betsy

FACT: THE BIBLE GIVES AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION BY THE WORD "STRETCH!" http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274 In light of these accurate terminology used in the Bible (at least 11 times!), used in the right context pertaining to and/or to describe creation - which I'm almost sure evolutionists scientists scoff at as merely "coincidental - there is truly a basis for the supernatural in explaining our beginning! That indeed, the theory of an Intelligent Designer is very much valid! That it points so blatantly at the Judeo-Christian God as the Intelligent Designer of this universe is not just a mere theory, but rather a statement of truth! How can the Bible know of such things thousands of years ago.....which science only discovered in 1929? They want empirical evidence? Wasn't it through observations that it's been discovered the universe is stretching? Well it's backed by empirical evidence! Observable! One would think that science's quest for knowledge and understanding would make it to consider the Bible - or at least consider the Intelligent Design theory. Instead they choose to dismiss it and exclude it! And yet they fumble, and go through all sorts of contortions -manipulating- trying to fill up gaps to make their failed theories right! Evolutionist scientists are not driven by their sincere desire for knowledge and understanding. Some are driven by mere egos! Pride! Some by their abhorrence of religion. But whatever it is that drives them...it is clear that they're not up to the challenge of coming face-to-face with the supernatural. They remain in their little box, so secure within its walls....so afraid to venture out. Fools.

FACT: EXPANDING UNIVERSE: Science uses the word, "STRETCHING/STRETCHES/STRETCHED!" So once again, science proves that The Bible clearly described what science had only recently discovered. The Bible used the exact term, "STRETCHED/STRETCHES," in the right context pertaining to creation or design - the same term now being used by science! Below are quotes from several science sources. http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274 http://www.science27.com/english/introduction1.html http://www.mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/uspeak/feb_02_uspeak.mhtml http://www.jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/newcosmology.html According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation. These are all taken from the New International Version. Zeccheraih 12:1 1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: Jeremiah 10:12 (and also Jer 51:15) 12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. Psalm 104:2 2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent Job 9:8 8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. Isaiah 40:21-22 21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? 22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 42:5 5 This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: Isaiah 44:24 24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself, Isaiah 45:12 12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts. Isaiah 48:12-13 12 “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. 13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. Isaiah 51:12-13 12 “I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mere mortals, human beings who are but grass, 13 that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor? For that line repeated at least 11 times , and in the right context.....truly, only the Designer could've known about that!

FACT: PROPHECIES HAVE COME TRUE! Some of the passages that's already been posted (and proven by science)....it can be said that they're prophetic in that they were proven true. There are other specific prophecies that will be dealt with in this topic. For those of you who keeps comparing the Bible (God) to other gods/faith/beliefs.....it's best that you take note of this passage from Isaiah. I can't help but feel that God seems to be joining this discussion (through the Bible).....for how many passages have appropriately given replies - arguments and rebuttals in this topic. And this is His reply to those who bring up comparisons with other gods/beliefs. I have boldened the interesting verses. This is about the gods of Babylon: ISAIAH 46: 5-13 5 “With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? 6 Some pour out gold from their bags and weigh out silver on the scales; they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god, and they bow down and worship it. 7 They lift it to their shoulders and carry it; they set it up in its place, and there it stands. From that spot it cannot move. Even though someone cries out to it, it cannot answer; it cannot save them from their troubles. 8 “Remember this, keep it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. 12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are now far from my righteousness. 13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel. The rhetorical question, to whom will you liken me? implies the obvious answer - no one! His uniqueness is found in His declaration: I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. God's singular distinctiveness is His ability to predict the future with complete accuracy! Since He alone knows the future, in the timetable of God all things are proceeding on schedule.

I've explained the uniqueness of the Bible. See my response to Scouter Jim. Furthermore, I've listed down science-proven facts which are in the Bible (and I am not through yet). With my researching of facts, I'd say I'm doing some elbow-greasing here. Actually as I've said in the OP, I'm learning too as I go along. I throw to you the same challenge I've thrown to Scouter. Cite one ancient religion book (similar to the Bible) that speaks of creation/cosmology that has as many science-proven facts in it! If you're still going to throw that same-old tired line about its similarities with other religion or belief - knowing what you know now, so far - then you better back it up with something! Otherwise it's just all hot air, knee-jerk reaction, irrational resistance, or to borrow WIP's term, pure "bombast." You've mentioned that if we do want to find out we need some elbow-greasing. I assume that you too want to find out. Are you reading and studying the Bible?

Is that all you can throw at the Bible? Book-royalty cheques? Well at least we're not just paying for and lapping up silly theories about creation/evolution! Modern science is proving we're getting exactly what we paid for!

FACT: Science remains baffled - Part 2: .. Knowledge and understanding of our beginning trickles down ever so slowly. This is partly inspired by the expanding universe. With all the high technology and advanced science, all the other discoveries in various areas that affect us – health and well-being, environment, etc.. - practically zoom by. There's hardly any day that goes without someone discovering something somewhere. Yet the answer to our beginning seem as elusive as ever. Knowledge trickles down. Appetites for more are whetted when scientists come up with theories of various sort that shows some promise that this could be it, only to hit a brickwall or get stumped. The footnotes/reference I posted previously was so fascinating. You could feel the electricity of expectations that didn't pan out, the confusions, bafflement and even awe. http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=30 You must wonder as I do why with all the advancement in other areas, how come we don't understand how it all began. I read this passage this morning: ISAIAH 46:9-11 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. God had it all planned. God has His own timetable. He'll follow His own schedule...according to His pleasure. He can use anyone, or anything - including science - to fulfill His purpose.

