Dougie93

Anyone can look at what I said and see that it say "Canada operates in space" and not "Canada has a space program", so not sure why you are needlessly belaboring the point, other than stupidity, as what other reason could there be? Even the most ignorant of the unwashed masses should be able to grasp that Canada goes to space on the back of the American space program, while not actually running a Canadian space program parallel to. The Canadian Space Agency is not a space program, it's an agency charged with sending Canada to space on the back of the American space program, otherwise known as NASA. I mean, duh.

So what?

There is no solution within the structure of the Confederation you are in now, because all this dysfunction is inherent to the structure of it. The solution is to devolve and break the big confederated Fake Country down into its component regions which are de facto countries, and just go to a looser association where we would all be healthier wealthier and wise. These devolved Dominions would have the same relationship with each other as Australia and New Zealand have, rather than all being forced together into dysfunction by Ottawa.

You invoked Conservative when you injected the caveat "Real", which is an inherent and glaring fallacy. A conservative position vis a vis supporting the military is to take the Queen's Schilling and join the military, talking a big game about the military while declining to serve in preference of letting others do it, is liberalism. So in fact the issue here would be that you to learn the difference between fallacious and logically supported.

Nothing more than "Real Conservative" virtue signalling.

And if you want to know where this Canadian dogma of soldier = victim comes from, it comes from the Battle of the Somme in the First World War, where the British broke their Empire against the German defences, resulting in the world we live in today, in the wake of what was actually a War of British Hegemonic Succession, succession from the British Empire to the American Empire of Liberty, Canada flipping from British Colony to American colony therein. Before the Battle of The Somme catastrophe, Canadians were amongst the most gung-ho of the gung-ho for war on behalf of the British Crown, in the entire Empire. That is why the Canadian Expeditionary Force fought so valiantly and became the elite of the British Army, because the Canadians prior to the Somme, were more British than the British themselves, because of the proximity of the looming menace of the American republic, the Somme broke that and made it go in the opposite direction, to where we are now, in the Empire of Liberty, which is not Canada's job to defend, but rather the Americans job to defend, with Canada never going adventuring a' Somme again.

Prima facie, if you can't see it, not sure what I can do to help you, because, no offence, but from where I'm sitting, to deny the obvious reality of it, would be delusional. In terms of the "support" of Canadians for the military, it is entirely rhetorical, because they say one thing and then vote exactly in the opposite direction. I would submit, that is because the Canadian Public does not view the Canadian Forces are their servants, but rather the servants of the Americans, but also they have been indoctrinated by the socialist leftist dogma to view armed forces not as proud warriors but rather hapless victims and dupes of imperialism, so they don't say the empty things they say about the military because they really care about national security, rather, they say it because they feel sorry for us, as victims. Or rather they feel sorry for you, because I am (ret.) now And if you think the NSPS procurement boondoggle is really going to be aloud to cost anywhere near $60 billion delivering anywhere near the number of ships contracted, before they trim it back and/or cancel it and/or it simply collapses under its own weight and fails to launch, sorry, but again, I think you're delusional.

Or to dumb it down for the unwashed masses; The American space program is a civilian run international program and not conducted at the highest levels of national security secrecy, Polar under ice operations is the biggest of the big leagues at 15 minutes notice to launch on warning, where you need to have your big boy pants on, and Canada, as an infantilized Fake Country pseudo colony, not only never puts its big boy pants on, but rather doesn't even have any big boy pants at all to put on, even if it was ever inclined to want big boy pants, which it doesn't. There was a brief moment when the Mulroney Government tried to lead the Canadian public to put their big boy pants on for polar under ice operations by SSN in the big leagues and at the time the Americans and British were willing to accept Canada into the fold, however the Canadian electorate shot Mulroney down on that, hard, "No big boy pants for us, that's the American's job!", as you would expect pseudo colonists of the United States to say. In the ensuing years Canada has become ever more infantilized to the point where the Americans and British would never invite us into the fold now.

I will say however, to the forum writ large, that while Canada is able to piggyback its space operations unto the American space program, polar under ice operations in the face of Russian nuclear submarines falls within the confines of the United States - United Kingdom Joint Strategic Deterrent, which Canada is not privy too, as neither the United States nor the United Kingdom would trust the Government of Canada to be, at that ultimate level of secrecy.

