Leafless

FTA You wrote- " I never said Canadians had no rights prior to the 1960 Bill of Rights...but the point Iam making is we had a piece of legislation substantively similar to the Charter for almost 50 years now...and that document is just a codification of common law principles that developed beforeit." Sure, a codification that overides provincial human rights and rights that can be interpreted by a federal government and courts to set the stage and impressed on all Canadian provinces. Previously the Bill of rights worked in conjunction with provincial human rights and still do based but based on federally controlled and manipulated Charter rights forcing provinces to comply with it's court backed desires. But you know Charter rights are not being upheld concerning English speakers in Quebec and the escape clause used is the notwithstanding clause applicable to provinces. But what provinces REALLY would be allowed to use that clause in the event of say wanting to establish English as the official language. We already know the answer to that one, don't we? Now Mr. Martin is advocating it's removal on a FEDERAL LEVEL ONLY to attain full control of dictating social policy in many important areas and controlling it. The Liberals are well on the way of removing all traces of a democratic Canada.

Mr. Martin sounded more dictatorial than ever when he suggested removing the notwithstanding clause from the federal level and having the courts rule on everything and looked very uncomfortable and it was clear he was after Stephen Harpers head rather than answer questions properly. Jack Layton for sure would make a good used car salesman but over emphasized his social policies. Mr. Duceppe of course is free to say anything he pleases as he does not have to represent Canada or really be accountable and for that reason I don't really know why he is even there. He looked uncomfortable and seemed his thoughts were not focused on the debate. I think Stephen Harper won hands down was cool and collective and presented his policies and arguments in a rational proffessional manner. Steve the moderator borrowed from TVO really made a difference in this debate.

eureka You wrote- " So did the Conservatives Leafless. Don't like your dislike of the Liberals cloud your judgement." Good point eureka and this provides further proof of how dysfunctional Canadian politics really is, if you know what I mean. But your previous post shed light on the fact how ridiculous this whole situation is. I mean how can any federal government support Quebec's since the Constitution since 1867 made Quebec subject to certain obligations concerning bilingualism and that is it must adapt it's laws in French and English and guarantee parliament, judges, litigants and parties to a legal proceeding with the use of the two languages. It's because of this Quebec could NOT become a unilingual French province even though Robert Bourassa in 1974 made French the official language of Quebec. So how can the federal government support this province concerning outright language discrimination against the English without forcing the province to become officially bilingual???

River god You wrote- " Mulroney and Bush after all are honest guys. The fact that they tripled their national debt wasn't stealing. Was it?" You have a short memory. When Trudeau inherited the government from Pearson he increased the national debt 10-fold. That wasn't stealing was it? Was it? I guess this must be something in common with PM's from QUEBEC.

River_God Your reference to God as related to Cristianity is rather condescending to Christianity and is in poor taste. If in fact you consider yourself some sort of god it should be represented with a lower case g and not a upper case G.

Big fight to-nite? I don't think so. It will be moderator controlled with more boring questions from Canadians pre-taped with the leaders not permitted to ask each other questions. I can hardly wait NOT.

eureka You wrote- " You do not understand the sins it has committed in it's obsession with ethnicity." I don't think Quebec can be the only one blamed with this as the Quebec wing Liberals and Liberal Party for years has supplied Quebec with a constant source of support both financial and political which in turn has transformed Quebec into a powerful political entity based on power and greed. The horse is now riding in the cart.

Liberal ideology has always been --Just because we walk on your face and steal your money and force you to speak a language you want nothing to do with doesn't mean we don't love you. Now, just give us a big group hug and pretend the Liberals are all good and that were all just little guys in Canada you know just like Jean boy and pretend all love Canada.

Bakunin You wrote- " I don't know if all provinces are officially bilingual, I know Quebec is officially French (80% vs. 8%) but what i know is that the city the most billingual is definatly and by far montreal" It's a fact and I'am surprised you don't know New Brunswick is the only offical bilingual province in Canada. Montreal always did have a strong English presence and to suggest that somehow this makes the city in a compulsory sense bilingual is false. Your Quebec government would like to see nothing better than for all English speakers to be banished from Montral like the thousands that were forced out by Bill-101 earlier. I would like to ask you a question concerning who originally paid for English hospitals and univeristy's in Montreal? Ottawa, Ontario is home to the French University of Ottawa and other university's offer French courses. But I would like to point out French primary and secondary schools especially in Ontario where numbers warrant, French are provided their own school boards and schools by all tax payers of the province not only French. You wrote- " Why does Canada continue to shoot itself in the foot trying to operate a country when surrounded by a sea of Americans and are only hampering their own economic success and making themselves dependent of the American" I guess that's because Americans never had a problem like Canada unifying their country. Canada and the U.S. were basically born from the same mother country Britain and political disagreement led to the creation of the U.S. Canada was very successful concerning trade relations with the U.S. and if you really examine the situation Bakunnin you will see Canada is unable to compete internationally in the way of trade for many reasons to create trade with other foreign countries in a successful manner. Besides the U.S. contrary to your belief is the best ally any country in the world could ask for. As far as I am concerned U.S. influence creates a tremendous advantage in many areas. You wrote- " Quebecers working hard to keep their identity which is probably more different than the Canadian -American idenity." And what idenity is that Bakunin? Quebecers live no differently than anywhere else in Canada and are basically granted the right to use your French language from Canadians who fund all the bills to allow you to do that. Your mother country France and the 'Treaty of Paris' left NO French rights on the North American continent. You have no nation and never did.

