madmax

He has done exactly what people expect him to do. Is there a price for this.. Always. Nothing in life is free, and its time like these that you want your rep to stand up and do the right thing. So what if the party tosses you out? Yes, the road will be difficult ahead, but it is better then being the chicken nodder. What is important is that to prove the constituents were behind him, he is going to need their support in the next election.

That's it in a nutshell. Yet Macho isn't the first person I have encountered who has made similar points on swinging between Libertarian and Socialism. Maybe...... Freedom with the safety net. Most Trapeze artists use them these days.....

You are not alone. While I don't fully agree with your description of the NDP, there is no doubt that some of the earlier Liberatarian elements that exist as free spirits in the NDP might have drifted off sometime ago, with the last of them leaving with the Reform Party. There is little doubt that some of your views once existed in the NDP, however they could well have been brought to the table by lunch bucket union guys when the NDP was formed. Some of the unexpected factors when the CCF officially merged with Labour. I have a Liberatarian streak in me. I think we all do to some degree. I don't think any person can claim to be the stereotype of a political party. Thus LIbertarians sometimes not only can feel comfortable with the NDP sometimes, but just as likely to go to Reform or back in the day Social Credit. There isn't a strong Liberatian party, unfortuneately. There isn't necessarily a strong Social Democratic Party either, as the NDP is often checked into being fiscally responsible and somewhat Conservative by nature when in power, thus are no wheres near Socialism in Europe, and the further left parties of Social Democracy don't really exist in Canada. I Libertarian has to pick a party, sometimes its the Conservatives, sometimes its the NDP, but often they are without a real home. There is a funny trend to what I call the Socialist Conservative. THey want all the Good things that Socialism brings, but want it managed in a Conservative fashion. THat is the difference between their vote going LIberal in that the Liberal PRograms are often big in nature and elaborate pork barrelling. Unfortuneately the Conservatives fall into that pork trap too, and have to continue to reinvent themselves in order to get back on track. I don't think there is alot of room for a discussion on "Social Democracy" on MLW.... because I don't see it in this country, And since you are stretching me to the limit on discussion Unions and making me go back to my University studies on Labour Market economics... well... I am pretty tapped out. But I like the dimensions you have brought to the forum in all the threads you ahve posted.

You are on the right track.... THere is Union Rep on virtually all Training and Adjustment boards. Unions are not threatened by school choice. THey are threatened by the rampant deskilling of the workplace while governments hype retraining for non existant jobs. Going to University often requires followup in College and sometimes visa versa. Tech shops are scaled back because they cost the most to run in the high school and academics are the first to point the finger at the shop classes when budget cuts are implemented. Fact is, if you go to University, your first few years in the workplace, you are a burden to everyone if you find a job. Green and wet behind the ears, often working on theory alone and theory for business models. If you don't find a job in your field in those first few years... often you are working for minimum wages unless you got a good job in a Union SHop as a student because of a family relative. This is very helpful if you require to continue to educate yourself to make your skills more attractive, or buy time until you ahve found a suitable employer. You are correct, the economy cannot handle everyone as a scientist... But China and India can pump out more in a year then we can educate in a lifetime.

Your taxes have been going down. WHat is the economic value of a company shutting down as opposed to signing a contract? If you can squeeze water out of a rock, you aren't going on strike for more money. If that Rock is merely a SPONGE disguised as a ROCK, then you can squeeze until it runs down your leg. The market is one variable in wages. Hardly the determinant factor. The Labour Market has many variables. Often the price of Labour is not the determinant in the survivability of an enterprise. Power can determine the wage. Intimidation from above can determine the wage. A Union can determine a wage to a degree. Profit Margins and the ability to get at those dollars can determine a wage. In the end you can't get blood from a stone. And if your solution is to work for ... $9.5... no $9 no 8.5, no $7 no $5 ... $4 $3 $2 $1 to Someone will work for food because it better then working for $.50 to working for food everyother day to undercut the person working for food every day... to lowering the age of employment to 7 years of age..... LOL.... ITs been done before and Capitalism failed lif the wages of the Employee by relying on the invisible hand of the market or the generosity of capitalism. However, there is this alternative... which won't work if you have your way and eliminate the Unions right to collective bargaining... Collective bargaining Sweden is an example of a developed nation where there is no minimum wage that is required by legislation. Instead, minimum wage standards in different sectors are set by collective bargaining. Here is a bit on the history in Canada on the minimum wage..

