Goddess

So which parts of Islamic ideology do you feel that Canadians should NOT capitulate to? Anything? You seem to always argue that it is Canadians who must submit to Islamic wants and desires, that it is Canadians who must be tolerantand accepting of Muslim culture, never the other way around.

Yup. That's exactly what I'm saying - people allergic to sunlight should not be allowed to cover up if Muslim women aren't allowed to cover up.

My point was in regard to the claim that they are "flexible" in showing their faces. Last summer there was a young Muslim girl at a Mall here in Edmonton who tried to make a scene by going into a shoe repair shop that had a sign on the door that faces needed to be seen upon entering - no face coverings, no balaclavas. The store owner didn't want a lengthy civil rights battle so he now has to allow it all in his shop. I see a lot of flexibility on the part of Canadians, as you pointed out above. Not much on the part of Muslims. I see respect for other cultures as a 2-way street. You see it as Canadians must capitulate to Islam, but Islam doesn't have to do anything to accomodate Canadian culture, which is open and relies on seeing the face to build trust. Perhaps I would feel differently about it if there was more flexibility and respect on the part of Muslims. Perhaps I would feel differently if these garments were actually a part of the religion and not the uniform of Muslim extremists, enforced and promoted by extremists.

So, they don't want to take it off for governmental anything, for judicial anything, not for school or university, not for work, not for voting, not for anything out in public. So where are all these "flexible" times when they can show their face?

Really? Did you miss the one who fought for the right to not show her face during the Canadian Citizenship Oath? Pretty sure you didn't. These don't say "flexible" to me. Respect for other cultures is a 2-way street. Fighting to wear it during the Citizenship Oath: Fighting to wear it in courtrooms: Fighting to wear it in classrooms: Fighting to wear it at all times: I'm sure you're aware of the uproar when Bill 94 was introduced, requiring people who wear face coverings in Quebec to remove them if they work in the public sector or do business with government officials. Fighting to wear it when voting:

No. I just believe it's far less a matter of "choice" than it's purported to be. Sort of like when a mugger says "Gimme all your money or I'll kill you." there's really only one "choice" to make.

I don't think he has wiped out ISIS. Their women followers are fighting in the courts to keep that tradition alive.

I wonder why so many of them are fighting in the courts to not be flexible and show their face when required?

Exactly. Except it's not a requirement of Islam. It's the uniform ISIS requires all women to wear. Or die.

But let's not try to fool ourselves or anybody else that the Queen choosing to wear a headscarf on a windy day is anything like the "choice" Muslim women face. It's not even close. A headscarf is a choice. A hijab is not.

As I'm sure you're aware, the Queen does not wear a headscarf to express her submission to the male gender, nor does she wear it because ISIS demands it of all women. She is also permitted to leave the palace without it on. So in this case, yes. She is wearing it as her choice. The hijab is not "just a headscarf".

Point taken. Will think on how that aspect of choice fits in.

Few JW's are converts. The majority of those who convert come from 3rd world countries. JW's also have the lowest retention rate of all religions, most who are born into it, no longer follow it or leave when they get older. Being a born-in, not a convert, I do not fully understand why grown adults would join the religion. In working with them, they all say, almost to the individual - that much was hidden from them in the early days of becoming a JW and that if they had fully understood what all would be expected of them, they would have never joined in the first place. This is common in cults. One of the first things they tell you when you get interested in them is that you will face opposition to your studying from your family and freinds and advises you to cut them off and not listen to them. This is common in cults. If you were a JW, then you know the massive amount of time that must be spent at meetings, in service, in prayer, in association only with other JW's and in study (OMG the studying!!!). This is also common in cults. The brainwashing must be done repetitively and often. I was surprised when I researched mind-control and cults and found out how pervasive it is in the JW religion. If you went into it and joined up fully aware of what you were signing up for, my experience in working with survivors tells me you would be the exception. Am I painting ALL JW's as helpless victims of brainwashing? I know you are against generalities and that you like to point out the 1-2 % of exceptions to anything and that somehow nullifies the other 98% in your mind. But it doesn't for me. When I was working with survivors, if I had spent time worrying about the 1-2% instead of the 98%, I wouldn't have been very helpful. **swims around your bait, but doesn't bite** Yes, Khadr was pretty exceptional. Most religions don't teach their children to kill.

