Je suis Omar

Pretty lame smoke and mirrors, Kimmy. Is this really the best you can do as regards the science?

You're not addressing the science, OGFT, you're creating diversions. Forum guidelines suggest that's not desirable. Your source is outdated because the contentions made have been proven, by scientific experiments, to be unjustified. Not just one unjustified contention but many. You likely haven't watched "TheGreat Thermate Debate". It also showed how other contentions found on your source's site are unjustified. Instead of addressing the science you go off with the above nonsense.

Michael once told me that it was my responsibility to present that needed for my contentions. So I did. I think Michael should be willing to follow his own advice.

The UN General Assembly has passed an Arab-introduced resolution calling on Israel not to develop, produce or possess nuclear arms and criticizing the country for not being part to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). If you don't agree with war crimes and terrorism then why do you support war criminals and terrorists?

Yes, to the 2300 architects, engineers and scientists who actually perform experiments to test the various hypotheses. Why would you have chosen such a hopelessly outdated website to advance your ideas, OGFT? Why aren't you using the laser like focus being exhibited by the others in your camp to address the science? The "truther" approach is truth. Notice how I post things with that in mind. You, certainly some tries., but this your latest post is dismal as regards science. Would you care to do a review of Kimmy's, Michael's and Argus's approach to science?

Forum Rules and Guidelines Do not post inflammatory remarks just to annoy people. If you are not bringing anything new to the argument, then do not say anything at all.

More of the laser like focus. Go ahead and present some evidence, Kimmy. I'm all ears. Did you watch the video of Jon Cole, PE, "The Great Thermate Debate". He, unlike NIST, actually performed scientific experiments. Which is also what Steven Jones did.

Did all 200 pages of the other thread consist of the same brilliant science, the focused attention to detail, being shown by you and your fellow scientists in this thread, Kimmy? That must have been fun, not to mention edifying.

Jonathan Cole - 9/11 Experiments: The Great Thermate Debate - AE911Truth.org

Supported by the USA.

You do have a very difficult time focusing, Argus. TimG's caring argument resurrected.

No democracy for the poor countries the USA used to steal massive amounts of wealth. You are joking about "liberation movements for gender and sexual orientation, too".

Ask all the poor countries of the world that the USA has raped and pillaged about that, Carepov.

What I find most perplexing, Kimmy, is how you folks studiously avoid discussing the science. It is Kafkaesque.What is also highly perplexing is your sudden appearance and your laser like focus on the science.

But NIST did, and OGFT did and so did all the folks who said it wasn't molten steel/iron. They all described the organic materials. Odd that a fount of unbiased neutrality would miss that. Any idea why the great bunch of scientists at NIST would not perform any simple experiments to substantiate any of their notions? That's what scientists do.

Argus: What post proving it's not molten aluminum?! I didn't see no such post! It don't exist I tell you!!

What is the name for this type of illogic?

It was and is illegal for Israel to possess nuclear weapons. You seem to be of the opinion that all manner of war crime, terrorism and illegality is made okay because one is an ally.I hope you don't also consider your position moral.

No doubt, Carepov, and I dare say many caring, balanced, loving people. This doesn't in any way diminish the fact that the USA, as controlled by a relatively small select group, has been for its entire history a predatory, terrorist rogue nation. "Because the United States does not look like a militarized country, it's hard for Americans to grasp that Washington is a war capital, that the United States is a war state, that it garrisons much of the planet, and that the norm for us is to be at war somewhere at any moment." Tom Engelhardt

No, that would be patently false. There are many individual Americans who have done much good. America deserves no credit for advancing freedom and democracy, for being a savior of the oppressed. Ask yourself, "in how many poor countries that the USA has invaded was democracy established and in those same countries how many were brutal right wing dictators?" The USA has been nothing but a bully towards the poor countries of the world, the ones that can't defend themselves. The amount of wealth that the USA has stolen from these poor is incalculable.

