madmax

The CPC, CPC supporters and the rightwing media do a fine job of attacking the NDP. That is normal in politics. There are CPC swing votes in the NDP, just as there are LPC swing votes in the NDP, just as there are CPC swing votes in the LPC and LPC swing votes in the CPC. IIRC there is a right wing poster on MLW with an attack on Jack Layton in his signature. There is a myth that the NDP are LPCs in a hurray. Is it not the BC Liberals that were resurrected as a coalition to keep out the NDP? Did not the Sask party grow out of the ambers of the disgraced PCs and essentially join with LPC supporters to take on the NDP? The LPC are no different then the CPC or the NDP when it comes to expending energy on their rivals. What political parties try to do is get it so that the other parties leave them alone.

The CPC have been excellent at telling that Whopper and getting away with it. The LPC have voted 100% 79 times out of 79 with the Harper Government. The NDP have voted against the Harper Government. We see who is tied to whom. Politics is the art of manipulating the public into believing what you want them to beleive, not necessarily the truth.

NEWSFLASH!!! AUGUST 23rd..... http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1918505 New poll suggests Canadians are warming to minority rule53.9% Supportive; Election-ready Conservative MPs focused on majority

This went around, and now is quoted again in todays paper.

Harper’s Tories open big lead over Liberals, poll says http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=1922420 The Conservatives now command 39% in support among decided voters, compared with 28% for the Liberals, according to the survey, conducted exclusively for Canwest News Service and Global National by Ipsos Reid. Since the last Ipsos poll two months ago, the Tories have climbed five percentage points, while the Grits have slumped seven points. The NDP stand in third at 14% of the vote, up one point; followed by the Green party at 10%, up two points. The Bloc Quebecois posted 8% in support nationally, while 7% of respondents were undecided. The poll comes amid speculation that the government

I told you... I don't talk Manitoba.. I reserve that for you Then maybe he will be the next Federal Leader. Does he speak Frenc?Considering that the PCs could go to 2 seats from a Majority in 1993, and the NDP reduced to 8 or something, suggests that no party is safe. However Liberals are often arrogant, forgetful and few remember 40 in 84. Erm. Ed left at the height of NDP acceptance, in seats, votes and popularity of its leader vs the leaders of the other party in 1988."When he stepped down after 15 years as federal leader of the NDP in 1989". The vote and seat count didn't go "the other way" until mid 1993 during a period of two unpopular NDP Premiers and a rookie Federal Leader. Again, that is how Liberals think, I don't believe there is a New Democrat out there who thinks his/her seat is safe. Tommy Douglas, David Lewis, are among those who lost seats. John Tory proved Provincially that a "Safe PC seat" with 60% majority in a riding that had never seen red, since its creation, could be lost. The LPC are a terrible opposition party. They even let the CPC pull the plug on them, while voting with the CPC 100%. Fact is, with the LPC being the lapdogs of the CPC, I already saw one unnecessary election in 08. Hint... the NDP platform doesn't change And I have no use for those experts. Small business is driving the damned economy, and small business has been carrying the load in job creation. Manitoba is the best set Province during this downturn. Maybe they are just doing it right after all.... but then... I say again. I don't understand Manitoba, which is why I rely on you to inform me.

Not if its a Topaz...

We are a Capitalist society. Corporate Welfare Bums have existed as long as their has been "Capitalist" at the trough. From wiki... David Lewis... He led the NDP through the 1972 federal election in which he uttered his best known quotation calling Canadian corporations "corporate welfare bums".[99]

I bet he is a Republican too.

