Accountability Now

Lol. Hockey solves all! Ok...so move on from here without religion? I guess its possible but I i still have my doubts. Religion is already slowly being pushed out of our society and replaced with technology and science and we have seen the result. We are definitely a smarter society but are we better off? Seriously...compare our role models of the 50s to the ones today. I remember reading a story once about the differences in prime time TV line ups in the 50s versus today...it was something like, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best and some other family related show VERSUS American Idol, and the Kardashians. Is that what happens without religion? Furthermore, we have communications devices and technology coming out of our butts yet people are more isolated and depressed than ever. I'm hoping its like a pendulum where it goes to far the one way and then makes it way back to where it should be. At this rate...I am honestly fearful for my kids. I guess I'll throw it back to you. If you remove religion then what one thing connects you to this earth?

I don't know that either. I'm certainly not a religious scholar. If what you are saying is true then that makes the story even more conclusive for me. Imagine you have a car accident and you have four different people tell their version. How accurate will all the stories be compared to the truth? However, you have many different people telling you the same story, years after it happend and its almost entirely the same.

I think you're forgetting one thing. Most people are not doing these acts because they fear god (anymore...although i can see how that was the case before), rather they do it because they see what good can come from it. I don't go to church that often any more but I can ensure you that there is zero fear pushed on me. As for the ability to do these acts without the fairy tale....yes we can but you have to ask yourself....how did we get to the point where that would be possible? Our societies and moral compasses have been defined by religion and it is now engrained into our society. Look at our national anthem for example....God keep our land. I see what you are saying but its like asking if a kid that just went through school and is now working even needed to go to school. Couldn't we have just trained him on that specific task instead of spending years in school? You can't discount what has got us here as a society. Perhaps if religion hadn't existed we would be in the same spot....or even better but I truly don't believe that. Humans do good things when they realize they are connected at a higher level than just themselves. Religion for lack of a better term can provide that. I like you're analogy as you are essentially looking at the plus/minus of the situation. However, I don't equate religion to Phil Kessell who according to your analogy is only plus 5. I would equate religion to a Jonathon Toews who will sometimes (but rarely) get scored on however will provide a huge benefit on the scoreboard, in the dressing room, in the community and as a leader. Now...try to find something to replace Toews. Again...its the butterfly effect. Remove religion from the start and where would we be?

There are scandals in every part of human activity and churches are no exception. There are scandals in government, schools, police forces, banking, business...you name it! However, no one ever says lets get rid of the police when they hear of police abuse. Or lets get rid of schools when they hear of sexual abuse in the classroom. I am fully aware of the immoral actions that have occurred largely due to the power possessed individuals and that it was wrong however what about the vast number of priests, pastors, preachers, missionaries and other people associated to religous groups that have worked countless hours and donated time, money and possessions to helping others in the name of religion. I would wager that if you added one against the other....it wouldn't be close. Of course...there is no media story in someone doing good though...is there? I do but not literally as in God touched down and burned the text onto stone or paper. The writters of the gospels were average men who transcribed what they saw. The fact that you have so many different people saying the same thing to me is what I find compelling. There was something truly inspiring happening and these people took note of it.

I think the vast majority of humans are folllowers...not leaders. They need something to follow which in this case is a superior being that supercedes time and people itself. Let's face it....if we left it up to humans to lead humans then we would be back to the church scandals and corrupt governments because again if humans are involved then there will be errors. Having 'something' that is above and beyond them makes it easier and probably better. I do support the idea of spreading a postive human message but ultimately I will admit that I think there is something greater than us out there. I just don't see the need to go hell bent on proving my version or interpretation of it is any better than anyone elses. Ultimately I view religion like language. We all make speak different languages but at the end of the day it means the same thing.

