betsy

Just when I thought you were starting to avoid stereotyping... In your previous post, you mentioned that moderate Muslims/Imams should not be blamed for the actions of others: No to both Now you are reverting back to stereotyping by saying that it "is an Imam-thing". Once again, I have never said that it's not a problem, I have acknowledged this problem several times. At first, I thought this was an innocent mistake on your part. But seeing as how I've said this several times now, I can only assume that you are intentionally making this strawman argument. The only thing I am trying to argue against here is your use of stereotypes, that is labelling the teaching of hate as "an Imam thing" when you yourself have admitted that not all Imams are teaching hate. Everything is clearly explained. If you refuse to accept it...c'est la vie! Thank you for asking....but I'll have to decline. Right now, I'm in no mood to dance the Leftie Merry-Go-Round polka....nor the Leftie Twist. Maybe later.

I don't know, you were the one that posted the link about faith-based arbitration! All I know is that it's apparently been going on in Ontario since 1991, but no one has mentioned it or started a thread about it yet. This is from the link YOU provided. I didn't know it's been going on since 1991! My thread title is a question. And it was followed by several questions.....

I don't know, You don't know. You've made a big claim about Jews and Christian arbitration...and you're backing it up with, "I don't know." Oh well, then you've really got nothing to say. Thank you for being honest, though.

Why should I retract? It STILL IS, an Imam-Thing! The Islamic Council says, it IS an Imam-thing! "This hate is taught to STUDENTS BECOMING IMAMS for the Muslim community in America, WHO TEACH IT TO THOUSANDS OF MUSLIM YOUTH in mosques and schools. " http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/CMS/T...19129242002.htm Read that! STUDENTS who will BECOME IMAMS are being brainwashed to preach hate! How many become Imams in a year? In every country? These new Imams (the students) will then teach others! Do the math! That's why the Islamic Council is DESPERATE to stop this practice of Imams teaching the students who will become future Imams! So, I and the Islamic Council...who also represent thousands of moderate Muslims...are saying "hey look, we've got major problems with Imams teaching hatred in mosques! They're making radicals and terrorists out of muslim youth." Didn't you see what the extremists are doing to the members of the Islamic Council? Didn't you read that last link I gave you.....which you requested, btw? The artucle titled: "National Muslim Organizations Incite Modern Day Lynch Mob" on post #39. Have you ever watched a horror movie? The Islamic Council runs to you screaming...."gc1765! gc1765! Help! there is a monster under my bed! It's going to hurt me! Here's the proof <holding up a bomb strap or whatever>...." Then you just say..."Oh c'mon. Monsters? It can't be. You must be having a nightmare! Go back to bed." You are practically dismissing their claim and desperation to clean their community of radicalism. You are in way....falling into the trap of helping the radicals....by discrediting what the Moderates are saying to be the root of the problem.

What exactly do you mean? What I mean is that you appear to be opposed to "faith-based arbitration" for Muslims, which I assume is why you started this thread. So, are you also opposed to "fait-based arbitration" for Jews and Christians? Please, give an example of what you mean by faith-based arbitration for Jews and Christians. Just to be sure what you mean.

It's not that obvious. Can you please clearly state your position. Specifically: a) Do you believe all Imams/Mulsims are teaching hate? if your answer to part a) is no, do you believe that the Imams/Muslims who are not teaching hate deserve to be lumped in with, and criticized for, the actions of the Imams/Muslims who are teaching hate? No to both. But I do believe that all Imams that aren't preaching hate should be taking a strong and unequivocal stand against those that are. These men have enormous power over their followers. It's not only one or 2 involved.....but hundreds worldwide. It is a serious matter. And I posted the Islamic Council stance to show that not all Imams are preaching hate. That some are in fact, taking a strong stand. But not all. So it's not enough. We didn't need to assume all Germans are Nazi before we took a stand against Nazism....why are we not willing to take a stand now when the parallels are so obvious.

It's obvious from the link I gave you where I stand on that. If you don't like my cat analogy...hey what can I say? You can call the SPCA.

Oh and btw, I hope June CLEAVER got her name from her husband....not from her reputation. Kinda have an ominous ring to it, don't you agree?

Oh and btw, I hope June CLEAVER got her name from her husband....not from her reputation.