I don't, but I highly doubt That NDPers believe in the permance of any seats or votes. That view of permanance is often the turf for Liberal arrogance. CCF/NDP seats are never secure. All he has to do is avoid a collapse. There are few people willing to take the heapings of abuse often tossed at NDP leaders. The only fact is, through all the complaining about Layton that I have seen over the past 5 years, he has continued to move the ball forward. If it goes back 10 yards it won't be a problem, if its in their own end zone, then even the NDP will get rid of a leader. Looking at the CCF, Coldwell took the CCF up to 28 seats, went back to 13 eventually got it back up to 25 and when the CCF got creamed and went back to 8 seats, a new leader and new party appeared. Even though the NDP vote total went down by only 15,000 nationwide, it cost them 17 seats. CCF/NDP seats are never secure. 1940 J.S. Woodsworth 8 seats 388,058 8.42% 1945 M.J. Coldwell 28 seats 815,720 15.55% 1949 M.J. Coldwell 13 seats 785,910 13.42% 1953 M.J. Coldwell 23 seats 636,310 11.28% 1957 M.J. Coldwell 25 seats 707,828 10.71% 1958 M.J. Coldwell 8 seats 692,668 9.49% They still are a terrible opposition party. If you have voted for the government 70 to 90 confidence votes in a row, you are not an opposition party, but a supporter of the government. We just came full circle.... LOL Just to clarify, the NDP had a policy conference, where they talked ... policy at their convention.

And the fact that the Conservatives are giving ONTARIO 4.3 Billion really means the CPC are totally against tax harmonization. They are not into taking the shit that comes with picking our pockets. The CPC will benefit by giving us Joes a royal bending over and finger check. They had blown the bank, and were going to force this wonderful prize on us whether we like it or not. The CPC spent and gave away money like it was growing on trees. And now the big corporate tax cuts have proven to do jack squat, the CPC need to get money from joe and jane consumer. If you want to implement this tax, pay the price. Here is a CPC tax twisting pin head. Bill Murdoch is just as popular in the region and is pulling no punches. Conservative MPs may remain in the background, but those that come out and throw it against the fan, are going to get the blowback. Here is the link to the Conservative Sun Paper.. and the only thing in keeping with its bias is an attack on the Ontario Liberals in the headline. http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editoria...569856-sun.html

and Jack Layton is compared to the Computer guy.....Yes, the name was lost on me...... FYI I did post his political view on MLW last year. That'd be another poll....

If they proposed it... would the NDP then be in the mainstream of public opinion?Canadians favour nationalizing gas resources, companies: poll MONTREAL (CP) - Almost half of Canadians wanted to see petroleum resources and oil companies nationalized as fuel prices hit record levels, a new poll suggests. In the Leger poll, which was provided to The Canadian Press, 49 per cent of respondents wanted petroleum resources nationalized while 43 per cent said they would like to see the same fate for oil companies. Quebecers were the strongest supporters of resource nationalization at 67 per cent, followed by residents of the Atlantic provinces at 53 per cent, Ontarians at 45 per cent and British Columbia at 42 per cent. Forty per cent of respondents on the Prairies and 36 per cent of Albertans were in favour. Among those opposed, Albertans led the way at 49 per cent followed by British Columbians at 39 per cent Quebec led in support for nationalization of oil companies, with 61 per cent in favour, followed by the Atlantic provinces (46 per cent). Alberta was most opposed at 59 per cent, followed by the Prairies (49 per cent), B.C. 46 per cent and Ontario, 41 per cent. Most of the respondents - 79 per cent - suggested they would like to see taxes on gasoline cut, although federal and provincial governments have made it clear that is unlikely. Meanwhile here is a link to some nice little graphs regarding Bolivias Nationalizing of Gas...http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/blog/archives/000250.htm

To clarify.. Federal NDP convention, Federal NDP party, Federal NDP Seat Although I see the ball has moved around on some provincial stuff throughout this thread. No, I think if anyone bet me a $million that the NDP would win a seat in Alberta and I would have taken it and become a pauper on election night. A clean CPC sweep is what was expected. And everyone says the NDP are dead and this happens. Obviously some hard work went into play. As for replacing the Liberals permanently as the 2nd place party..... I'll I can note is that ... The NDP replaced the LPC as the 2nd place party in popular vote in BC Alb Sask Man NS IIRC. That doesn't always add up to seats, as the LPC had less votes in Sask but the NDP were shut out. However, there is a tendency to ignore that the NDP took a seat in Alberta but not ignore that the LPC have ONE seat in Sask. Essentially, anything can happen in an election campaign. And between campaigns people speculate. The NDP did do well in the 2008 campaign, all things considered. The NDP convention has obviously got people talking. What all this leads up to is anyones guess.

