DarkAngel_

I don't mean any of the following to be a personal attack and I hope that my calmness comes across. It is not meant to be bitter or an angry rant: Why marriage and not civil unions? I can't speak for Canada, but here in the US, the Supreme Court decided in Brown v. Board of Ed. that separate is not equal. Having two different statuses (stati?) is inherently unequal. Marriage as a Christian sacrament is defined as the union of one man and one woman in the eyes of the Lord. (Other religions, Islam for example, allow for different marital structures such as bigamy, so even the Christian definition of marriage as one man-one woman is not universal.) Being gay myself, knowing many people who led the marriage equality fight here in Massachusetts, and reading a lot of gay media, I have never seen nor heard one single gay person even whisper about wanting to force churches and religious institutions to honor gay marriages. Your church is safe. Your faith is safe. We know we're not welcome and we have no interest in crashing your party. Marriage as a secular institution is what gay people seek. The state issues licenses for marriages. In the US, the state has an obligation to treat all its citizens equally unless the state can argue a compelling state interest in acting in a discriminatory manner. There is no compelling state interest in banning gays from getting a civil permit to be married. Gay marriage does not threaten the family unit -- but even if it did, the onus is on the state to prove in a court of law that preserving one man-one woman marriage is a compelling state interest and that gay marriage would destroy it. The reality is that states cannot prove it because it is not provable. Therefore, gay couples should be issues marriage licenses as freely and as equally as the state gives them to straight couples. About bigotry, no, being against gay marriage doesn't automatically make you a bigot. But since opposition to gay marriage almost always boils down to one's dislike of gay people, revulsion, or misinformation about some "gay agenda" to kidnap and convert your children, you have to understand why most gay people automatically call their opponents bigots. The fact is that most of the people who oppose gay marriage do so based on certain bigoted impulses. If you can think of a purely non-bigoted reason why the state ought to discriminate and/or treat people differently, I'd love to hear it. Religious belief doesn't count as an argument, since we're talking wholly about the issuance of a civil (i.e., secular) marriage license. About the sin aspect... I would never tell you what your religious faith should be, but I would encourage you to at least be consistent. Either the entire Bible is the word of God or none of it is. I am one of those people who is frequently called a Cafeteria Catholic because I don't live my life 100% according to Catholic doctrine. Well, how about most Christians? Most are awfully selective about which parts of they Bible they choose to follow and which parts feed their outrage. Either apply your religious beliefs as the basis for every aspect of civil life, or apply none of it. If you believe that gay marriage is a sin, then you also ought to be against gambling, being disrespectful of one's parents, touching the flesh of a dead pig, and being covetous of your neighbor's goods and wife and you ought to be equally engaged in the battle to outlaw such Biblical proscriptions. If you want to legislate according to the contents of the Bible, fine, be against gay marriage. But don't be surprised when someone leads the charge to shut down Las Vegas, or to burn all those Pamela Anderson posters, or execute people who work on Sunday -- for all are sins (gambling, lust, not honoring the Sabbath) explicitly proscribed in the Bible. Will you be as equally acquiescent to their legal/Biblical wishes as you ask the rest of us to be with regard to yours? But you raise an interesting point: sin. It may be a sin to be actively engaged in a gay relationship, but isn't it also a sin to prejudge? to be unfair? All I ask is that the state give me the freedom to sin in the privacy of my home and in the privacy of my personal relationships. Opponents to gay marriage seek to enshrine a different sin (inequality) into the law of the land. Wow, i do agree, as it seems the bible says we all sinned... dammed we are! i sin more then your average goat (on rock tour 2007 with tool and ozzy) so i guess in my definition, the term should not be 'marriage' for that is culture based, marriage is a union of man and woman, but what, shall i ask, will be the union between man and man or woman and woman? i do not feel that it harms me, children? well, maybe, so i call that all gay's sensor themselves as a non-gay would! when in Rome! (oh that’s right, Rome fell...) you get my point... keep it safe, do the '?' thing, but any suggestions on the name of this license? 'gay license' is too over the top sooooo....(must work for homosexual as well as Heterosexual)

nope, i see gayness as gay. disgusting. but hell, they like it so... who cares! as long as i'm not involved...