Bakunin You wrote- " I think it's sad so many ppl pick up on Quebec when practically on English provinces successfully assimilated their French population and simply failed (probably on purpose) to give them any support and 1/10 of the services English speakers could get in Quebec" Well, the fact of the matter is in Canada both langauges are NOT equal and symmetrical. This statement alone blows away everything you said in your post as false concerning language and assimilation concerning English provinces. Outside of Quebec French is a minority spoken language. Even IN Quebec French is still the minority language since Quebec being part of confederation calculations must be based on all of Canada. Quebec has been helped tremendously by the federal government of Canada and Canadian tax-payers and would be fair to say without this constant source of help Quebec would simply not exist as a productive province. It should be noted Quebec is the only province to declare it's French language as 'officially French' and should be noted that nowhere in Quebec is an policy concerning bilingualism. What the federal government did with official languages that is creating official bilingualism within it's federal entities can be viewed as outright linguistic discrimination since this policy was unilaterally implemented WITHOUT the consent of Canadian citizen's. Quebec's language Bill-101 or otherwise known as it's French Charter also discriminates aginst English speakers in Quebec. There is no ofiicial bilingualism in any Canadian province except one being New Brunswick. But even at that in Ontario an English province for instance has always boasted provincial French language policy and is applicable 'where numbers warrant'. In the City of Ottawa, Ontario does in fact have a French bilingual policy with all major hospitals proving bilingual content which includes the newly expanded Montfort hospital which is a teaching hospital that Ontario tax payers fund which BTW not only trains French doctors in Ontario but also trains French doctors from Quebec. Ontario hospitals also open their doors to MANY Quebec residents event though Quebec excludes Ontario residents and is the only province in Canada that does not pay medical procedures at a lower rate than other hospitals concerning Quebec residents who flood Ontario hospitals. And then we have schooling with Ontario residents funding the bill to create French schools with their very own public funded scholl boards as well as their own English school system. But even with this francophone groups are pushing for Ontario to become officially bilingual even though their numbers are only represented by a single digit and back in Quebec draconian undemocratic language policies are alive and well. The one question I have is why does Quebec continue to shoot itself in the foot trying to operate a province exclusively in French when surrounded by a sea of English and are only hampering their own economic success and making themself dependent on Canadian tax payer welfare? Correction- Quebec in fact pays less for medical procedures than other provinces in Canada.

BubberMiley We already know our current government is corrupt. Your the guy that believes and relies on polls and any poll will tell you all other parties outside of the Conservatives and Liberals have virtually very little chance or no chance of forming the next government. A debate is suppose to or should identify differences concerning realistic issues that particular party harbours as an election platform and separate the B.S from achievable goals and expectations of that particular party as compared to the other. It should include a civilized debate concerning failed goals, broken promises, scandals, but most of all in my opinion is also debating the question concerning the increasing lack of democratic political participation concerning major issues available to Canadians and identify if in fact our political system is indeed broken, what steps are necessary to ensure Canadian citizens are democratically represented. I will not accept the fact that a parliamentry democracy excludes a process to include Canadians. A debate is not electioneering and if you want to know what a certain party offers go to their website or meet their local candidate. Parties with little or no chance of forming the next government only bog down the debate which could include exaggerated rhetoric at the expense of legitimate leaders not debating important goverance issue's as there is only so much time available for what should be an important event.

Chronic You wrote- " Wouldn't you at least like to see the leader of the Green Party have a chance to say his peace" NO! This is a leaders debate concerning federal political party leaders who have a realistic chance of forming the next government. Including parties from long shot leaders like the NDP, Bloc, Geen Parties is a waste of time and could include rabble-rousing rhetoric that removes the importance of a debate and turns it into a plain electioneering event. And who the hell wants that.