As this post is entirely fallacious and devoid of any cogent argument or even point, seeing that I never said Canada had a space program I merely said Canada operates in space (the space program therein is the Americans space program), I will simply stand by my previous posts and await any good faith comments, assertions or arguments in the meantime. ttfn

The answer to your question is simple; the Government, as all Government's of Canada have since Diefenbaker, are in fact bending to the will of the electorate, in that, there are simply no votes for them on the defence file, other than for regional vote buying by military pork barelling procurement and infrastructure boondoggle.

To be clear, as an enlisted service member and/or commissioned officer of Her Majesty's Canadian Armed Forces, you do not swear nor are you bound, to any particular allegiance to the Canadian public, your oath of service unto death as necessary under contract of unlimited liability, is entirely to the Commander-in-Chief, up to and including use of military force as necessary against the Canadian public, under order in council for war measures by the Emergencies Act, in aid to the civil power, the civil power being HM and not the squishy "Canadians" protesting in the streets.

Or again, to dumb it down for the unwashed masses; Space is simple, because the medium of space is a stable vacuum, which is the simplest thing in the universe in fact Submarines is complex, because the medium of inner space is water, which is exponentially more complex than the vacuum of outer space. All you have to do to operate in space, is defeat the earths gravity to get there, once you're there, it's easy, and you can just free fall there indefinitely. And Canada does operate in space, because unlike polar under ice submarine operations, space is affordable for the Government of Canada, because as I said, space is comparatively cheap and easy.

Well since you are apparently unaware that submarines are in fact more complex and expensive than spaceships, and that inner space, which simply means "undersea" by the way, is an exponentially more complex and dangerous realm than outer space, outer space being a comparatively benign vacuum and operations there based entirely on parabolic trajectory in free fall therein, which is inherently and mathematically simple, it is rather difficult to discuss the matter on your terms, without dumbing things down, as you are completely ill informed on the matter and making fallacious and nonsensical assertions as a result. /shrugs

False assertion. The protestors are tangential. The Supreme Court ruled that the indigenous do have an inherent veto on development on their hereditary lands, when the Supreme Court awarded full legal title and jurisdiction over those lands to them in 1997. Then Canada and British Columbia never reacted to that judgement and instead have simply ignored the native since 1997, and now that is coming back to haunt them because the SCC ruling is still in force and has been in force the whole time, as the de jure law of the land, which the government must obey. Thus, Canada is left with two essential options. Negotiate with the native monarchies as equals, our Queen negotiates with their kings. Or Use force and wage an illegal aggressive war against them therein, by invading their sovereign countries without legal mandate. Which by the way, is how the British Empire conducted itself, and how Canada also conducts itself as a zombie Confederation of the British Empire limping along in utter dysfunction as a de facto failed state which is simply being propped up by the Americans.

Non sequitur The Province of British Columbia is neither here nor there because they are not the ones blocking the pipeline, because as you say; they can't. But that is again, non sequitur to my assertion which is; the SCC says the natives can. Not as individuals, but as in effect kingdoms, and kingdoms don't need charter rights, kingdoms have the rights of a sovereign, so no section 33 issue here, as sovereigns are not subject to the section 33 of a foreign country, and they have the SCC hammer backing them up, so there's nothing the government can legally do here, except negotiate with them as equals. Our Queen negotiating with their kings, de facto and de jure.

Still failing to grasp the nature of the issue. This is not a charter rights issue. The issue is that in 1997 the SCC ruled that the natives were the legal title holders of their hereditary territories and associated monarchies. It's not a rights issue, it's a title issue, which neither Canada nor British Columbia have dealt with in the years since 1997, none the less it is a SCC ruling and thus the constitutional law of the land, and again, no, section 33 could not be invoked in any way in the face of it, because this judgement is not charter related, in that, land title is a collective law not an individual right. That is to say, Canada is not being blocked here by individual natives but rather native constitutional monarchies unto themselves which the SCC has ruled have jurisdiction over their land, with the legal authority of de facto countries. Thus, the Notwithstanding Clause does not apply. As the matter was settled by the SCC in 1997, even if some dingbats try to bring a charter challenge, the courts ultimately would decline to re-litigate the already litigated. Or to dumb it down; SCC; "we already ruled on this issue, see; judgement rendered Dingbats "wanh, wanh" SCC "piss off"