HA! Get ready for a long one, for I wish to speak loudly!!! Pay no mind to my words, madness they are! Angry from their hysterics, so now I am hysterical! Judge? I am no judge! I see no criminal! I see children and god above them, but the men and women of god then telling them, I see no god saying he is so. Your ancestors made this god, I can make a god, give it years and he will be so, an image of man. as in your bible he says man was made in his image, as well with god, that he was made in our image, look at man and observe, god must be hungry, famished even, and like a child, wanting to forget himself, warring inside, disagreeing with himself, confused, wondering and stepping up morals over all! But I see these morals and disagree, that I am to go to hell, I disagree that I should put a god that is an image of man on a golden mantle, for then we are worshiping ourselves! Selfish is that which we have pride in, that culture we cling to, even breed into children who just woke to this world! I have no faith but hope! Faith is blind, they are taught this if then extreme, are they then posing their faith in front of cameras? I speak outside this belief, I am godless and this is my opinion, pay no regard, please, disagree even! That would help me! But do not shove god into my mind, I listen to no saint, it is selfish too, for in any event that a man may be weak in his hopes, he is then strong in his faith. Judge it is a lie? No, find in reality a new truth, a new hope. Are you then judging mine to be a lie? In another post I asked contently, who people follow, men or gods, who do you love more? I love all things, even the bad for it is my fault that they come to me, and I myself can have joy in my shame, that I am not to do harm so do not have to be forgiven. So I love man more, and will grow with man the highest, most common moral. A new member said 'common sense.' He may not have meant what I do, but for the sake of man! Be tired of happiness and use it! Not that their is no god but that their is no god we have met! Your god speaks so he is a man! Show me please what in your god is in this mind, is it the devil then? I’ve seen this devil, and he is the only criminal I see, but he is not past these walls or under my feet. He is here in our mind. Is that me of which you just called a hypocrite? Zealot, that is what they are indeed, but from a child to now, how cruel. And you have to breathe or you will die! Oh no that does not mean I will tell them to breath, please, don't breathe! You will learn then that you WILL die if you don't breathe, and once they start it is because they must! Your god is not air, I do not need him! I have joy in holding my breath, and in each gasp you take do you not kill you god? Now I disagree with myself, you are right! They must be happy! It is the only thing that we live for, so let them! But take care that the men that all say 'god' do not exist! Or the trappers will come, and then you will surely have to hide me!! to teach them so young is wrong because they are 'programmed' so to speak, our code is words and they process them in and identify broadly what in turn is the meaning, they then speak, and at an age then take in words around them, processing them, you see a child does not know a lie from truth, and a 'my truth' does not matter, so if taught from such a young age they will believe anything! even the 'my truth.' it should be that a child is taught the morals, not the religion, and at a time in their life then chooses, they deserve to be independent, for your organized groups of believers pays the church bill, not your faith. If you believe it is so, and believe your children should believe it is so, then prove it. If you can prove it, then it is so. Be sure never to lead children blindly. even now I am sorry for my outburst, but I am a man of ravings, call it mad but this is the way I have chosen to speak, it is my deepest intent to let you feel as I do in my words, but still be proud, my point is that gods do not control bowling balls. (Why didn't I say that in the first place?) but i would agree, unfortunatly i see this as a trick, for my knoledge has taught me that god is made by man. and zeal is never justified, it is a feeling that should come and go, but zeal wants to be happy forever, and never feel anything else. so they beleive.

fight! fight! fight! the young suffer thats no doubt, and babies even more i guess, the mother and fater does as well, but it is all to procreate, it is to 'be.' but if you are not idependant and quite, i guess, stupid, and you realize you are not ready and nether is your family, then i guess it would be ok, but with restriction, the making of life is beautiful? no, the love for those making life is beautiful, other words it's filthy, i don't even know how anyone could love sex so much as to never love, i would die for and by love! so if i loved the life i was making i would be against it, but for right now i beleive birth is not a sickness, so should not be cured. children should be born and abortion allowed in the first stages of pregnacy, no later. now to contimplate ever having a child............