First of all let's get this clear. The Bible is not proving that science is right....it is science that's proving the Bible is right! You're always hitting on my sources! Never mind my sources! Tackle the issue(s) directly - and as you can see they are many. WIP, you're forgetting one very crucial fact: FACT: The word "expanding" got coined by the scientists only in 1929 (?)! It describes what they discovered. The factual phrase of God "stretches/stretched the heavens" is a whole lot older than science "expanding" term! The question you should ask is: Of all words available for use....how come science used that word, "EXPANDING?" You'd think that evolutionist scientists would avoid using that word at all cost! But of course they didn't avoid using that term "expanding." You know why? They can't! Did it ever occur to you that God had something to do with that? This is not about the theory of the Big Bang! The theory of the Big Bang is nothing. It could just as easily been another theory....with eventually - and inevitably - the same result! It will support what the Bible said. Whoa! It's not us ordinary folks who discovered that the universe is expanding. It is not us ordinary folks who decided to use that word "expanding." That the word "expanding" accurately supports the Bible phrase - within the right context of creation - God "stretches the heaven," at least 11 times, is not our fault. The discovery of the expanding universe also means that the universe has a beginning! I just posted this below, but I think it fits the argument here. ISAIAH 46:9-11 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’ 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that I will bring about; what I have planned, that I will do. God had it all planned. God has His own timetable. He'll follow His own schedule...according to His pleasure. He can use anyone, or anything - including science - to fulfill His purpose.

Wait....one at a time. Let's settle this one before jumping on to the next. Can you cite one ancient book like the Bible containing some "silly" beliefs that's now being proven by science to be true? You dismissed my assertion above as to why the Bible is unique: All through the ages, its message hardly changed, if it ever did at all - maintaining its fluidity and continuity from the time of Abraham to the last Apostle who wrote his entry. We're talking so many centuries and generations between the Old Testament and the New Testament alone! The Bible is not only very much around right now - it's also consistently the best-selling book! Furthermore, we're seeing that science is supporting what the Bible said.....or should I say, the Bible is showing us that science has just discovered what the Bible has been saying all along! You dismissed that by saying, So to back up your claim, I want you to cite ONE - only ONE - ancient book similar to the Bible which contains "silly" beliefs and/or statements that's been proven by science.

I agree. Creationists believe in micro-evolution, just like the examples you've given.

400? Where are they??? Are you sure you didn't post them elsewhere in other forums? Well I guess you're confusing me with somebody else. A far as I know, ther's no so-called evidence to ignore, since you've not given any evidence at all. What you've presented is a graph of some sort that shows arcs and colors! If you're saying they are contradictions within the Bible, then why don't you explain specifically what they are so we can discuss them! Anybody can pick out a statement from the Bible and say..."here! This one contradicts that one!" And guess what, usually they are taking the passage out of context just so they can say it's a contradiction. Bible detractors are prolific quote-miners! One favorite quote-mined passage is about sanitation! They say Jesus promotes the practice of not washing your hands - of course they just took that one line and disregarded the whole paragraph and thus, taken His words out of context! What do you think will happen if I go marching in TalkOrigin and present them with a graph showing nothing but arrows, arcs and rainbows, saying...."Here! Here is my evidence that you're all full of c**p!" I'll be laughed at and marched right back out of that site and they'll hang a note that sez "stay out!" We're supposed to be in a forum. Not in an "art" gallery. Whose fingers are stuck in whose ears and shouting "I can't hear you?" So I'm hopeless. Entirely hopeless. Close-minded. Pig-headed. Narrow-minded. No new information can change my mind. My ears are plugged. That's a very definitive assessment you've got on me. You're so conclusive about that. You're saying I am a waste of your time..... ...then so long already. Good-bye. Adieu. What's with all this long and tearful farewell....

FACT: Hydrological Cycle or Water Cycle Before science, people mustve seen the rain fall and rivers flowing into the sea and yet did not understand the rains origin and why the sea level never rose. Modern science now understands the hydrological cycle which consists of evaporation, atmospheric transportation, distillation, and precipitation. Please take note that Ecclesiastes 1:4-7 is dealing with the descriptions of cycles. Ecclesiastes 1:7 4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. 5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. 7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. Jeremiah 10: 13 13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar; he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth. He sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses. Amos 9:6 6 he builds his lofty palace[a] in the heavens and sets its foundation on the earth; he calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land the LORD is his name. Job 36:27-28 27 He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams[c]; 28 the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind.

Happy reading. Bye-bye.

Then spell them out...in details! Words. Written words. English words! I expect you to confront the details that are given here...not some typical sweeping attacks on the Bible...or the source. Face the materials given, and de-bunk them!