Then you miss something... They must show up to work when under contract. Not showing up or "Striking" will result in pink slip while under contract if that is the companies intention. However, one aspect that companies like to use against long term employees in a Union is to get them to walk out. When in a position to get long term employees and replace them with scabs... you don't have to pay severance... As opposed to saying... look Timmy, you've worked here 22 years and done alot for us, but its time to go, your legs aren't good anymore, you move a slow footed and young Tommy is ready to do your job. We are going to pay you termination and severance and see you later, good luck on your future endeavours...

Bolded Comment first... OF course they are.. Unions from the 1800s forward were designed to get them closer to the playing field of the capitalists who were sticking it to the worker. That is hardly a surprise and there is no reason for that to change. As for the SCAB... Give your head a shake. The scab is often paid more then the Union Employee he/she is replacing. Many times they are put up in hotels, but if not, they are givin breakfast, Bus Rides, Lunches, and Rides Back. Private Security provides the escort and the Police normally take the security firm at their word. I have some choice videos, but as they are before the court system.... well see if they ever make the evening news, but some of the shit that goes on is priceless and it ain't the strikers. Quite Frankly if you knew what went on on a picket line... a spit in the face, often results in the police showing up at the offenders door at 2am in the morning and giving them a finger print session and a booking. A shove is definitely cause for arrest, and happens immediately, including belly bumps. Often the disputes are started by the private security whos purpose is to agitate and video tape. Think of Hockey and the retalation penalties. Shit happens and courts are not designed for justice anymore then a ref hands out justice. They don't. Its just doing a job, sometimes onesides, sometimes not. Insults or glares shouted at a bus with tinted windows and video taped from the inside are sent to the police station. Those people are then rounded up and charged with mischief although the police start off by explaining threats... etc. Do I know the history of the Scab... yes. Some are skilled or semi skilled and sometimes formerly union presidents from other union shops long closed. They are people who need to feed their families and are trying to supplement their immediate needs. Many hope it turns into a full time position...sometimes it can ...... sometimes not. Some Fulltime Scabs are like travelling Carnival workers, going from place to place with the security firms. THeir purpose is to do the labour and be flexible and well trained. Many laugh at the suckers outside as they are bussed into their new found job. They know their purpose is to bust the Union, and once that is done, they do not stay with the company, they continue to work with the Security firms of which there are many. Do I know what a SCAB is.... To Quote Jack London.... I have no use for a SCAB

The Middle, Lower and Upper Class combined, might be. Again... alot has to do with what used to be the Defasco effect, or the Toyota effect. Essentially similar wages and benefits, and HR policy. Thus the blanket of Unionism covers a broad spectrum. Just as the Union Wage declines, so do the Non Union Wage. Absolutely correct about Many Union Jobs not high paying. Often Minimum wage jobs are as little as 75c/hour higher in a Union Shop. Ofcourse without the Union, they'd be minimum wage jobs... LOL. The wages of today for most sectors would not be as high today without that burst after WW2 when the veterans came back and demanded and expected more. And they got it. Similarly Public Sector Pay and benefits would still be the low wages of the past without obtaining the right to unionize. Regardless. In the Private Sector, unions do not have the Power to fight head to head with Global Capital and the 3rd world market. Nor can a Union get anywheres close to equal footing of global cartels. Many of the corporate practices create a greater imbalance in society then a Union. Some people think that there is some kind of "Union Power" out there that appears to take on battles. My experience has been to see small groups of 20 to 300 people in smaller shops trying to maintain their working conditions against the demands of Global Capitalists. This happens in a shop by shop basis and their is no sign of "Solidarity" among the same union let alone other Unions. Either the people working in the facility want to take the risk of a strike, (Rarely Occurs), or they reach an agreement. Those going on strike are on their own. They can only count on one another and no one else. No white knight or help arrives. You dig yourself in and you get strike pay. Hopefully the company is still interested in Negotiations or you might have walked yourself for years. Being on strike, days, weekends, nights evenings and holidays is no picnic. Strikes are going longer, a year is getting to be the norm, and often they start to fizzle out and the employees lose their jobs completely. This are reasons. The company is screwed and you can't get blood from a stone. It could be an orchestrated move to get you out the door. Or the company has a great war chest and a goal in mind. The... Because we can... I tend to find that when the company goes after the general labour and forces holidays cut backs, such as cutting back the number of weeks, say 4 weeks in 20 years back to 3 weeks or 6 weeks in 20 years back to 4 weeks, it isn't long afterwards that they do the same to the Salaried Management Staff, and claw the no of vacation weeks back. Then they normally change the management staffs pension plan, tell them its better and the upper management retain their DB plan...LOL. Today, many of the companies I have associations with are doing a rollover. They are hiring new people (Plenty of skilled to pick from) and rolling out their longer service employees with a little higher wages and holidays. Many of these places have no benefits, and as there are no Unions, you normally don't last 12 to 26 years without pulling your weight. Turnover is very high at these places, so the guys that made it this long, look pretty damned shocked to see themselves walked out the door. Now, they can be replaced, and the new person has less holidays and similar skills, years of experience and backgrounds, and work through the temp agencies on the promise they will be hired. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... suckers. They even do this with their own HR Staff... LOL. Regardless, electrician rates are dropping down to $17.... and someone will take it and they can get rid of their $24 to $27 electrician. Quite frankly, there isn't a field out there that couldn't be forced into taking less money. Especially in the business community and financial sectors. But luckily many people are not forced into this. Can unions stop this... Not necessarily, but they can bargain the best scenario if the company is serious about survival. But if the companies intent is to Union bust... the Union is likely to fall. They have little leverage.

