Goddess

You may want to check out the "mathematical" possibilities, if you are allowed to. It makes me sad to hear you say so emphatically that this is "impossible". So young for such a closed mind and no desire to find out the answers, content with getting your science and biology information from a religious book written over a thousand years ago. You remind me of a 40 year old man who recently told me that the proof that we were created by God is the "fact" that men have one less rib than women. I'm not even kidding.

Many things, (in the past and before modern advances in science) that people didn't understand the "why" about were attributed to supernatural causes. As science discovers new things, those supernatural explanations have all been replaced with concrete scientific explanations. Do you think that perhaps the things we still don't understand about the universe and life, might one day also be explained scientifically? I will give you an example of what I mean: My grandmother was very religious and sometimes experienced what she concluded were "demon attacks" at night. Her religion had taught her that she possibly had bought a used item that had a demon attached to it. So she would immediately get rid of anything she had recently bought. When I became an adult, I also experienced these same "demon attacks". Fortunately, I had a friend who suffered from SLEEP PARALYSIS (You can look that up if you wish, it is quite scary) so the first time it happened to me, I understood right away that there was nothing supernatural happening to me. As man evolves and gains more understanding, we will eventually drop all these childish explanations. But it seems to me that Islam is generations behind the rest of the world in this regard.

This is changing rapidly. I have a friend who is a gnostic bishop and she works closely with the Catholic Church and is accepted by them very nicely.

Thank you. I was just checking to see if I had missed something major in History class.....

I'm not sure honoring the death of someone whom many believe sacrificed himself for the benefit of all mankind is quite the same..... Everything that critics say they don't like about Christianity, from slavery to women's issues, is not only a tangible part of Islam, but usually magnified.

Yes, that was the one.

I recently saw a video taken in an Islamic school in Toronto where the children enacted a beheading. Start 'em young.....

A scientific "theory" has a different meaning than when we normally talk about a theory. Something is a scientific "theory" when it has been established. Gravity is not a "theory" in the layman's sense of the word. It is a proven scientific fact.

Actually, what Dog said is true. 57 Islamic states united in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that views all people as equal and free. They replaced it with the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) that views people as neither free nor equal. Their declaration limits the right to freedom of religion according to what Sharia permits. Women have less rights than men, as do non-Muslims than Muslims. Slavery is allowed, it is still not abolished in Islam. Human rights in Islam are almost non-existent and the most barbaric punishments are implemented against women and non-Muslims. The majority of Muslims polled want this.

Yay?

Nice thread, Altai. I'm a flamenca, the music sounds a bit the same as flamenco in parts.

I'll have to watch for them. I like-y.

Not sure......The band is named Waster (he also plays in Danger Cat). Those 2 songs are "Rocket Rider" and "40 Creek and 40 Speed" Their reviews generally compare them to Pantera.

** blink, blink ** This coupled with the statement that Islam is innovative......I don't even know what to say.

I've again been listening a lot to my son's band lately, as they are putting out another cd soon. These 2 songs are my faves from a past album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7yjfKrIuyU&list=PL04EF4D7E720D374D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kdy74OUPUpc&index=3&list=PL04EF4D7E720D374D

Of course they don't want us all dead. Who would pay them jizya then?

Hmmmm....mine was also called disfellowshipping..... I will grant you that your experiences with Islam have been great. Mine have not been. I lived in a predominantly Muslim communityfor 8 years. We seem to have experienced 2 very different sides of it.

Where this kind of debate falls short is that the "official" rhetoric of a church, cult, or religion is often different than what is actually practiced and preached in person.My cult will give you a sanitized "public" version of why shunning is practiced. It may even convince you that they are well within their rights to shun. But the reality of it is quite different. You are arguing the "official" rhetoric of Islam. Dog's argument is that the official rhetoric is not what's being practiced. (I apologize, Dog, for again speaking for you. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me)

I just figured out how to quote on my phone. Yay, me! I would absolutely give evidence. There are groups of ex's all over the world working actively on this. We are actually a pretty tight community and very supportive of each other. When I was working on the recovery board, I often took phone calls in the middle of the night from people all over the world needing helpand advice on the best way to get out. Steven Hassan works with us a lot. Rampant and unreported pedophilia and their policies of protecting pedos is what is bringing them to the attention of many governments now. They are a smaller group, about 8 million or so worldwide with another 10 million who are involved but classified as "inactive" but supportive. If it was bigger, there would be more attention. They are very secretive as well, and have a large legal body that helps them fight in the courts. A few years ago, a young woman in California was the first to win a legal victory against them to the tune of 28 million $$. Most victims take the "hush money" because they are quite successful in their legal wrangling and delaying trials and using religious freedom to their advantage.

I think it gets murky when religious freedom is involved. My cult is being investigated in many other countries - the UK and Australia both included it in Royal Commission investigations and the results were not good for the cult. Recommendations have been made regarding revoking their charitable status, etc. Nothing happening in Canada and the US yet.

Big Guy, I haven't had a chance to see that documentary but it's on my to-do list. My experience being born and raised and living 40 years of my life in a cult, getting out with only my children and serving on a recovery forum for others who wanted to get out, is that no one leaves until they are ready. Sometimes it takes something to happen to them personally to find the strength to leave. For me, when I was expected to shun my children, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Thank you for clarifying your views for me, Dialamah. It seemed like you are a "problem for every solution" type of person. And I don't agree with doing nothing simply because we don't know what to do. There will be women who fall through the cracks and that is very unfortunate. But the thing I like about this law is that police don't need to have the woman's consent or complaint to file charges. If it helps a majority and let's men know this is illegal then, great. Although it doesn't mention Muslims specifically, I suspect this law was put in the books to deal with the problem. Because they aren't just "getting it" by observing western culture, as has been suggested many times here.

Dialamah, I think this law in the UK is a good start. It beats sitting back and doing nothing about it. Muslims need to know clearly and definitely that this treatment of women is wrong and will not be tolerated in our country. How do they learn this when we continue to do nothing? Islam is not going to have any kind of reformation. And even if it did, westerners are not going to be able to initiate that reform. Unfortunately Muslim women are going to have to step up and Yes, there will be blood shed. I don't think we empower women by just sitting back and saying, "Oh, it's your religion/culture? Well okay then, keep doing what you're doing." If I was a Muslim woman who wanted out, what empowerment to do so would I feel from a country that basically has 2 sets of laws? One for Western women that makes coercive control illegal and one for Muslims where it is allowed? I don't understand your thinking that allowing this behaviour in Canada just because it's their religion/culture is going to help these women at all.

http://www.weneedtotalkaboutislam.com/single-post/2016/04/06/Coercive-and-controlling-behaviour-Are-UK-legal-changes-good-for-Muslim-women Maybe the UK is onto something here??

I think the difference between Muslims and Christians is that Christians are told to WAIT for Jesus to do the killing. Muslims are instructed to do the killing themselves. This is what makes them more dangerous.