They have not received that trust federally. If the NDP join the Liberals, then you have no NDP and you have a Liberal Party. Meanwhile those swing NDP/CPC voters many of whom left the NDP to support Reform provide the fiscal right wing of the NDP would go back CPC or some Libertarian party. Perhaps when one realized that from about 1993 during the Chretian reign, many many many NDP voters moved to the Liberals on the campaign of the Little red Book. End to Free Trade, End to GST, Implementation of Child Care. And after 13 years, it was very clear that the Reform policies were having a greater effect on Liberal thinking and thus the Centre Right of the LPC moved with the Reform party to drive fiscal policy while backpeddling on all issues of social advancement, even a decade after balancing the books. The people who pay taxes would have to wait to receive services. The clear case of life for the NDP within the LPC was clearly demonstrated by Ignatieff. He dumped the socialists and joined with the CPC. A budget that attacked 40 years of womens fight for equality, pay and work, where not important. The only benefit that would occur if the NDP joined the Liberals, is that the LPC wouldn't have to listen to the NDP any longer and the NDP policies would be silenced for good. That polices such as EI reform could continue to be diluted under Liberal Governments as they had done while have the support of many NDP swing voters. The NDP are at one of their highest points in their history. And with the LPC turning their backs on the NDP after a very very very brief one night stand.... I don't see this happening ever.

Just to clarify.... Jack Layton moved the party from 13 seats, to 19 seats to 29 seats to 37 Seats and from Alexa McDonough 13 Seats 1,093,748 8.51% To this... Jack Layton 37 Seats 2,517,075 18.13% since taking over 6 years ago. The NDP would do no better with any other leader and would not likely be above 2.5 Million votes without Jack Layton taking over a party that has slide to single digits, had a very moderate approach to everything and was completely ignored by the media and public prior to his assension. There is no doubt that Jack Layton is made for Television and he performs on Television better then any other leader. However, prior to becoming NDP leader Layton would have had to cut his teeth somewhere, and I highly doubt it was in media, but within social action. Its rare for someone to come out of nowhere and knock off a highly popular Liberal Cabinet Minister who had just brought AC/DC the Stones, and tonnes of other good bands into Toronto. Moreover, the Style of Layton has little effect on serving MPs like Stoffer or Godin out on the east coast other then having a larger caucus each time they come back from an election. As for Cliched one liners..... 1) Dion campaigned on a very indepth Carbon Tax and bombed 2) Harper campaign on nothing.... yes, they called an election and really had no campaign. 3) The NDP had a strong campaign and platform, and we know, cliches work. However, of the television commercials from last year.... The NDPs were the best. They were bright, funny, light hearted and in todays multi media environment, largely unseen by those who don't watch Canadian Television. The CPC commercials essentially continued to reinforce Dion was a boob, and a strong fear campaign against the LPC platform The Liberal Commercials were a sorry state of affairs. Ironically a sign of things to come, when Dion spoke on Television a month after the election. Regardless, the NDP is not one to toss out leaders because of a pack of wolves calls for it. Other parties do this, and often undermine their leaders at every chance. IIRC ... the blood was out for Harper to step down, many comments here on MLW coming from well known CPC supporters who were very unhappy with the hole he dug right after the election. While Harper managed to put the shovel down, their is little doubt that the CPC aren't still a few feet short of level ground. Obviously all the leaders have flaws and their parties will have to mask over these image problems. Harper is his own worst enemy. Ignatieff treats human life as if it were an afterthought and Jack Layton is compared to the Computer guy..... Sales is a great field to be in. Many people don't like sales. Sales shouldn't be mocked. It is part of our economy, and a large parti of it. The NDP will keep Jack Layton as long as he can do his job, and the arm chair critics will be shunted aside until that day comes with real numbers after an election that show that Layton has worked past his best before date.