All the apologists aside, I haven't seen anyone say. Yeah, these things are great, lets keep funding it. The best argument people seem to come up with is "The other parties are doing it". It is very hard to support this sort of spending. Infact, I can't support it at all, and I want all parties to stop. But who's listening. Last I checked, there was no Candidate named Moonbox on the ballot

But I think Capricorn is correct. That the feeling of Canadians is piss on the election and get back to work.

Agreed.

:angry:

I know the Canadian Productivity figures will improve upon your retirement.

You moved the argument to political parties and away from Unions. However from those whom you wish to not legally recognise....

You are trying to argue both sides of the coin........ Canadian workers were often obliged to contend with horrendous conditions—long hours, few holidays and minimal rights in the marketplace. In an era when the ‘captains of industry’ ruled the economy, quitting a job could be construed as a criminal offence for a worker, punishable by imprisonment under the Master and Servant Act. Workers' ability to form unions and take collective action was severely constrained by the law--unions were seen as unlawful associations. Although local unions existed, it was illegal to form unions. On May 15, 1872, by defying the existing law and employers’ will, a group of workers in Hamilton, Ontario launched the Nine-Hour Movement to regulate working hours. For the first time, Canadian labour organized a unified protest movement, behind which workers from all over Ontario and Quebec actively rallied. Although this and other protests failed to secure a nine-hour day for all, the movement did mark a turning point for labour in Canada. In response to this movement and public pressure, Prime Minister John A. Macdonald introduced a bill in Parliament to make trade unions legal—Parliament passed the Trade Unions Act on June 14, 1872. Macdonald declared that he was the “working man’s friend”. The CLU platform called for shorter working hours, and vigorously opposed the use of convict labour and employment of children under the age of 10 years. Such labour activism tended to attract skilled, relatively well-paid workers; the vast majority of unskilled workers in the economy remained powerless in the market place.

I knew you were going there... LOL.... Go to post #1 While I do follow your information on BC Provincial Taxation, and you have lots of other Provincial Taxes that we do not have here in Ontario. BC has not Harmonized the Tax and quite frankly when you suggest that RENT is NOT Taxed with the PST, you can be rest assured that RENT will be taxed with BOTH PST and GST under the HST. Last statement I read on Rent and Condo fees in Ontario was that the HST would apply to both. That is a HUGE money grab. When you talk about an income of $16,000 or less receiving up to $385. you assume that only close to $8000 of that income will be spent. What you are suggesting is that they are paying GST on More then Half their income, because I would think in BC it would be unlikely to attain much in savings after general living expenses. Considering that one could assume that RENT would eat up the other half of that income, this will now (In Ontario) be subject to the HST, and according to Riverwind, all consumption and services should pay.

He always does explain his position clearly.

Then we pay more... Hurray....More burden on lower middle income families...

People who are poor often do not receive rebates. Yes there are people who are poor who do receive rebates. Not all poor people receive rebates. Regardless, the rebates do not cover the costs of paying GST. And yes, middle income people often do not receive a rebate. Nor will their income tax cut cover the increased HST. Its not revenue neutral... they will be paying more. You are winning the hearts and minds of hairstylists and mothers everywhere. Perhaps your right....the kids can do without a haircut every 4 weeks and go for six weeks or 8 weeks. From your discussion, you wish to put the HST on every grocery product as well. hmmm, better talk to Mr. Canada on some of that... .... ok..... ouch... bad thread drift... The question is, why shift the burden onto younger families? And why should Conrad Black and his pals get more money and the young family pay more money? We had a debate 92 years ago LOL.....The concept of taxing income is a modern innovation and presupposes several things: a money economy, reasonably accurate accounts, a common understanding of receipts, expenses and profits, and an orderly society with reliable records. For most of the history of civilization, these preconditions did not exist, and taxes were based on other factors. The Birth of Income Tax (1917) On that day, the 50-year old finance minister tabled a resolution which called for income tax: 4% on all income of single men over $2,000. For others, the personal exemption was $3,000. For those Canadians with annual incomes of more than $6,000, the tax rate ranged from 2 to 25 per cent. Its is important to reduce the burden upon those with the greatest ability to pay? This isn't about the USE of government services, this is about the taxing of private services and consumer goods. The government is to use our tax monies to provide services. Many of these services benefit the Wealthy in a disproportionate measure. That not a bad thing.... Canals, Highways and Railways lead to greater prosperity. A Big Income Tax Break for John Deere is great, because they can use that NEW found capital to invest in Mexico. Then those out of work people earning EI income, or in new occupations earning significantly less pay less in Taxes as well. GOOD EH... so to boost up this loss of Income Tax, we tax those same people on the bottom end to recoup what has been lost. Unfortuneately their purchasing power has diminished as well, and this extra tax isn't givign them a whole lot to cheer about. YEAH!!! more tax 8% extra on each visit to the pump, hurray!!! Income taxes have not proven to be disfunctional...