I am not in the business of convincing people. I think I had given adequate materials from the most reliable source there is. If you still cannot see it for what it is....then it's no longer my problem. Just because you refuse to see it or do not agree with it, does not mean it's not happening.

It's right there on the link I gave you! What do you think the Islamic Council is trying to say? Would they have voluntarily identified the problem...and criticise it...if they support it? Anyway, I'll pander to your request and hopefully this makes your day. "National Muslim Organizations Incite Modern Day Lynch Mob CAIR’s false allegations create hysteria amongst American Muslims. Death threats, harassment and acts of discrimination ensue "One of the most duplicitous and effective tactics to destroy a person, which is common in the Washington political jungle, is to take a person’s statements, reverse the meaning, and then attack the person for what they want him to say in order to destroy him."- former government official, ISCA Supporter (Washington, DC)—In an attempt to censor the viewpoints of moderate Muslims living in America, the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) in concert with six other "American" Muslim organizations have unified to stifle the First Amendment rights of Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA), and have instigated a modern day Muslim lynch mob. On February 25, 1999, seven Muslim organizations (see end of release), issued a statement condemning the discussion by Shaykh Kabbani at a State Department Open Forum on Islamic extremism and demanded that he issue an apology and retraction. They deliberately distorted the words and took phrases out of context from the speech, knowing it would incite furor and hatred towards the council and its chairman. In response, many emotionally-charged individuals have issued threatening statements to Shaykh Kabbani and his council members. The following are excerpts from a few of the written responses received thus far, illustrating the very actions the scholar warned against in his address: • "YOU ARE ALL ISRAELI AGENTS. WE WILL DESTROY YOU. DIE IN HELL. Beware of your actions….The Anti-Kabbani Coordinating Council is in the process of being formed…." – Irfan Handoo, Kansas City, student and member of ISNA • I CAN'T BELIEVE THE STATEMENTS IN CAIR..!!! Stay away from the next ISNA or any other Islamic conference!!! If not you will walk away limping if not worse. I swear by Allah..! –from email account [email protected] • "I WANT TO SEE YOU DEAD…lets just say it’s a result of the recent tide of something that you have such a genuine fear of that you must warn your friends…[about] the extremist students…the last one you’ll ever see" – unsigned but copied to students of the Organization of Arab Students, University of Maryland-College Park As in Uzbekistan, where Muslim extremists recently killed 200 fellow Muslims, there is a modern day witch hunt taking place throughout the world, including the West. In America, the stage has also been set for the imposition of the tyrannical practices of the extremists, but the actors and tactical approach are different. "The carefully orchestrated and calculated plot to intimidate Shaykh Kabbani into retracting his statements only goes to prove the unwillingness to tolerate differences of opinion and belief; as well as the extent to which they would go to silence the voice of opposition. These organizations have recklessly endangered the lives of our officers and members by unjustly provoking the community against us. We shall hold them personally responsible for any physical, emotional, or psychological damages that may ensue from their irresponsible behavior. " – ISCA General Secretary, Dr. Hedieh Mirahmadi. The Islamic Supreme Council of America invites the entire Muslim population, US government officials and media representatives to investigate this civil war and conclude for themselves who is really responsible for endangering the security of Muslims in the US. http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/s...rica030399.html ----------------------------- So, will you lend a helping hand to the moderate Muslims and acknowledge that along with all of us non-Muslims, they too, have a big problem?

From these first two paragraphs, I thought for a moment that perhaps you see Muslims the same way I do. That is, you realize that there are a few wackos mixed in with a majority of moderates. But your second paragraph disappointed me, as I realized you don't get it. Not all muslims are whackos. Why don't you get out and meet some of these moderates, they might change your opinion. Or, if you can't do that, at least type "muslims condemn terrorism" into google. It will only take a minute, what do you have to loose? It is you, who don't get it. You are responding in the typical knee-jerk reaction...refusing to understand what is being said. I do not say all Muslims are whackos. Do not put words in my mouth. Will you read this excerpt from the link that I gave.... "This hate is taught to students becoming Imams for the Muslim community in America, who teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools. The result is deadly as we all witnessed on September 11, 2001." http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/CMS/T...19129242002.htm That came from the Islamic Supreme Council. They say that hate is being taught to students who are studying to become Imams for the Muslim community in America....who in turn teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools! Just what is this council? "The Islamic Supreme Council of America (ISCA) is a non-profit, non-governmental religious organization dedicated to working for the cause of Islam. ISCA aims to provide practical solutions for American Muslims, based on the traditional Islamic legal rulings of an international advisory board, many of whom are recognized as the highest ranking Islamic scholars in the world. For the first time in America, we have tried to integrate traditional scholarship in resolving contemporary issues affecting the maintenance of Islamic beliefs in a modern, secular society." http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/bin/s...e_about_us.html The Islamic Supreme Council see the problem. They identified the problem. They acknowledge that there is a problem. Why can't you?