However people living at the times of Greek or Norse mythology did not believe it was a quaint book of legends, written by man. They believed that the gods touched down and gave it to them just as much as the Christians or anyother fanatics believe. However, after time it was exposed that just wasn't the case. I think the same thing is starting to happen with modern religion in that the fanatiscm is starting to wear as people are starting to realize flaws and some of the potential hype that once was. However, the bible has one thing that makes it hard to dispute....historical relevance. Moses, Jesus, David etc...they were all real people that walked this earth. History has no problem in proving they existed. Whether they did the things that are written can be questioned but the fact they walked this earth cannot. With all this being said, if Greek/Norse mythologies have the ability to teach a lesson and provide some sort of moral compass the same way the bible does then I would suggest you follow it too. Its all about the message and not the details. You are correct. The proof of a god inspired intervention is not available. And yes we do teach critical thinking is important. So in today's modern day of knowledge and critical thinking then why do you explain that the overwheming majority of people still believe in a higher power in spite of our critical thinking? Jesus walked the earth nearly 2000 years ago and yet people are still worshiping him even in a time of critical thinking. Buddism, Hinduism, Confucism all started around the same time and are still going strong. The numbers may be decreasing but I don't believe atheism is making major leaps and bounds. People still believe in some sort of universal creator or spirit. I think that most people are doing critical thinking when it comes to religion and most are realizing that you don't need the fanatiscm to make it work. In other words, they realize that you don't have to get caught up in the details which tend to send some people running in the other direction. If humans are involved then its bound to be full of error and critical thinkers are starting to realize that. However, the underlying principles of religion still remain in tact. Earlier I posted a picture of The Golden Rule which is commonly expressed by all religions. I can accept any critism or disbelief about religion but when all show this same common thread, then there must be something to it.

I think you hit the nail right on the head with this. I have to go to a communal mail box to gather our mail and I honestly do it once or twice a week. The mail at my company gets added to a pile which also gets checked once a week. Perhaps larger businesses need more frequency but the reality is that residential services could easily go to 2-3 day per week service and not miss a beat.

I'm not a believer in any one religion. I think its funny to see all the different religions out there bickering when they are really preaching the same thing. A few years back I saw this picture and I thought it summed it all up.

I agree with you that most churches tell the story that it is literal however dre certainly gets hung up on the literal comments like 'all the human race dying' as suggested by the Noah story. As such I disagree with you in that dre is not taking these stories into context. He choses to downplay the reason why God acted as so which is not the same as taking something into context. There is two ways to look at these stories...either as real or fiction. If real, people have to understand that there are issues with the translation and knoweldge base at that time. For example, people in that day didn't know the earth was round...so they wrote about the dome that covered the earth. Do we still believe that to be true? No...we've evolved into more knowledgeable humans. IMO, you need to put yourself in there shoes with their knowledge base at the time to see what they saw. We can then see how some of these irrational, literal statements (as we view them today) came about. It will then allow you to focus on the important parts. If the stories are fiction, then take the moral of the story and make it work. Or just leave it! Don't get so caught up that you direct your life in the opposite direction because of it. I grew up in the catholic system but none of this stuff was ever forced down my throat...which made me lucky. I was always taught to take these stories with a grain of salt but I never felt I should discard them. It wasn't until I got to university and took a class called 'science versus religion' that I became aware of the brainwashing that a lot of religions have on their people. I certainly do not agree with the brainwashing any more than I agree with people who totally discard religion altogether just because everything doesn't make sense to them. Don't get me wrong...everyone is entitled to their opinion but I just don't agree with them.

No kidding! The ironic thing is that we see it in Christian religions for what I think is this reason but why do we see it in other religions like Islam where women are second rate citizens?

