Goddess

I just figured out how to quote on my phone. Yay, me! I would absolutely give evidence. There are groups of ex's all over the world working actively on this. We are actually a pretty tight community and very supportive of each other. When I was working on the recovery board, I often took phone calls in the middle of the night from people all over the world needing helpand advice on the best way to get out. Steven Hassan works with us a lot. Rampant and unreported pedophilia and their policies of protecting pedos is what is bringing them to the attention of many governments now. They are a smaller group, about 8 million or so worldwide with another 10 million who are involved but classified as "inactive" but supportive. If it was bigger, there would be more attention. They are very secretive as well, and have a large legal body that helps them fight in the courts. A few years ago, a young woman in California was the first to win a legal victory against them to the tune of 28 million $$. Most victims take the "hush money" because they are quite successful in their legal wrangling and delaying trials and using religious freedom to their advantage.

I think it gets murky when religious freedom is involved. My cult is being investigated in many other countries - the UK and Australia both included it in Royal Commission investigations and the results were not good for the cult. Recommendations have been made regarding revoking their charitable status, etc. Nothing happening in Canada and the US yet.

Big Guy, I haven't had a chance to see that documentary but it's on my to-do list. My experience being born and raised and living 40 years of my life in a cult, getting out with only my children and serving on a recovery forum for others who wanted to get out, is that no one leaves until they are ready. Sometimes it takes something to happen to them personally to find the strength to leave. For me, when I was expected to shun my children, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Thank you for clarifying your views for me, Dialamah. It seemed like you are a "problem for every solution" type of person. And I don't agree with doing nothing simply because we don't know what to do. There will be women who fall through the cracks and that is very unfortunate. But the thing I like about this law is that police don't need to have the woman's consent or complaint to file charges. If it helps a majority and let's men know this is illegal then, great. Although it doesn't mention Muslims specifically, I suspect this law was put in the books to deal with the problem. Because they aren't just "getting it" by observing western culture, as has been suggested many times here.

Dialamah, I think this law in the UK is a good start. It beats sitting back and doing nothing about it. Muslims need to know clearly and definitely that this treatment of women is wrong and will not be tolerated in our country. How do they learn this when we continue to do nothing? Islam is not going to have any kind of reformation. And even if it did, westerners are not going to be able to initiate that reform. Unfortunately Muslim women are going to have to step up and Yes, there will be blood shed. I don't think we empower women by just sitting back and saying, "Oh, it's your religion/culture? Well okay then, keep doing what you're doing." If I was a Muslim woman who wanted out, what empowerment to do so would I feel from a country that basically has 2 sets of laws? One for Western women that makes coercive control illegal and one for Muslims where it is allowed? I don't understand your thinking that allowing this behaviour in Canada just because it's their religion/culture is going to help these women at all.

http://www.weneedtotalkaboutislam.com/single-post/2016/04/06/Coercive-and-controlling-behaviour-Are-UK-legal-changes-good-for-Muslim-women Maybe the UK is onto something here??

I think the difference between Muslims and Christians is that Christians are told to WAIT for Jesus to do the killing. Muslims are instructed to do the killing themselves. This is what makes them more dangerous.

** sigh ** You certainly love moving the goalposts...... Since Altai didn't comment on her personal conversion but was making a general statement, I also didn't commnet on her personal situation. Also, as I'm new here, I haven't read every thread on here. So if she commented somewhere about her personal situation, I am unaware. Nor does the fact that she converted have anything at all to do with her statement above.

BINGO! Now think about that for a little while.....

I don't believe the 99% thing either...... http://www.nationalreview.com/article/428146/

I don't expect "complete" unity, I don't believe I ever said that. (?) However, in respect to the violent interpretations of the Koran, yes.....I would expect complete unity. That is a big thing to me, and to the world right now. I would also expect that in a matter this HUGE (whether to kill all non-Muslims or not), a religion that claims to be perfect would not be having problems like they are right now. Obviously there is no unity in the interpretations (even in minor matters), so what are the consequences of being a rogue Muslim? How do they deal with that?