No, to be honest I did not bother to read it. From the title alone, "Do men really want wives like June Cleaver?"....I don't really think it makes any difference at all. Did anyone here say that all men want wives like June Cleaver? Or that men don't want working wives? I'm sure it would make an interesting or entertaining read....it's just that I don't rely on polls, surveys or datas or news articles to run my personal life. I want to think for myself, thank you. If I want to have a career after I'm married, or would want to be the traditional June Cleaver....all I've got to do is be honest with the man I date. If my plans does not jell with what he's got in mind...then, it's choice time! Is there room for compromise or not? Can I be happy without him or not? You know...that kind of stuff... But then I'm past all that. I'm married. And my husband does not mind if I want to work out of the house or to stay in the house. Anyway, what's your point? I don't get it. For someone who's been talking so much of "oppression" from men...you seem to give a lot of importance to what men want. Why would it matter to you what men want for a wife? Why should you care?

Most of the samples you gave came from the United States. Do you have examples where a large segment of Canada's Muslim population is being radicalized? Wasn't a Canadian Muslim accused of being involved with 9/11? (Not sure what happened to that) Weren't Canadian Muslims....arrested for plotting to take the Parliament hostage and behead our MPs? Weren't the Canadian Khadrs involved with terrorism? May not be much....but you see that radicalism is here! For all you know, Canada had escaped being targetted only because it serves an important purpose: it serves as a viable entry point. As the saying goes, you don't mess around in your own backyard. But it seems the gloves are off now that Al Qaeda had declared we're definitely on the list!

Whoopie! I'm impressed! But, really...suspension? Only approx 3 months? Even though some Muslim leaders called for his dismissal? Taking into consideration the state of affairs happening all over the world? When moderate Muslims are trying to do some damage control? I guess getting caught selling marijuana is far, far, far more serious than that! "Azerbaijan: Marijuana Mullah Sacked From Mosque A brief report from Baku Today reports that in the Azerbaijan city of Naftalan, a mosque leader has been arrested for selling marijuana. The akhund (imam), named as Vidadi Rzayev, (not the Azeri soccer player of the same name) had been removed from his position at the Naftalan mosque last month for "executing his duties poorly." Hmmm...." http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/001914.html http://www.bakutoday.net/view.php?d=19291

I have 4 cats. One of them is a terror. She attacks even our biggest dog. The other three are all passive, little angels. Since she is the only one among all four to behave in this whacko manner, I then conclude that it is an individual thing. If, however, all four of them behave as such....then I would assume it is a cat-thing. When you have one Imam spewing hate and damnation, I guess it fair to assume he is one whacko. But when you have Imams worldwide, spewing vitriol...it becomes an Imam-thing. When they're teaching their already-violence loving students to follow in their ideological-religious-footsteps...it becomes a problem now and for the future. "The idea is to protect all citizens from religious fanatics who preach hate," said Nazir Ahmed , 47, a member of the House of Lords from Yorkshire who is visiting Washington this week. The measure, he said, would apply to extremist Islamic imams as well as nativist British zealots. Violators would face seven years in prison. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...3002158_pf.html While Saudi government spends millions to convince Americans that they are friends and allies, Saudi diplomats in Washington are spreading hate against Americans from all creeds Islamic, Jewish and Christian and others. The American people and their elected leaders must respond appropriately to this hate. Organizations involve in hatred must be closed down and their operatives must be asked to leave the US. This hate is taught to students becoming Imams for the Muslim community in America, who teach it to thousands of Muslim youth in mosques and schools. The result is deadly as we all witnessed on September 11, 2001. http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/CMS/T...19129242002.htm In April 2004, Verhagen had called for a new law, in which people who threatened democracy, such as imams who called for gays to be killed, could be called to account. He was speaking then following the publication of a book called De weg van the moslim or "The way of the Muslim", on sale in the El Tawheed mosque in Amsterdam, which advocated methods for killing homosexuals. Other books at the mosque claimed women should be circumcised, and following the injunction in the Koran (sura 4: 34) advised that women who lied to their husbands should be scourged. The mosque had caused controversy when one of its clerics had described non-Muslims as "firewood for hell". http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/001913.html These are just samples I took from the internet in just 2 minutes.

