The rural school amazed me! No playground, just a big open field with a fence to keep the cows from stepping on the kids! The school had a number of kids that were HUGE for their grade! 15 year olds in grade 5, that had been promoted by what was called the "3 year method". This being the days when students could actually fail a grade, these louts were found every 3 years to be just too damn big and were promoted a grade anyway. You can argue about whether or not this was fair to their self-esteem but the fact remained that these lougans were a big bullying problem. Any kid smaller than them was fair game. Since they were so large that was pretty well the entire schoolful. The teachers were of little help. Most of them were women and afraid of the bullies themselves. Playground supervision consisted of looking out the door of one end of the school and then walking the length of the hall to stick your nose out at the other end! Never would they actually step foot on the school yard! As expected, more and more parents became angry at the situation (this was also when parents as a whole routinely would become involved) and eventually were storming the gates of the school board. So one spring we were surprised to find that our principal had been replaced! The old "fuddydudd" was gone, without even time to say goodbye! We had a new principal who seemed nice but wasn't nearly as prone to accept any lip. One by one he would confront some bully for an infraction. He and the bully would go out back behind the shed, where the new principal would wail the tar out of the lout! Afterwards, the bully was sent home and we never saw him again! Eventually all the bullies were gone and the school actually became a very pleasant place to be! Everyone's morale and most important, marks improved greatly. Being kids, we had no real idea what had happened to the bullies. Not being old enough to understand permanent expulsions, we had no idea about being sent to other schools or institutions like reform school. Some of us thought the bullies had been hung! Today of course such actions would not be allowed. Look how well things are working today!

I try to! It's just hard when so many on this forum seem to ONLY take shots at Tories! They constantly give Liberals and/or NDP a free pass! It actually gets to be boring! I've taken shots at Tories too, despite the fact that so many ignorant posters seem to think that I am one! After all, they are ALL politicians! Except of course, Layton, who is apparently now a Saint and no one may now criticize him...

For Pete's Sake! The Chretien Liberals did that for over 10 years! One of the biggest was the Clarity Act! As usual, it's only wrong if a Tory does it! You're like a windup doll...

Oh yeah! It's a crime against the Universe! Hell, we should bring back capital punishment just for McKay! After all, he's a Tory, isn't he? This is just more blatant partisan crap! Military planes and pilots NEED a certain number of hours in the air! You don't just park them on the ground and only bring them out if there's a war. Skills must be kept up and aircraft maintained. So if the flippin' DEFENCE MINISTER wants to use a military craft for ANY reason why shouldn't one be available? As for lying, there's a very simple reason. The "anti-everything just because its Tory" contingent is just so loud and annoying that its easier just to lie and hope they don't wake up and start mouthing off! They're like Jack Russell terriers! Yappy little bastards that will bite you quick as look at you and NEVER shut the frig up! You know, I bet when McKay arrives at any military base he has to check in at some reception desk. By introducing himself and asking where he can see the base commander he would be taking up some soldier's time away from his military duties! This time should be totalled and deducted from McKay's salary as an MP! There! I've given you another idea for a new thread! Its just as good as most of your others! Man, where were you when Chretien was in power? If you are as fair as you seem to claim you would have had a field day tearing ol' Jean apart!

Ok, let's say you're absolutely right! Now, what does that change with my explanation about Harper's action? Would you rather put Suncor into bankruptcy to soothe your outrage?

It's not that easy, MG. Not even Suncor can take a 1.2 billion dollar hit with no advance warning! It would likely put the company under, losing all the Canadian jobs with it. At that point, all the Harper haters would be gleefully jumping all over him, for killing such a huge company! This is the problem with sanctions sometimes. They can hit both ways. Nobody expected this "Arab Spring" phenomenon to spring up so suddenly. No one expected the ruler of Syria to be such a murderous a**hole! This is the same sort of situation that Russia and China often find themselves in. They sign big business deals with ruthless dictators only once in a while there's a revolution that jeopardizes their money! Usually the sums involved are so large that they have no choice but to support the despot. Not that despots have ever bothered them as much as it bothers western countries but still, they just don't have many options.

The problem is, the system will NOT defend them! Instead, it will pass more "zero tolerance" rules, sensitivity training and if really pushed, give bullies suspensions that they treat as holidays. The young mind is too immature to be affected by the "soft" methods of discipline adopted by the "system" these past few decades. It is not capable of properly envisioning future consequences of its actions the same as an adult. Since the people responsible for the system will never want to admit that their methods have been total failures, they all pretend to be doing something while victims are still being bullied. Worse yet, today's bullying methods have advanced greatly over that of days of yore. Even if physically the victim has a chance of fighting back, bullies just band together to make that impossible. What's more, bullies instinctively understand that the system will not seriously punish them so they bully with impunity! Under the new zero tolerance rules, many of us have seen instances where a child was pushed beyond his limits and attempted to fight back, only to have some supervising teacher see the battle and suspend BOTH the bully AND the victim! In effect, the victim becomes a victim twice. He or she also has the lesson reinforced that it is pointless to appeal to the "system" for protection! Today's situation is both a joke and a travesty. I worry that eventually things will get totally out of hand. If a victim is driven to committing suicide, it is a small step to use some "suicide bomber" tactic to take a few bullies with them! How bad will things get before we return to methods that WORKED?

And It is simplistic of you to assume that having the Bomb is the answer to everything! Pakistan could sit on its Bomb while America froze its bank accounts, cut off ALL trade and pressured its allies into doing the same. Remember that Pakistan is a poor country. What little money it had was spent on developing their nuclear weapons and their military, NOT feeding their people! They depend on foreign aid for much of that, aid that could be drastically cut by an angry America. Or, they could accept a huge pot of money for becoming America's friend and pick up some brownie points in world opinion while they were at it, by pretending to be more progressive than they actually are. Or is it your contention that instead of knuckling under Pakistan could have simply tossed a nuke at Uncle Sam?