Yes, and don't stub your toe with those bare feet of yours, you know how they swell when you're pregnant! I personally am against 'Pride Parades', I really don't see the point. If we can have parades based on sexual orientation, why can't I organize the "All-Canadian Tit-F*cker's Parade"? (Or, the "I wish my Wife Would Swallow" Parade?) LLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!.............................................. this might be alittle too graphic, but i wish i could have a parade like that too! but the unfortunate part is only the new things in life get parades, things that are not traditional unless they are festive. also other "NO SEX FOR YOU!!" people will see it an say very very slowly..."MY DEAR EYE'S THAT NEVER-" i'll leave the goodins for you, the point is that the NEW things push past the old to be free, supression of this grows the trend, it's like opra, most people don't like it, but those who do, like it too much. now about those beers.......... (get me one too please...)

i would tend to agree, but music has grown and evolved, im into the new musics of rock, metal, techno, new age, piano, celtic, and hell, i like some hip-hop too! but my fav. of beethoven was Moonlight Sonata, very epic, even sad, but most of all it tells a diffrent play to every listener. but if you want crazy go for: nine inch nails, blue october, perfect circle, tool, mudvaine, seether, korn, my chemical romance, and most of all, system of a down, very crazy! almost past insane! then again insanity is the closest point to reality a human can stand, who wants some, i got plenty!!! (NONE FOR YOU!!)

the blind often ask for gifts, and no miracle happens but is proclaimed as such, so a bad bowler then bowls blind so is better, she would ask god for a place in heaven after a murder if she was convinced she would have one, that is radical, the promise of after-life so she has negligence or extremism in this one... get it?

While Christians do believe in end times I have never heard any preachers talking about speeding it up and blowing something up to initiate armageddon. I think maybe these examples are a few wing-nuts. Christianity teaches that no one knows the day or the hour when the end will come. It does not teach not having a future. I think there may be those who corrupt this teaching but they are wing-nuts, not the general God-fearing Christian population. yes but it still leaves fear open to hope turning to hopelessness, it is a 'slave-morality' and i beleive we should be tought all faiths and theorys and choose for ourselves at a more mature time in our lives, not have it 'programmed' or bred into us, i think it is like brainwashing, but on a lesser extent, the qeustion is then, is brain washing right?

Unbelievable? How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God. And you worry about Jesus kids? the point is not severity i'm guessing, and does a kid of god not grow to teach more kids of god to do the same? we past our radical period long ago, are you then implying that no Christian /catholic /Hebrew based faith is radical, at all?!

i again state that homosexuality is a sexuality as well as state of mind, it seems to be a genetic fluke, but most gay people like it so... oh well. the most troubling thing is that if over a long amount of time we keep this up, it may cause genetic abnormalities like having only 1 sex, though for now i think it is trivial, not all gayness is gang/violence related, i disagree in this case, look into science and it will tell you a slightly different story. thinks people's and System of a Down rocks!!!

How funny!! you read it wrong, my mistake, i should have said, 'is it right to let religon control government...' my bad.

wow... is this the ultimate virtue? destroyer you have given me an idea! please hear it! you have just spoke to everyone as if they are fighting, marols are fighting! so mabye that 1 sense that is 'common' could be the ultimate moral, the degree from which all things agree upon. this is the freedom we crave! for morals without opression! destroyer that simple statment was genus!! would you make a post on this? we might learn alot!

a 15 year old? i'm not the youngest?! a small part of me just died inside... i think i'm going to cry. just joking, a young one! yay! one day you'll be better then all of us if you keep learning! and disagree with us it's healthy, disagree with that! well that was fun, and... whats the point of this conversation? i'm 17 but i feel 3, or 50, or 9... i acualy don't know my age, mentally at least. mabye you all could tell me how old i am!! how fun! slow children at play, pick your number and i'll role the dice! bet your years and earn more! if you bet right your really old! if not your to right, and so you'll lose 2years in a week! place your bids!