Thank you, Kactus, for taking the time to understand where I'm coming from and for discussing in a respectful way. If you have further interest in the subject, I would suggest that you investigate your first 3 responses a bit more. Read the exerpts from the book on the thread I linked to before. I really, really do understand and respect the idea of "choice". The point at which that "choice" is not of prime importance is when it no longer is a choice that only affects them PERSONALLY. When the choice being made starts to impact society, especially in a negative way, is where I draw the line on personal "choice". Many Muslims have come to Canada to escape these medieval type of beliefs and I think their feelings also need to be taken into account. They express great disappointment and fear when they come to Canada to escape such things and see it being promoted here, as well. Why should their feelings be less important? I suspect there are more Muslims who would also like to see an end to these garments, than there are ones who want to bring it back, especially in Canada. Those who cling to it, IMO, do so out of fear of reprisals from their community and/or families, lack of correct information, lack of education, comfort in the familiar - more so than out of any "choice". http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/raheel-raza/niqab-burka-ban-canada_b_8189112.html http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/khan-the-niqab-takes-us-back-to-where-muslim-women-should-not-be-going I relate this to the blood transfusion issue with JW's. All JW's make the choice to not have blood transfusions under any circumstances but that choice is not based on accurate information, only information they have been force-fed through the religion and must comply with or else lose their families, livelihoods, etc. The government had to step in and many JW's had their children taken away from them during medical emergencies. The JW reaction was to fight back by focusing on indoctrinating their children to shun blood transfusions and to stand up to the doctors and judges. I was part of the religion when we were instructed very strongly to make sure that our children also denied themselves this medical treatment. This works to an extent - the government then decided that if a mature minor felt very strongly about it, they could make their own "choice". But I'm sure you can see the "choice" is really not their own. It's an illusion of choice, which I cannot support. And every JW will say, "It's my choice" about blood transfusions, too. Thank the goddess, the government stepped in and denied them this "choice" or there would have been many many more deaths.

Does Dog have some kind of influence over the rulership in Iran that we don't know about? Or could it be that he's just giving his ideas on who would best rule in Iran on a discussion board for discussing such things, much like we all give our opinions on various foreign governments?

My apologies for misconstruing your comments. I'm used to being attacked on here, so I may be a bit more paranoid then I need to be at times. Thank you. Truce? Perhaps we both need one of these more often:

I haven't had a lot of exposure to the wars of Islam but I did read quite a bit about the life of Mohammed. It seems that every time he had an issue with his wives, BINGO! he amazingly received a new revelation from Allah that restricted their actions and vindicated Mohammed. The more wives and sex slaves he took on, the more problems he had with them as a group and again, BINGO! amazingly new reveleations. Every. Time. It would have been comical if it wasn't so sad and disheartening. That's funny!

My view also. As to the harmful effects of it and the "choice" to wear it, this author, a Muslim woman, sums up my feelings about it:

Sorry, I got stuck in meetings all morning. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my opinion, especially as I understand it varies widely from your own. First to clarify – Dialamah said that I “hate Islamic dress”. This is designed to give the impression that I just randomly and with no thought automatically disapprove of all Islamic dress. This is incorrect. I very much enjoy and appreciate the clothing styles of many cultures and I have no problem with people wearing their cultural dress. But we are not talking about that here, and Dialamah knows this. We are talking about a specific item of apparel, that has a specific purpose, carries with it a specific history and as she has even admitted here – is controversial. It is controversial for a reason and I don’t believe those reasons should be brushed aside with a casual “It’s my choice”, as if all the reasons that make it controversial in the first place, are nothing. To admit it is a controversial garment, and then not allow discussion of those controversies, or to quickly dismiss them with accusations of “Islamophobia!!!” is at best, poor debating. Women and girls all over the world, including in Western countries are being forced into this garment, are dying and being killed because of it. So yes, I have serious reservations about the legitimacy of this particular garment. (Incidentally, this is what makes your question a “loaded question”. In addition, Dia’s comment is designed to distract from the discussion by creating the false impression that I am prejudiced against anything Islamic so therefore not to be listened to, and your question is designed to force a Yes or No answer to a more complex question, based on Dia’s false allegations of myself, and also designed to distract from the discussion of this particular garment. But hey, I’ll bite today. ) Secondly, to clarify – my background is that I was born and raised in a high-control cult. Long story short, I managed to get myself free of it. That is no easy task, because it involves more than just getting physically free. You also must get mentally free. For me, getting mentally free meant fully and honestly researching my former cult. I also researched the mind control and thought-stopping techniques involved in brainwashing and how to break free from these processes. I researched logical fallacies and debating so that I could identify when these were being used in my former cult’s literature. When I got myself mentally free, I worked for 10 years on a discussion/recovery forum for others who were also trying to get free. We occasionally had Mormons show up on our board who also needed help, so I ended up researching the shit out of that religion, too. There aren’t many Mormon or JW or Hutterite or Amish threads here, so…..while it may seem that I only have issues with Islam *here*, I could totally blow a lot of wonky religious beliefs from many religions out of the water as well. Blowing JW’s out of the water over the blood issue is a particular favourite of mine because this is also a belief that people are literally dying from. It wasn’t until I lived in a town with a high Muslim population and saw their reaction to the birth of ISIS and saw the issues arising from the religion’s adherents that I said, “WTF is going on in THIS religion??” and started looking into it more. So my interest is not just in exposing Islam, no religion is safe from me. Haha! It would be more accurate if you called me a “Religionophobe”. Now, to get to your question: Unfortunately, my answer is: It depends. It depends on a variety of factors. What is the history of the dress? What is its purpose? What is its function? Is the dress code truly a part of the religion, or is it an extreme interpretation of it? Is it enforced for just religious functions? Or is it enforced at all times? Does it harm or does it benefit the wearer – physically, psychologically, emotionally, socially, etc? If the garment’s purpose is to make a public statement of values, does that public statement agree or disagree with what the prevailing society’s values are? Does it harm or does it benefit society as a whole? Of course there are lots of other considerations to take into account when evaluating a religious belief. And I wouldn’t completely dismiss any particular belief based solely on any ONE of the above criteria, except maybe the harm/benefit factor, and especially if people are dying over it. So, back to you – find me the religion that is not just quietly practicing, but actively promoting a proven harmful article of clothing, that its adherents are being killed over and dying for, that promotes an extreme interpretation of the basic religion, that promotes social values far out of step with the rest of the modern world – and I will condemn that garment as well. My research on this garment leads me to believe there is more harm inherent in it, than benefits. So while I completely understand your argument that it is a woman’s choice to wear this or not, I don’t believe that should be what is of prime importance. I think because of its many harmful attributes, it should probably treated much the same as seatbelts. It’s totally your choice to wear or not wear them. If you choose to not wear them, there are fines. You also should accept the more serious consequences of choosing not to wear them – you may be seriously injured or killed by your choice. Same with these garments, a fine if you insist on wearing it. And you will not be shielded from society’s disapproval (within legal boundaries, of course.) Now, Doggie! May I borrow your umbrella to deflect the rotten tomatoes?

DOP's comment wasn't accusing you of beating your wife. It was his way of saying that you are asking a loaded question for which there is no right answer - if you answer Yes, then you're a wife beater, If you answer No, you're still a wife beater. It's a classic. And an indication that the question isn't genuine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question I have a meeting now, but I'll be back.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is an honest question and not a personal attack and answer this. However, I can't tonight. I'll respond in the morning, if you still want to discuss it.

1. And yet this "controversial" item persists and is having a surge in popularity, especially in the West. 2. My arguments against these covers go beyond just that they are misogynistic. They are harmful physically, psychologically, emotionally. They affect not just women, but men and how they relate to women and they affect the children who are forced into them. This information is not well broadcast. You have to go looking for it. And the ones who do try to broadcast it end up having to hire bodyguards even when they are in free countries. Hirsi Ali, for just one,as you know. Others were killed. And No, I don't think most Muslim women have fully researched it, the same as the majority of people born into a religion never research it fully. It's a scary thing to do that. And its even scarier to disagree with a high-control religion, there are implications for family, community, friend relationships. And then you need to make a choice - go along with it, or leave it all behind. Not everyone has that strength, so even if they sense something is wrong, they won't "go there" in their mind. So basically, I think Muslim women are the same as everyone else - few will research their religion seriously. Fewer still will have the fortitude it rakes to face up honestly to what they find. And even fewer still would be willing to risk leaving it. It's much easier to just say, "It's my choice."

Actùally I have posted my idea on how to handle this in Canada already on this forum. But I didn't get the impression that you were really wanting an answer. It was presented as a personal attack because obviously if I'm not a hijab and burqa lover/fan/supporter that means I go around assaulting those who do.

There's probably a fatwa out on me right now. Haha

Yes, I noticed that because the personal attacks start when people are out of debate: FYI I've always been in the West. And no, I don't feel that I should make their choices because I'm smarter than them. I'm smarter then them because I actually got off my ass and researched my former religion and all it's doctrines and beliefs and then....... MADE AN INFORMED CHOICE. That is all these women need. Information and Education. Withholding the true nature of hijabs and burquas, romanticising and legitimizing the garments is withholding the information they need to also make an informed choice. This information was withheld from them in their former Islam-ruled countries and here, we withhold it from them out of some kind of misplaced pity or whatever. You know what started me researching my former religion? People calling me out on my bullshit choices. If, after researching the history and purpose of the covers a woman THEN chooses to wear it.....I am in total agreement with her choice to wear it. Because then it will be an informed choice.