Speaker does not realize the artificial self imposed importance of the French language in Quebec produces nothing in it's inability to cut the economic cheese with out being financially padded by the ROC. What does this really say about Quebec and it's peference to discriminate against English speakers in Quebec utilizing English the major working language of Canada and Noth America and the language that is the international language of the world. And what does this say about the Liberals who have been the political party who have been most active to say the least, to promote this linguistic discrimination into the federal government and even out of federal jurisdiction into the jurisdiction of English majority provinces. I always thought bilingualism was suppose to be free flowing, i.e.- I become bilingual for what you have to offer me if I choose and you become bilingual for what I have to offer you if you choose.

tml12 Re: " Now they are French only... how do the French think we feel" You are correct in making this statement and this only magnifies to show the arrogance and self righteousness of Quebec's provincial government to show such a disregard and disrespect for the majority language of Canada, English. I could understand Quebec's language positon in a more realistic light if they were fully self sufficient but unfortunately they are not and depend on the Canadian taxpayer for their survival. To discriminate this way against the majority language of Canada and of North America and is in fact somewhat comical as this situation would not survive anywhere in the world without serious consequences except in this politically induced undemocratic republic Canada.

Black Dog You wrote- " Proof. " The majority of jobs in Ottawa, Ontario for instance concerning private buisness do require fluency in both official languages or in other words you must be bilingual even though the province of Ontario is not officially bilingual. This is because private buisness is following the federal example concerning bilingualism and simply do not want to miss out on any type of buisness by francophones in the Ottawa area many who refuse to speak English even though they can. There have been reports for years in this area of English speaking residents of Ottawa being forced to move to other cities in Canada that do not display this type of outright discrimination concerning the avaiability of English speaking jobs in their own majority English province. English Speaking federal employees also have lost jobs to make room concerning the federal francophone invasion from the mid-sixties onward with many older senior federal employees to-day being squeezed out by bilingualism since their French learning capabilities are limited. Other cities in Ontario are begining to see this bilingual movement including Toronto. The only proof I can give you is to experience this situation yourself, family or your friends to try to gain employment in English only in a city like Ottawa. But I heard the federal government is expanding francophone positons to many Canadian cities where as it will not be long before these francophone employees will be demanding services in French like they have done in Ontario even having public tax money support their own French school boards and schools that they acheived with their Ontario French language services act.

The Constitution of Canada has enshrined English and French as Canada's official languages since 1982, but this declaration is only valid for federal government and it's divisions. The ten provinces and three territories of Canada are free to grant English or French the status of an official language, or not to do so. Since Canada was created since 1867, the Constitution has made Quebec subject to certain obligations. It must adopt it's laws in French and English and guarantee parliament, judges litigants and parties to a legal proceeding with the use of the two official languages. But we all know what happened when the Liberal Quebec government of Robert Bourassa in 1974 made French the official language of Quebec and Bill-101 or the French Charter that allows Quebec to almost function as a unilingual French province. Which I might add included the blessing of the federal government who made bilingualism mandatory in the federal public service with discriminatory aspects with a bilingual mandate that greatly exceeds the original concept of bilingualism in the federal public service. This federal concept of bilingualism has crept into majority English speaking provinces primarily Ontario removing job opputunities from not only the federal public service but from private employeers who discriminate against the majority English by demanding of employees fluency in both official languages. I must ask you a simple question, why are majority English provinces so gutless to demand that their provincial premiers obtain the status as a officially English speaking province, like what Quebec has done. Why should our sons and daughters be deprived of work in their own majority English province because of employers who are allowed to discriminate aginst our sons and daughters based on a discriminatory federal language policy that has no legal weight since the only province in Canada that is officially bilingual is New Brunswick.

The Honest Politician Link- Ignore! What's your point of view?

FTA Since the repatriation of the Charter there have been ten formal ammendments to the Constitution of Canada and for the most part these ten ammendments dealt with religion and linguistics rulings where a federal government should not intervene. I don't imagine the BNA Act was ever designated to include linguistic legislation and legislation pertaining to religion as this country was built on those very aspects. SSM was made possible with the implementation of Bill C-33 into the Canadian Human Rights Act to include 'sexual orientation'. Federal decissions it appears were based on this Bill C-33 and not the BNA Act. It should be noted the concept of language rights was written into the Constitution to create a legal balance between two linguistic communities thus to try to ensure social order but clearly failed as Quebec to this day still advocates separation. It is also clear the government of this country continues to meddle in linguistic waters that are not federal concern. I think there are limits to the absolute waste of taxpayers dollars.