Well, as per my post, operating under the ice is a special operation requiring a capacity which is at this juncture only within the purview of major military powers, which Canada cannot, will never be and should not aspire to be. In terms of elitism, I am only in opposition to the Urbane Eastern Liberal Elites, in general I prize all things elite, and do indeed aspire to be elite in how I conduct myself, so, mea culpa I suppose. I am, after all, a monarchist living in a monarchy, which is the ultimate elitist paradigm. /shrugs

Truly an Orwellian assertion.

Merely trying to provide as concise an answer as I could with regards to debunking the myth that Canada would, could or should aspire to polar under ice operations with the Americans and British against the Russian, as they call them; "Nuclear Powered Strategic Ballistic Missile Carrying Heavy Submarine Cruisers" designed and built to use the polar icecap as a protected bastion to position themselves to strike the CONUS as they have been doing since the 1970's. Please bear with me, as I am used to forums which incite a far higher standard of intellectual rigour than this forum seemingly does, I will endeavor in future to dumb down my answers to accommodate the lower standards here. Cheers

While due process and the rule of law are of cornerstones of the modern liberal state (modern as of 1688 that is), this is what the military would refer as a "non-kinetic" war in progress where the Chinese are attempting to use Canada as a fifth column against the United States and where the United States is reacting by trying to make it increasingly difficult for Canada to subjugate itself to the Chinese, in essence, due to Canada being attached to the United States, no, we may not become clients of the Chinese in their eyes, but due to the Liberal Party of Canada's delusion about Canada being able to transfer ourselves from being a colony of United States to being a colony of the Peoples Communist Party of China we are now being rendered into a security threat to Americans, and so now the Americans are reacting with increasing alarm and taking increasingly concrete actions thereto (steel/aluminum tariffs, deliberately bypassing Ottawa and having Meng arrested with informing them, etc)