Considering he said he would return to his professors job in the US if he lost.... I will take him at his word.

Now this looks like fun.... after a week or a month.... or whenever I get around to it.... we will have the winner of Group A (Best of the Decades Past Leadership Hopefulls) Face off against the most Recent Group B leadership Hopefuls. Obviously Elizabeth May is still a Leader of a political party....but, I wanted to add some Silly fun to the poll. I would have had Stockwell Day.... as opposed to Manning, but the DAY MAY thing was too much for me, and I consider Manning and Broadbent to be two of the larger Heavyweight leaders of their eras. So... make your picks for the best non elected Prime Minister of the past to face off against the most recent Non Elected candidates for Prime Minister of the present... in the next round.

Only people with no knowledge of make that claim. Paying the GST costs people far more then what they receive in Government rebates, if they receive those rebates at all, and many times they don't. It definitely worse for lower income households and particularly fixed income households. The reason that many items of necessity were not taxed SUCH AS MILK, Shoes... etc.. is because of the undue hardship and burdens upon families. The very fact that it costs lower income households more and they are least able to afford these purchases. Its why McGuinty heard the Shit fit and backed down on taxing diapers. It is rational..... It is irrational to suggest that every consumer item should be taxed. Personally, I am against the tax applied when resell car. If the car is sold 10 times, the government gets 10Xs its value in taxes, compared to a vehicle sold once. This is purely a tax grab. Now the Conservatives are in on the game. Just another tax scam, and the government wants more money.... and the general public is going to foot the bill. Its just about WHO pays and WHO doesn't. And punative income taxes just happen to be progressive and HST just happens to be a double bag of regressive taxes. Besides, the government is cutting back on services so why should those at the bottom pay more? If the wealthier are getting more of a free ride, and getting more money back, and the object is to be revenue nuetral, then it is clear that the middle, and lowermiddle class are going to pay more.

Thanks..... I did get a kick out of Michael Hardeners Reply.... "So, the tax rate should be voluntary ?"

The Liberals have had it both ways for nearly 3 years. But more importantly, the Liberals are motivated by polling data and polling data only. You choose to argue the "Both ways" angle when responding to my posts. But a Liberal always sees things both ways. Seriously... the Issue was EI and the Liberals could have continued to support the Bill before the house, which contains everything they currently are pretending to champion. There isn't anything different. The government would not have "Fallen" over supporting the private members bill. So your argument is weak. Rather then support the Bill the Liberals were supporting, they joined the Conservatives in concluding parliment. But WHY.. WHY ON EARTH.. Would Ignatieff be so stupid, to step out of the box, then challenge Harper ALONE, on the very same issues that were before the house. Essentially the Liberals walked away from the Bill, and started talking some hot air, and Harper Gunned them down. It was an ugly mess and Harper Schooled Ignatieff in the staredown. Meanwhile the polls remain stagnant, however, one benefit is that when Ignatieff mouth stops moving the Liberal polling numbers go up a little. Its almost like the winner will be the leader who talks the least....

Its important to reduce the burden upon those with the ability to pay, and shift the burden upon those who have to pay out of necessity. Its great that Haircuts, Hortons, shoes and food, will be taxed so that someone making over $100,000 gets that tax break. They have it tough. Its very important to Harmonize a tax, but for each party involved to extend the catchment area. This is good, so rather then having just PST on the Internet, we pay GST too. Yes, both governments with their hands in my pocket. But while I do make very good money, many people don't. Hey, its just a tax scheme..... its not new or original, and it is being sold by economic dickheads who want to support the Global economy over a local economy. The same economic fools who believe in the Carbon Tax. Oh, and its revenue neutral too...