The NDP lost the Unions around 1993 to 1995, and many never came back. While there are still unions who support the NDP, I think it is no surprise that in a Province Like Ontario, the Liberals received more in Union donations then the NDP. Unions like any other group that candidates meet with and federal leaders meet with, engage with all parties. They are just not as influential as the registered lobbyiests that gnaw the ears of the CPC and LPC MPs. Regardless, the NDP was in single digits in 1993. The NDP is in their traditional range of 15% to 18%. Then NDP is popular in rural ridings, sweeping many Northern regions. The NDP just received the most seats in Ontario in its history, and that is with the Stench of the Bob Rae Government still resonating with voters. Thus the NDP received more seats in Ontario then ED Broadbent did, around 6 more, and Ed Ran during a period of strong unions and when those unions did support the NDP. That support was lost when Ed Stepped down and Audrey stepped up. A candidate running for the NDP do so because he/she supports the brand, not because of the popularity of the brand. IT is often an uphill battle in a stream with the wind against you. Those candidates take alot of flak from people, yet keep putting their feet forward. IT is no suprise that the NDP caucus is considered to be the most efficient and well prepared in the house. It is the purpose of the leader to expand the party to receive as many seats as possible. This is true of all parties. Considering the background behind the NDP, getting 37 seats, and winning in Alberta, Quebeca and Newfoundland is no small feat for such a party. The NDP is the only elected alternative in Alberta. The NDP will never lose a battle for its existance. It will go up and it will go down, but there is 70 years of data behind the NDP to suggest that they will always be around and always have strong candidates that will get elected, and strong candidates that will need to run 3 or 4 or more times to get in if ever. It is the nature of the party and politics. The NDP is not a fad, nor does it ride high in brand name, and I don't know when it ever has. Yet as much as people complain, criticise and rip this party to shreds. There has been a trend of recent. 13 seats, 19 seats, 29 seats, 37 seats. And the question is ... is there more in the tank, or will it adjust to another figure within the margin of their polling figures. A small % here or there shifts NDP seats as many seats won are often squeakers. Safe NDP seats do not exist, they have to work in the trenches each and every time. The bottom line is.... Ed Broadbent became extremely popular, and yet still achieved on 44 seats. Jack Layton... is almost there, and has not been in office as long as Ed Broadbent. The public elects their candidates and regardless of the negative hype, many times an NDP candidate is chosen, for reasons that go beyond the popularity ratings of the leader. As long as some 1300 to 1500 delegates show up and vote on resolutions for the party , then democracy is being upheld and that is all that can be asked of such conventions. Getting parties elected is a whole different ballgame.

Riverwind makes strong arguments in tax policy. I still disagree with him because I can . However, from a government point of view, all governments look for ways to pick our pockets, be it GST, PST, HST, CST, or Individual USER fees, the end of the day the government needs our money. Thus TAX and SPEND or TAX and GIVEAWAY may be the only differences in choice that a government makes. However, few governments have successfully campaigned on a Tax Increase. Dion Failed with the Carbon Tax The 1993 PCs were eliminated because of the GST among other things Grant Devine was creamed with his support for the HST... remember he needed ALOT of money.... The NS Liberals were tossed in a heap with their implementation of the HST. However... the Campbell Liberals Prevailed in Campaigning on the Carbon Tax... Yet wouldn't dare mention HST during the recent election campaign. McGuinty Liberals campaigned and won on the Health Care Tax, people supported it. Yet I don't believe the Harper Conservatives could gain any ground in publicly pressing forward the HST or taking credit for it. Sure they are behind the push, yet they will not go front and centre with it. The only thing hypocritical about this is the CPC bashing the Provinces who are considering implementing it. If the Conservatives Don't believe in the HST, they shouldn't be tossing money to the PRovinces to implement it.