Bring me something that contradicts the Biblical facts that are listed here which are supported by science! In details. Not some arcs or arrows or rainbow colors...or any digitalized gimmickry!

Well I do hope Dre didn't see that as an insult because I didn't mean it as an insult. It just struck me since another poster (Moonlight Graham?) asked a similar question. They are - at least that's what it seems to me - responding as atheists. Anyway, being raised in a religious family doesn't necessarily mean fully embracing and/or understanding the faith...or what is faith. Some can just go through the motion (consciously or unconsciously), and some have doubts even when they are neck-deep in religion. But then, it wasn't me who was asking "who created the Creator," was it? I was just responding to the question(s). And what are you on about that statement, "incapable of grasping the concept that most people don't make decisions and live their lives based on a whim of faith?" You're inside a thread that's titled, "The Bible" with the description stating, "Sciences, Prophecies, studies/interpretations." What's that got to do with this discussion?

Phooooey! What was dat? I was expecting some arguments or evidences negating the Bible facts - supported by science - that are listed here. Those are just some grays and a whole bunch of red arcs! Somebody must've been playing with the new hi-tech equipment. Just like when a teener gets a new-generation Playstation or XBox. Ooooooh, check out the graphics! See what it can do. That's just eye-candy...no substance!

FACT: EXPANDING UNIVERSE According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation. These are all taken from the New International Version. Note: From: Center for Scientific Creation Zeccheraih 12:1 1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: Jeremiah 10:12 (and also Jer 51:15) 12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. Psalm 104:2 2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent Job 9:8 8 He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea. Isaiah 40:21-22 21 Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? 22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. Isaiah 42:5 5 This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it: Isaiah 44:24 24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself, Isaiah 45:12 12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts. Isaiah 48:12-13 12 “Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last. 13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. Isaiah 51:12-13 12 “I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mere mortals, human beings who are but grass, 13 that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor? For that line repeated at least 11 times , and in the right context.....truly, only the Designer could've known about that!

Was the woman turned completely into salt...or just partly salt....or just encased in salt? Anyway, have you lived near the ocean? There's salt in the air....at least near sea water. The way I understand that law, it's like matter and energy can be "recycled," if that's the right term. Well I dunno. I don't have the answer on that....maybe I'll stumble on it one of these days.

Can you cite one ancient book like the Bible containing some "silly" beliefs that's now being proven by science to be true?

What's wrong about the cut-and-paste method? If it can rebutt or if it can answer a question, what's wrong about that? Talk Origin have no qualms about the cut-and-paste method. The last time I look, there's nothing there that says you cannot use any of the sources they provide as a tool for argument or rebutt! The onus is on the user (the "cutter") to ensure that what he is "cutting" is accurate and credible! At least, most, if not all "cutters" I've seen on this forum have been honest enough to admit they did a cut-and-paste, and gave credit to the sites they've got their quotes! They provide the site's link. Have you? Anyway, if we make a claim, it better be supported by something...otherwise it's nothing more than just a personal opinion! Have you supported your claims? In the other thread "The Bible," you made a casual comment about Hebrew cosmology being similar with Sumerian beliefs, with nothing to back it up! I asked you to be more specific...so far, I'm still waiting! The onus is on the user to determine the accuracy of what he's copying! He takes a risk if he uses a "dud" in a debate since it could as easily rip his/her credibility! Did you by any chance use any of TalkOrigin's rebutt in the other thread, "The Bible?" So does most of the Creationist sites! I can say the same thing. There are sources directing the reader to find more in-depth information, so that the reader can have more than a rebuttal to evolutionists' spin, and may develop a greater degree of Bible understanding, scientific literacy, and logical reasoning....something that is really, really, very badly needed these days.

Let me explain. WIP has this thing against "cut-and-paste," (although I don't know why)...and taking quotes from other online sources. He probably thinks you're "quote-mining."

Yes, that's true. He said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts. My ways are not your ways." We won't comprehend the how and the why....not unless He let us know - and how much he wants us to know, and when. Do you consider yourself an agnostic? Just asking... Except that the other "ant" (science) seemed to have been created for the very purpose of Him making a clear statement, and supporting this "ant" (Bible).

Well apparently there are indeed ancient flood stories/legends - the "global" kind - from various parts of the world. Excerpts from "Flood Legends From Around The World...." http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

FACT: SCIENCE REMAINS BAFFLED! As I was doing my research on a specific fact, I stumbled upon the reference/footnote section of this particular site. The following entries provide a "snapshot" of confusions, puzzlements and awe as some of these scientists struggle to understand how it all began. http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ19.html Then I read this passage from the Bible: Isaiah 44:24-25 (King James Version) 24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; 25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; Praise the Lord!

FACT: Existence of ocean currents This is about Matthew Fontaine Maury, named as the Father of Oceanography, and the inspiration he got from the Bible, specifically Psalm 8:8 and Ecclesiastes 1:6. Psalm 8: 3-9 (KJV) 3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet: 7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas. 9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! Ecclesiastes 1:4-6 (NIV) 4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever. 5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. 6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346 From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Matthew_Fontaine_Maury_Statue.jpg