Maybe under the Liberal way (after the Libs have handed out all federal powers)of achieving a sense of national staus is to rename Canada so all provinces will be able to declare loyality to their respective provinces rather than pretend there is a strong sense of Canadian nationalism. A new name that comes to mind is 'United Provinces of America'. This way there would be no need for a federal government at all and provinces would co-operate with each other and our trading partners utilizing a buisness realtionship only.

In Winnipeg Paul Martin said " Stephen Harpers' plan for a greater role for provincial governments within Confederation shows his contempt and disregard for a strong united Canada." Notice how Mr. Martin subsituted the word Confederation rather than use the word Canada. Mr. Martin went on to say " Voters will choose between one or two people as prime minister on Jan. 23- someone who sees Canada as a success or Mr. Harper, who speaks of how our country comes up short in his eyes." Mr. Martin then reached back to a 1994 speech-- then a Reform Party MP--delivered and said it illustrates Mr. Harper feels it is "secondary" if Canada is led by a single national government or splinters into several governments. " Whether Canada ends up as one national government or two national governments, or several national governments or some other kind of arrangement , is quite frankly secondary in my opinion," Mr. Harper is quooted as saying. The speech goes on to advocate "less government"- a rallying cry of the Reform party and it's successor parties. Mr. Martin said " Well, it's never been secondary in my opinion." " One Canada not two, not several. One national government to unite us all as Canadians. One national government to speak for us as Canadians. One prime minister to represent us as Canadians." Meanwhile back in Montreal Gilles Duceppe boasted " We are a positive people." " We have faith in Quebec's future and we address our message to the intelligence of the people." It's to bad Martin has to go back to an ancient speach to try to pick apart the Conservatives. Mr. Martin speaks of nationalism but does not refer to Canada as being national or nationalistic. Nation= A community of people of mainly common descent, history, language, etc. forming a State or inhabiting a territory. Obviously Mr. Martin is not talking about a nation but a LIBERAL KINGDOM with Mr. Martin as KING spending YOUR MONEY the way a LIBERAL KING sees fit. This is sad , very sad. Excerpts taken from the Ottawa Citizen Wed., Jan.4/2006. "Tories show for united Canada:PM"and "Bloc to use only positive ads"

scriblett You wrote- " I don't think so" Think about what your saying for a moment. If these murdering punks were raised properly from childhood with morals and values instilled with Christianity, do you actually think they would possess the same drive to murder other human beings? Uncivilized, unprincipled, secularists who worship things that bring them power and wealth and have learned the easy way to achieve their goals by simply pulling the trigger since the Liberals have removed all obstacles from helping to prevent this. The Liberals paved the way and are encouraging this type of Canadian society and then stare back at society with mouths open, speechless when their "vision" of fair, equal society begins to crumble and cannot understand why. Screaming on the internet that another human being has been shot in Toronto won't accomplish a damn thing and is just as bad as Liberal policies have greatly contributed to this situation. Voting Conservative will be the only way to help reverse this situation of Liberal created social decay.

scriblett Shouldn't a topic of this nature be under Morals and Religion as both politicians and police appear to be totally useless. Maybe God can help.

scriblett You wrote: " It is no longer possible to have anything but Liberal governments as the process has been hijacked." The Liberal stranglehold on Canadian politics has been known for years. We know we need electoral reform but nobody is doing much about anything and the stumbling block again appears to be Quebec who would loose out with their own little stanglehold preventing any type of change concerning proportional representation.

crazymf Great. Have another eggnog and see what else you can come up with!

FTA You wrote- " And whether or not we need a new government (I agree we do) has nothing to do whether or not the charter ought to stay or go." The Liberals are the originators of the Charter without the consent of individual Canadians and have introduced and promoted official bilingualism with sections pertaining to equality rights, official languages of Canada, minority language educational rights, fundamental freedoms, democratic rights, mobility rights and legal rights. Are you telling me that these rights in the hands of a federal government cannot be played according to favourtism, votes or political interest thus changing the face of a country vs. in the hands of a provincial government who can no way achieve the same effect. Actually rights in the hands of a provincial government could produce a more desirable result with Quebec or any other province concerning language legislation, bilingualism, mobility rights, minority language education and perhaps bits and pieces from the entire Charter. Look at the SSM issue as the Liberal originally agreed marriage was between a man and a woman. The sudden shift in reasoning towards favouring the homosexual view is votes and votes secularist would also give to the Liberals in supporting this issue. I think the federal government should stay out of rights and freedoms and leave it soley a provincial interest where provinces have a chance to fight back against federal rulings that are not in there interest. Provincial human rights laws are all that is required but in my opinion the Charter must be re-written as in it's present state leaves to much power to be allocated to a single province namely Quebec.