And he believes passing on the bribe will work.

The GST was to fix all deficits, and provide healthier balance sheets. Of course it would, it was another tax that was broad and all encompassing. However, as governments are prone to do. They give back monies in the form of corporate welfare, and the balances sheets go for shiite. The HST is an opportunity for both the Federal Government and Provincial Government to increase their revenues.

Funny you say that. I am directing many people towards that Province. Doer has done many things that McGuinty has chosen not to do and the economy and labour market is feeling the pain of his incompetence.

I'll leave that to you... LOL besides, I think I said I would back Moonbox...

The gist I get is that the media made a mountain out of a molehill. There was no wave to change the name of the NDP, and I certainly was unaware until the media spoke on it. I'm sure there were alot of resolutions at a convention, and the media picked one. On other forums, as I backtrack this, many covered some of the events or commented on them live. Obviously on Friday, there couldn't have been alot of jelly behind the resolution because the delegates choose the order of the resolutions. If it was important... LIKE EI.... it would have went to the front. In other words, if the delegates felt that rebranding, was the major thing the NDP needed to do, it likely would have happened. But it wasn't there, and the media, clearly should have picked up on this. However, all their hype would have been lost, because Policy on real issues is boring, and yes, from a media standpoint, changing the Name of the NDP is a story that can sell newspapers. If the resolution had the force behind it, like when the CCF changed the name to the NDP, or Reform changed it to Canadian Alliance then Crap, then Conservative, the resolution would have been front and centre, and if it was and the clock was ran out, sure you might have a point. But there is no report of 100s of delegates out of the 1300 or so there, believing that this issue had legs or was a priority. It just seemed like a story that the media wanted, and knew full well it was going nowhere. I was told on other forums there were great speeches by Doer, Broadbent . Also some Americans from the Obama campaign spoke, but I don't see alot of media coverage on them. The Name thing was media driven, and in every resolution convention, there is ONE resolution that the media jumps on. Perhaps that is why there were no resolutions at the LPC convention and NO media coverage. You just might be right... NDP did it on purpose....

If I had to choose, I have seen the NDP in forms presented in the House of Commons and in the recent resolutions at their Policy Convention. I have seen the CPC follow the bureacracy and increase EI 5 weeks, and add in Seti and Eti, but come up short on many fronts. The Liberals had a convention, they have no Policy on EI. The Liberals sat in the house throughout 2008 and 2009 in the midst of the worst recession ever, and some of the HIGHEST Unemployment figures seen EVER SEEN in a single month nearly 140000 jobs lost in a single month, and the Liberals themselves did nothing. No Liberal Motions, No Liberal Private Members Bills nothing. For many people the situation and cuts that the Liberals made to EI has put their families, homes and livelyhood in jeapardy because they are no longer eligible. The Liberals have SAT on their hands during this unemployment disasterl. And when something could be done, immediately and was there to be done. They choose to hit the BBQ circuit in order to campaign for a fall election. Before you ask what Policy I favour, I favour that the LPC should have been able to answer that question 8 months ago themselves. Therefore while I see many pundits taking pot shots at the NDP ... three things can be said. 1) They held an Policy Convention 2) Policies were debated 3) They have a policy on EI to which I can agree with or not. The Liberal Convention answer to these three points are 1) No policy convention 2) no Policy debated 3 no Policy on EI to which I can agree with or not you can see my frustration.... and why I do not trust the Liberals on such a serious topic during such a period of high unemployment.

This is the first time I have heard of coverage of an NDP convention since Ed Broadbent announced his retirement.