Well that may be true but if the masses morality is being manipulated today, that means that morality was manipulated well before now. The religious ramification from moral disbalance is often taken as, ‘unpleasant'. but I’d think the immoral for giving us lessons and wisdom, but religion is like our pride, and an unpleased event damages it, so I guess power mongers indeed then speak to their pride but I see that the 'morals or the universe' are not based on what is law, but what is not and the interaction of those boundaries making in effect law or in turn chaos in freedom within effects, if you speak of the ‘herd’, so to speak. then we need to go to a stance were self governance is the freedom of peoples, I’m not meaning anti-statist but we need to see life as self moral, and learn to separate situational from moral, so that we need not ask and so we don’t require to be asked, like a good family, of course we all need to be reminded but that’s not my point, 'thus spoke zarathustra' a book by Fredrich Neitzche speaks of religious morals as ‘a dragon that scales all say 'tho shalt' but our mind craves freedom of our morals and is like a lion that roars 'I will!'’ do you all see a moral high-horse that many have adopted and called belief? the problem is that belief can also mean that you think things are a lie, you deny them without question, because it is your pride and other peoples pride offends you, but with an agreed knowledge, you can realize once thing are told, what is true or not. truth is a reality, not a 'your truth.' so in this case government is lead by people without government, we can try to control them but they can hide in our laws, what then is a solution to this? those men mostly must govern themselves, but are they not unstable like us? well if you ask me their is more then 1 part to the human condition, and they all will act out to be free meaning that we would need a lot of time, change, and self-organization of those sides of our mind, before a morality of the universe is caused.

Yay! but isn't CNN a bit over the top, ya thank the 55% but what did CNN have to say about it this time? Ummm... CNN reported the vote's outcome, that's all. i'm gonna faint....

well im not speaking of proved cases, more so roomers, it's mostly in the U.S. but i'm not trying to paint a picture, i just see that some men in the church have 'dodged a bullet' on rape causes, my uncle thankfully was caught, i just wish their was more of a crack down on the strange-hap side of religion, as for drugs and stuff, i mostly heard roomers, but a training minister here was prosecuted of handling drugs, about a 5 oz baggy of heroine, but was not found guilty because of 'controversial issues' what ever that means.

1: A) im in the states, but I’m a white Indian… in basic. 2: never, but I’ve been in the US 17 years. 3: I make my own culture, my ancestral history has no tie to me directly, but to think that someone in my past that shared my blood did these amazing feats is very fascinating, so I guess I make those things a part of me in a way, but am still western to the other ideologies, so it may be both. 4: um… im kinda an anarchist, I think people find their own spiritual and moral supports. 5: I swing from side to side.

i agree that it is finaly aparent that many men of god are hipocrates, in almost every church their are roomers of sex, drugs, and over night rapes. i know not all men are like this that are in the church, but i've seen some sick people in the faith do some sick things, so whose responsability is it to uncover this in the church, is it that deep into the faiths?

If you look at it, all civilizations go through a radicalism period, what is the renaissance to Europe? to me it was a peak in religious outrage, where in a time of strife the people act out at each other (witch burnings, assassinations, false incrimination, inhuman acts against civilians) we past our radicalism period, even if we still have radicalism it is not as extreme, I just hope the people of the mid-east will fight against those who cause those injustices, they are the true people being oppressed.

Yay! but isn't CNN a bit over the top, ya thank the 55% but what did CNN have to say about it this time?

i live in the states and would like to say that i agree, corparations LOVE war outside our borders, we do not. and what has happened for money or in effect been done obtaining that money, is not a likeable thing, but even then, the end never justifies the means, but new question... what is our end? also, what is equal? to be at the same place. people are not ever all rich or all poor, but my philosiphy is to be more 'self ruled' then a 'ruled self' that way i can grow and flurish on my own to learn, never throwing my misfortune at the rich or state. and knoledge is the power to act. in that, other; more lazy people would rather wait and pay alot of money waiting for a new spout of knoledge to burst into the world. i am a scientest, but am my own boss, that i can get work is a feat on to itself. but can it not be the same for others who compaire their misfortune to the more fortunate? they can grow but must find their own way, money is just objective, i'm ussually broke so i eat at other places that give it out happly to those who can not afford their own food, or i look for other means to eat; hunting, fishing or gathering plants, we need not be so dependent on the state or gov. to eat. all else is mine that i built or purchused to own or use, that is the increase of living, i have a low standard of living, but without my luxurays it would be even lower, so i support myself, and my mistakes. is that not a way you would live?