Just like Lepine? Was that your argument over Lepine when he shot several women in Montreal....he's just an isolated whacko? Somehow, I doubt it. His slaughter had been held up annually as a symbol of rampant violence against women in society. AND HE WAS ONE ISOLATED CASE.

Are you speaking of yourself? BTW the cleric who made the comments has been suspended by his mosque. That's a lot stronger and infinitely quicker action than Catholic's church dealing with pedofile priests. Being downright rude does not validate your argument....get a grip! You hold up the suspension of ONE imam for inciting violence against one particular group and crow: "See?" I am speaking of the broader picture. How many imams are scatttered all over the world poisoning and manipulating minds through the faith and the position they hold? We know that they exist! They don't hide it.

I agree. But it seems this has been going on since 1991, and Christians and Jews have been using this same system...so why hasn't anyone complained about this before? What exactly do you mean?

But some of these whackos hold positions that could sway and incite the general group of people into becoming whackos. Just the thought of spending eternity with 72 virgins could turn a young man into whacko!

What do you propose to do about the Muslims? With all the related violent incidents happening around the world....and other non-violent instances as well....where we see the efforts being exerted at cracking the western way of life....to be honest, I kinda share Leafless' attitude about them. Except that it troubles me to think an elected public official even considered integrating it to our legal system. It should've been a non-issue. Was it the protests that swayed McGuinty's decision to back away from it? This topic is sort of a "delayed reaction"....since this is actually old news. I am afraid this may not be the end of that. Seeing the way some of the Liberals leadership candidates handled themselves in the Israel-Lebanon war....the ease of which the NDP could think of negotiating with the Taliban....McGuinty entertaining the idea....and the chances that we might see another Liberal government in power.....anything could happen. In the name of appeasement. Anyway, I myself, have been asking several questions in this topic. My title itself, is a question though I forgot to put the question mark.

I agree. But it seems this has been going on since 1991, and Christians and Jews have been using this same system...so why hasn't anyone complained about this before? I'm guessing not too many people were aware of it, but apart from that, there didn't seem to be the issue of forced compliance. IMO it was simply the first step towards expanding Sharia law, I doubt it would stop at arbitration issues. I wasn't aware it had been going on since 1991! I guess I read the said article and looked at it from a different angle....reading what was said as an outright defiance of the law.

Do you think there is no wife beating? I guess taking an accurate survey is almost impossible with this community. Most probably it will be like trying to spot a victim of white slavery....the victims are afraid to talk. "While North American Muslims loudly protest the widely-documented Serbian abuse of Muslim women in Bosnia, the abuse of many Muslim women at the hands of their own husbands in North America is hidden and ignored by the community. Domestic violence is the single major cause of injury to women in America. "Nearly one quarter of women in the United States - more than 12 million- will be abused by a current or former partner some time during their lives," according to the American Medical Association; and, despite Islamic teachings of justice and compassion, many Muslim women in the United States and Canada are no exception. Based on information from Muslim leaders, social workers, and activists in North America, the North American Council for Muslim Women says that approximately 10 percent of Muslim women are abused emotionally, physically, and sexually by their Muslim husbands. (There are no hard numbers, because community leaders haven't taken the well-known problem seriously enough to research.) Wife-abuse, which stretches across all ethnic, racial, educational, and socio-economic lines in the Muslim community, results in severe emotional and physical pain for many Muslim women, a stacking up of sins for many Muslim men, and many weak, unhappy Muslim families that fail to contribute adequately to the development of the Muslim community and the rest of North American society. Despite the severity of the problem, the Muslim community has largely closed its eyes and devoted very few resources to helping the victims and stopping the abusers. This is doubly unfortunate because family violence is one of America's most critical health problems (according to the American Medical Association and the U.S. Surgeon General), and Islamic leadership is needed to deal with this crisis; but Muslims are clearly in no moral position to lead society because they commit and tolerate abuse within their own community. http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50043

Jack Layton surely did a lot of expressing.

Oh Gerry.....