Free will is free will regardless of tempation. She made the choice. She didn't have a gun pointed to her head nor was she forced in any way to do it. She was tempted much like people today are tempted to do a lot of things that aren't good for them. It seems clear that 'all the biblical accounts' you have read come only from the Old Testament which all are lessons on why we should be God fearing. Respect the almighty powerful.....oooooohhhh. However, you either haven't read or convenienty missed out on the teaching of the New Testament where you see the benevolent side. All this being said, the one thing that you have to remember with the Bible is that it was written by the hand of man...and therefore is NOT perfect. (I get in trouble when I agrue this with fanatics but I believe it to be true). They continue to find scrolls that change how ancient writings and their meanings are translated. I think it was just over 100 years ago they found out two ancient Hebrew letters were being mixed up. So we have to believe that errors still exist in the Bible if one was only to take a literal translation. For example, you bring up Noah and how God killed the entire human race for a few people having anal sex. First....were you there to know it was just a few people having anal sex? Is that ALL it was? Seems the bible and perhaps history would suggest it was a bit more corrupt that that. Secondly....historians are starting to realize that context is very important when reading biblical text. When they say "all the people"....that means all the people in their land (at that time) which was between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. They didn't know about any other parts of the world so keep that in mind. It is also very possible that the Tigris and Euphrates could actually flood that area enough to wipe it out....but not the entire world. Its all about context but its clear that your disdain for religion is already biased based on your own experiences so I really should waste my time suggesting you take something and keep it in context.

You're funny Bubber. You actually believe that Chretien was the driving force behind the balanced budget? The surplus years for the Cretien governement happened in 1997-2003....which ironically coincide the US surplus years of 1998 to 2001 (with 1997 being a small deficit for the US). Perhaps a golden era for all? Harper had a suprlus budgets in his first two years (2006-2007) until 2008 which encountered the worst economic meltdown since the Depression. Do you think that global economics have anything to offer here? Or do you actually think that Chretien swtiched it up and became a right wing thinker to stimulate the North American ecomomy? I can't comment on your stance about increasing or decreasing government but I wouldn't say he's more right wing than Harper because of the budgets...thats for sure.

Yes...that certainly would be nice. I agree with you as I feel the media craze is absolutely BS in some cases (ie...the need to break the story first means who cares if the story is accurate!). I always think back to Sandy Hook for this example when they first accused Lanza's brother of doing the killing. Seriously...you couldn't wait a few hours to confirm this? I guess the only good thing about right wing and left wing media sources is that you will always have a source to check to see if the other one is spewing crap. A balance of crapiness....

Which is why Sun News media is around...trying to level the Canadian left wing media.

YES...I thought the same thing. I was halfway through watching the HBO documentary when I watched Zero Dark Thirty and I couldn't believe how well done that was.

I think it does matter. One is funded by a group of people that only get money if their viewers continue to watch and therefore agree with the agendas they are pushing. The other one continues to get our tax dollars no matter what. I agree...they both suppress it but I guess I'm a little more ok with the private guys doing it as its their money...they can do what they want with it.

Time Warner is a private corporation. CBC is crown corporation. Both are corporations but one is owned by people the other is owned by the government. I think that's a noteable difference.

Not sure if I would agree with tricked but certainly presented her the option. My understanding and I guess what I believe is the entire apple thing was a lesson on free will. God could have easily put forces in place to keep Eve from even going to the apple but allowed her to make the decision. If you were to ask me, that is what makes life great is that we get to choose which direction to go. How special would that be if God just forced everyone to do the right thing all the time? Its like when a parent makes a kid share their candy versus that kid offering it up on his own. I don't agree that everything we do is now sinful. I think the apple shows us that we have the ability to choose between right and wrong and that its not forced upon us either way.

I thought it was a good movie but like all Hollywood productions of a true story, it is up to us to figure out the exact story. There is another movie (Seal Team Six) that is on Youtube which is very similar but adds a few points, removes a few and slightly changes some. HBO had a documentary called Manhunt which seemed to be a little more authentic but of course one can never tell. I guess somewhere amongst all the documentaries is the truth.