As far as I know, all four subs are fully operational now, the torpedo tubes have all been switched over to the American ones with the connectors for the Mk.48 Mod 7 CBASS AdCap II heavyweight homing torpedoes, which are the latest version being used by the USA, Canada, Australia, and the Netherlands. They're all in the process of getting upgraded to the American AN/BQQ-10 SONAR as well, at least one of them has it already, I think it's the Windsor (SSK 877) In terms of mines, I don't think they need the connectors. I don't think Canada has bought any, but in the event of war Canada would have access to NATO stockpiles and pretty sure the mines NATO uses work with any NATO STANAG 21 inch torpedo tubes, such as the Mk. 60 CapTor encapsulated torpedo mine which lays a tethered torpedo smart mine which lies in wait for programmed acoustic signatures of ships it is intended to sink, then releases the torpedo which homes in on them. It's not the mission of these Canadian subs to go up under the arctic and the arctic is not the imperative that the government makes it out to be, the arctic is just trying to find make work for the military up there, but Canada is not actually going to sink anybody else's submarines up there, so that's not really important. The only reason to go up under the polar ice is the Russian Delta IV Delphin and one remaining Akula (Typhoon) SSBN's which are designed and built to go up under the ice and hide, then pop up through to launch their ballistic missiles, which, chasing those things down under the arctic ice is way out of the RCN's league. Only the Americans, the British, and the French can do that, and only the Americans and the British are really expert at it. Although not as expert as the Soviets/Russians, the Soviets were the first to go up there under the ice to hide, secretly, and then the Americans discovered they were doing it and have been trying to counter it ever since. Reason being, they can track the Russian SSBN's pretty easily in open waters, but under the ice it's hard to track anything, under the ice is where the Russians can shake the American submarines tailing them, and they can't be gotten at by any other means under the ice, which is why the Soviets went up there and the Russians still do with the Soviet built SSBN's which they have left in their inventory That is the most challenging operating environment on earth for submarines, so that takes more than just having subs that can go under ice, either nuclear or AIP, that requires the institutional knowledge and experience built up over years with the unbroken lines of experienced officers and ratings which have been doing it continuously for decades, so that's not a realistic capability for DND to try to acquire in the context of the slice of the budget which would be allotted to submarine operations. Doing submarine operations under the polar icecap is like a space program, it's just an inner space program rather than an outer space program. Those in the general public who cling to the pipe dream of somehow rebuilding the already collapsed for all intents and purposes warfighting capability of the CAF will say "just get subs that go under the ice", but even if you could rebuild the CAF, going up under the ice is like operating on another planet, it's a harsh realm up there when you are under the ice rather than above it, so it's totally unrealistic and certainly the RCN has no such delusions that they would have the money for that. The RCN is desperately trying to hold on to these four renovated submarines, extremely unlikely to say the least that the Government and Public are going to be up for buying submarines ever again after this typically shambolic Liberal Party of Canada Chretienite procurement disaster, with added CBC/NDP led smear campaign on top just to finish it off, so these are looking like they will be the last submarines the RCN ever operates. Anyways, point being, any submarine is a strategic weapon because it can attack shipping lanes and maritime approaches by stealth, for example the RN basically won the Falkland Islands War with HMS Conqueror sinking the ARA Belgrano, because after that the Argentine Navy fled the field and despite setbacks it was pretty much an inexorable process towards Argentine defeat, because without their navy the British pretty much encircled them. That's what I mean by strategic, tactics win battles, operations run campaigns, but strategic weapons can win wars in one fell swoop. It's actually the torpedoes what make them so dangerous, and the ones that Canada bought, the reason they changed the torpedo tubes to the American tubes, are state of the art. Basically, even as the military is collapsing writ large as a warfighting outfit, the senior brass have always had champagne tastes on a beer budget, and the military is trying to rebuild itself desperately as the Government of Canada tries to crush it, so they still buy state of the art equipment when they can get there hands on it, and that kit is sprinkled around throughout with the equipment which is mostly rusted out, tho not in sufficient quantities to actually fight a war in the logistical sense. Like the Globemaster III's for example, those are 5 amazing pieces of kit, in an otherwise pathetically dilapidated air force overall. Champagne tastes on a beer budget by the way, is where the majority of the budget goes, new equipment is only a priority after being the best paid, best fed, best quartered and best serviced personnel, not only in NATO, but in the world, it was pretty damn cushy when I was in, even during the so called Decade of Darkness 90's, the Canadian taxpayer was berry berry goo to me in terms of lifestyle on base, it was high on the hog, we just had crappy kit and not enough and no logistics tails for actually fighting any wars above the tactical level. When Americans come up to Canadian bases, they are in awe of how cushy it is, when Canadians go down to their bases, like Fort Knox for example, Fort Knox is a filthy shithole by Canadian Army standards. Camp Petawawa is actually quite lovely, nestled on the banks of the Ottawa in the woods. I mean, we were terrorized and tortured there in terms of hard training, but it's a fabulous piece of land, and when you're not at work it's a recreational paradise.

While I am a classically liberal limited government conservative and so an anathema to the so called Conservative Party of Canada, I will cop to being a filthy profit pig, I mean, I'm retired, and I don't want to go back to working for da Man, so I will scarf up any profit I can where and when I can, by any legal means available.

Liberals are corrupt to the bone, because they have to do what they have to do to try to keep their Confederation project going, in their minds, saving the Confederation justifies all their crimes, so while the vast majority of liberals are decent having been raised in the so called "civil society", when they internalize the narrative of the Liberal Party of Canada as indistinguishable from themselves as a free thinking autonomous individual, then they are no longer decent, by default, because succumbing to that level of deep indoctrination to the imperatives of the state, is the stuff totalitarianism is made of.

That's called moral dependence, when a child has been so bubble raised that they cannot handle any sort of opposition to them whatsoever, all opposition is perceived and asserted as an attack, resulting in them running to an ostensible authority figure to stamp out their "opressor" That's not even Millennial behavior, that's like post Millennial iGen behavior. You can't be that young, are you?