All i know how to speak is english, i'm just a weird talker thats all! i play golf...

how sweet... but wont it rot? give it back or at least take yours out and replace it once in awhile to keep it nice and fresh, ripe for eating.

Go to Walmart when the welfare cheques have arrived and the new tickle me elmo is on sale....then scoop up the last one and offer it for sale at 3 times the price......then you will know what it is to be oppressed..... hularias, so funny i cant even spell right. but in essence, to be oppressed is to be 'put back or behind another' so in basic, to be in a long line at walmart to pay for a tickle-me-elmo at x-mas and with a discount price that only lastes for 3 hours... then have 5 nazi's cut in front of you, telling them to get back and then getting yelled at by EVERYONE, how whould you feel? angry, if you tolerate it for too long, that is oppressed, but to do something is another story, who knows, i could be wrong, oh well i wrote at least.

well, i did try to find it on my own, i was a Bahá'í for 3 years, and i had sat for days in contimpation, playing events in my mind and finding my response, to see if i could dwell into the emotion, find it's image and tie it to my senses. i woke up every morning at 5, watched the sun rise, and was sure to have good sleep, i walked about 40-60 miles a day in all, observing things around me, trying to understand, i induced dreams to see what my subconsciousness had projected, it was very hard, but i tryed pain training, and i noticed that the more you hurt, the more pain is detectable in all parts of your body. i could not meditate, i was unable too, and i do not know how, but i did paint and write alot, i read history books, and studied science, i read only some of the bible, and was readind hamlet, only part 3 though, i prayed 12 times a day, my Bahá'í teacher told me it was 'an appeal to my faith, to control myself.' i found that my own mind had sadness and anger, and tryed then to solve my problums, i went 'mad' i geuss is the term. but now i must see outside again, i was in my room most of this year and was kicked out of school, i need to see what all human kind think, above that is what in truth their is, our minds do not 'make' reality, but we make our reality out of reality, in any paradox, their is always at least 2 ties into sub-space, it's begining and end, but both are true' the other features are distortions into space, as is our peseption of that reality, so are you saying we are a paradox? if so i agree, but there is no tie to man and reality except that we are real. space is more matter over mind then the other way around, and my mind has told me i am running in a circle in my head if i try to find it without 'looking' outside, space is the final place that we must go to find ourselves, though we are here and we have created a reason for existance, it is not true, as true to others as it may be. i have no faith in my doing so, that i reject what man has said. but i am not to just sit and wait, i need an answer even if it takes me all of my life. if their is a god that wishes to be beleived in, if we did not then would he not die? i beleive we all wish something higher is watching us, but if we stop beleiving will people panic and rush to burnings and hangings as they did? i do not trust in a god that is a phantom, a scielent screamer claiming out words of dieties and men making them so, the earth is our home, and we are not yet ready to leave, but what will we tell our kids? that we killed in the names of gods because those men where bad? schools may not say it, but parents do, and at times can be quite extreme. i have no 'poor out' in my atheism, and i aslo injoy other faiths, but bad men AND women are at play and the world may need to endure them too harshly, and my paranoia is setting in, but in the end faiths will end, like a hot fire to coals, my question in the end is, men or gods? why must mankind be so private in that? i have no ridicul for those who would follow gods, i just need to know your opinion. and i think you for your words before, i will take some days and find more in me that may be real in this madness, and please excuse my outrage, my little brother is being tought, and has been tought from a very young age what to beleive, and i wish they could decide on their own, without major influinces from people who will not keep their mouth shut because they are condesending in their beleif. and if it's that private, why would you fight for it? i cannot harm it, and will not, faith is sacred to me as well, but it is not essencial to me.