According to the Old Testament, God intervened with humans from the start with Adam and Eve. Who knows when that was! Of course, there were other interventions such as Noah and Moses with the latter being the start of 'rules' to live by.(ie the 10 commandments). The website below says that Moses was around 1300 years before Jesus so that somewhat accounts for the 4k you ask about. Just as imporantly, other religions have been around for a long part of that too. I find the evolution of the various religions to be the most fasicnating as they all seem to stem from the same basic principles. http://www.avesta.org/timeline.htm Wow...it looks like catholic school did teach me something!

Exactly!

Nice first post AltaRick...however I think you should have consulted the forum rules before posting. Your comment regarding "Stevie" is a no-no. They actually use that exact example to illustrate what not to do. As for the content of your post....I'm not a Harper fan but I don't dislike the guy either. To me...they are all the same....Mulrooney, Chretien, Harper. They all make promises which can't be kept, they all spend money they don't have and they all have scandals on their watch. Its typically a matter of who is the lesser of the evils when judging these guys. I would assume that is what the 42% is looking at.

I'm not sure if you're responding to me or just making a statement. Either way....do you care to elaborate?

Either you don't understand or care to understand the fickle nature of these private and profitable companies. These are multi national business people who will invest in the best area possible and only care about how much money is to be made.They aren't going to invest in Canada or the US just because they live here. As such, IF the government of that given area wants them to invest in their country then they need to insure the companies are given enough incentives to make it more attractive than other areas. Keep in mind, there are other areas in the world that produce oil and they have no problem investing there. As an example of how fickle these guys are, just look at Suncor and the cancelation of the Voyageur project. It was an 11.6billion dollar upgrader which they cancelled recently after already sinking 3.5 billion into it. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/suncor-cancels-voyageur-project-takes-hit-to-profit/article10453855/). They have no problem flipping the switch if they feel they can make more money elsewhere or at another time. Its not just oil companies that do this....Tim Hortons back in 2009 returned to Canada after previously incorporating in the US due to cheaper corporate taxes. Once the Feds lowered the rates, they came back. Its all about the money with big business. As for your comment "when they provide no inherently greater good than any other business that provides jobs and adds to the economy?" 1. The royalties are worth it especially considering we don't know how long oil will be the major player in the market. In 2008, oil companies in Canada got 2.8 billiion in subsidies according to a GSI report (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/Global/international/publications/climate/2010/Tax%20and%20Royalty%20Related%20Subsidies%20to%20Oil%20Extraction%20from%20High%20Cost%20Fields%20November%202010%205MB.pdf) However, over the next 35 years Alberta is expected to recieve 1.2 Trillion dollars in royalties which is about 34 billion per year. This does not include corporate income tax provincially or federally. I think its safe to say that the government gets its money back with a great return. (http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/27/alberta-oil-sands-royalties-ceri_n_1382640.html) 2. You say they provide no other good than other businesses that provides jobs however you are missing the point that the Oil and Gas industry provide so many more jobs. The 2011 Brookings study (http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2011/7/13%20clean%20economy/0713_clean_economy.pdf) tried to combat the idea that oil/gas jobs were so good. They showed that 2.4 million jobs in the US were directly attributed to oil/gas versus 2.7 million in green ecomony jobs. Note the wording....green ecomony (not energy). Green ecomony means everything and anything that benefits the environment such as public transit, forestry/conservation, waste management, waste water treatment and a whole bunch of other jobs that exists regardless of renewable versus oil. But....when you look furhter you will see the break out show that direct jobs from renewable energy sources add up to ~138,000. This versus 2.4 million in the oil and gas....and 9.2million indirect as quoted by other sources. That's a lot of jobs. Can they be replaced by renewable jobs someday....maybe. But in the mean time the government has to go with the forces that drive the economy.

Who needs a flying car when you can have a jet pack!! http://m.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/a-personal-jetpack-is-going-on-the-market-next-year/26839 These babies are going to hit the market next year but let's not talk about economics quite yet as they are starting at 150k. Not sure if the EPA will approve these simply based on the noise pollution!!