Coolio. Thanks! That is what I wanted to see. Why is this not taught in mainstream Islam? If someone deviates from these teachings, what are the consequences? (The cult I was in was VERY fanatical about maintaining unity. You could not disagree with any teaching, no matter how minor, or you were kicked out and shunned for life). I'm sorry if my questions sound snarky, they are asked in genuineness. I would really like to know.

When I click "Read the Letter" it just has a list of statements with no sources. I am well aware of the differences in Christian beliefs but we are talking about Muslim beliefs so I didn't address unity in Christian teachings. Questioning this indicates to you that my mind is closed?

The letter to bagdahdi..... ^^^ Where is the proof from the Koran? ^^^ Anyone can make those statements, "This is forbidden" or "That is forbidden". Where are the textual proofs? I can't imagine ISIS or any Muslim would just read that list and agree to it without proofs. The reason I was asking about what is taught in the mosques is because I wanted to know why there is no unity in Muslim beliefs. Are they not all taught the same thing?

You previously said that "farmers" is the correct translation of "kafirs" but only in some verses. So when the directive is given to "annihilate kafirs"......who are you supposed to annihilate? That is my question. If it's not farmers, then who is it? If a Muslim chooses to interpret that as "annihilate farmers" is he free to interpret it that way? Is he shown the proper people to annihilate? If he chooses to interpret it as "annihilate non-Muslims" is he free to interpret it that way? What direction is given in the mosques as to which people to annihilate?

I understand your interpretation, yes. So...the direction to "annihilate kafirs" means.....??

You did write this, did you not?

I don't want to speak for Dog, but maybe he is not "choosing" the violent interpretation. It is the violent interpretation that is causing so many problems. So yes, we "kafirs" are much more concerned about the violent interpretations than we are with the Non-violent interpretations. When we question a verse that says to "annihilate Kafirs" and are told by a Muslim that "kafirs" refers to farmers.......we're not idiots. We know that doesn't mean farmers.

"6:45: So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds" Boy, they really hate farmers. I had no idea.

So, when Muslims are instructed, "3:28: Believers should not take Kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah's protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear him for all will return to him."................this is talking about farmers? You can't make friends with farmers? Why not?

(Lots of "appeal to ridicule" in this thread.....that's disappointing) Islam is not just a religion. It is also a political ideology. Anything done religiously has a political motive. Political Islam is what should be our concern, not their religion. Who cares how a Muslim worships? We need to become familiar with Sharia law. The vast majority of Muslims want it. They are gradually implementing it all over the world, including here. 64% of it is devoted to Kafirs (non-Muslims) - how to deal with us, how to get us to submit, how to subjugate us. Having them take a "citizenship test" or whatever is pointless, I think. They KNOW we have different values then they do. They don't care about our values. They just keep chipping away at them, demanding more and more Sharia law be implemented. Do any who are supporters of this have a line that should not be crossed for it's implementation? Where exactly do we say, "No more". And how do we do that, after we have caved in to each and every other demand they make? I don't know why we think we are special in Canada and that what is happening over there will not happen here?

When I lived in the US, I was surprised to experience "cultural shock" to a certain extent. It was hard to put my finger on it, but it was there....they just "think" differently than we do on a lot of things. I missed Canada very much. I travelled back at one point to go to the Grey Cup and I cried when "O Canada" was played.

Also, I don't believe any amount of education or evidence can make a man (or woman) give up cherished religious beliefs until they are ready.

I haven't given much thought until recently about how to handle this in Canada. It's only since France has taken a stand that I have researched their issues with the Muslim population, which go back many years. I "get" what you are saying about not making a law that would make it more difficult for women to come forward. Definitely an issue. But how do we educate the men that this is not allowed in Canada? We can't allow Muslim men to dot his to women in this country. How do the women feel when they finally get to a "free" country and it supports their husbands/family in abusing them? And where are the support networks for women? They didn't work well for Aqsa Parvez.

Dialamah, I was born and raised and lived most of my life in a religion where women were second-class and taught to "know their place". I was able to get out, with my children,and without support of any kind. I left with no money, no job, no friends, no family. I well know how hard it would be for a woman to take a stand against this kind of abuse. And I understand why some do not have the strength to do it. Support networks would be key. But I don't believe changing our laws to normalize their abuse of women would be helpful to these women. Nor to the rest of women in Canada.