The important take away portion, OGFT, I've put in bold, though it is all important. It completely refutes the notion that the flowing metal was molten aluminum. NIST tries to circumvent this problem with the untested proposition that the observed glow could be due to the mixing of aluminum with combustible organic materials from the building's interior. But Dr. Jones has actually performed the experiments that soundly refute NIST's hypothesis. As he puts it, "This is a key to understanding why the aluminum does not 'glow orange' due to partially-burned organics 'mixed' in (per NIST theory), because they do not mix in! My colleague noted that, just like oil and water, organics and molten aluminum do not mix. The hydrocarbons float to the top, and there burn and embers glow, yes, but just in spots. The organics clearly do not impart to the hot liquid aluminum an 'orange glow' when it falls, when you actually do the experiment!" --------------------------- Dr. Jones' paper reveals that the initial bright yellow-white glow of the expelled liquid was consistent with a glowing stream of molten iron from "a nearby thermite reaction zone," and the expected white smoke (aluminum oxide off-gassing) supports that conclusion. NIST must rely on its claim of molten aluminum in order to validate its official fire-based explanation, because office fires cannot generate the extreme temperature required to melt steel or iron. The fundamental flaw of the aluminum hypothesis, though, is that the implied temperature of the white glow remains above 1200°C/2200°F, regardless of the metal involved. An independent researcher suggested that the molten substance could be lead from storage batteries, but this explanation fails as do all hypotheses based on alternative metals because the temperature required for the yellow-white glow of the metal is beyond the capability of the building fire. Figure 4. Molten aluminum appears silvery when poured in daylight conditions, even if initially heated to the yellow-white temperature range in the crucible. Dr. Jones also notes that molten aluminum appears silvery as it melts at 660°C/1220°F, and that it remains silvery when poured in daylight conditions, regardless of the temperature. It is theoretically possible to continue heating liquid aluminum way past its melting point and into the yellow-white temperature range, but the office fire was not a plausible source for such high temperatures, and there was no crucible to contain liquid aluminum for continued heating. Put another way, even if the building fire could have somehow provided the needed temperature for the yellow-white glow, the unrestrained aluminum would have melted and trickled away before it could achieve such a temperature. This problem also rules out other proposed alternative metals lead, for example which have similarly low melting points. Finally, Dr. Jones adds that even if liquid aluminum could have been restrained long enough to make it glow white, it would still have appeared silvery within the first two meters of falling through the air in daylight conditions, due to its high reflectivity and low emissivity. Figure 5. The liquid metal cannot be aluminum, for it remains orange-yellow, despite falling several hundred feet in broad daylight. NIST states that aluminum "can display an orange glow" if blended with organic materials, but Dr. Jones has experimentally invalidated this theory by demonstrating that organics and molten aluminum do not mix. Thus, the liquid metal seen pouring out of the South Tower could not have been aluminum, since it remains yellow in broad daylight, despite falling several hundred feet through the air. NIST tries to circumvent this problem with the untested proposition that the observed glow could be due to the mixing of aluminum with combustible organic materials from the building's interior. But Dr. Jones has actually performed the experiments that soundly refute NIST's hypothesis. As he puts it, "This is a key to understanding why the aluminum does not 'glow orange' due to partially-burned organics 'mixed' in (per NIST theory), because they do not mix in! My colleague noted that, just like oil and water, organics and molten aluminum do not mix. The hydrocarbons float to the top, and there burn and embers glow, yes, but just in spots. The organics clearly do not impart to the hot liquid aluminum an 'orange glow' when it falls, when you actually do the experiment!" http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/899-what-was-the-molten-metal-seen-pouring-out-of-the-south-tower-minutes-before-its-collapse-steel-and-iron-or-aluminum-andor-lead.html

That's precisely the point, Carepov, one can't locate in the historical record events where the USA has been a force for good. We don't compare John Gotti to Al Capone or Al Capone to Whitey Bulger to determine who was the worst gangster. "Others committed crimes too" isn't a defence for anyone's crimes.

Is there any reason that Iran shouldn't nuclear weapons when Israel has them, Shady?

US & UK genocide in Indonesia ------------------------- ... Sukarno could be a democrat and a demagogue. For a time, Indonesia was a parliamentary democracy, then became what he called a 'guided democracy'. He encouraged mass trade unions and peasant, women's and cultural movements. Between 1959 and 1965, more than 15 million people joined political parties or affiliated mass organisations that were encouraged to challenge British and American influence in the region. With 3 million members, the PKI was the largest communist party in the world outside the Soviet Union and China. According to the Australian historian Harold Crouch, 'the PKI had won widespread support not as a revolutionary party but as an organisation defending the interests of 'the poor within the existing system'. It was this popularity, rather than any armed insurgency, that alarmed the Americans. Like Vietnam to the north, Indonesia might 'go communist' . In 1990, the American investigative journalist Kathy Kadane revealed the extent of secret American collaboration in the massacres of 1965-66 which allowed Suharto to seize the presidency. Following a series of interviews with former US officials, she wrote, 'They systematically compiled comprehensive lists of communist operatives. As many as 5,000 names were furnished to the Indonesian army, and the Americans later checked off the names of those who had been killed or captured.' One of those interviewed was Robert J Martens, a political officer in the US embassy in Jakarta. 'It was a big help to the army,' he said. 'They probably killed a lot of people and I probably have a lot of blood on my hands, but that's not all bad. There's a time when you have to strike hard at a decisive moment.' Joseph Lazarsky, the deputy CIA station chief in Jakarta, said that confirmation of the killings came straight from Suharto's headquarters. 'We were getting a good account in Jakarta of who was being picked up,' he said. 'The army had a "shooting list" of about 4,000 or 5,000 people. They didn't have enough goon squads to zap them all, and some individuals were valuable for interrogation. The infrastructure [of the PKI] was zapped almost immediately. We knew what they were doing . . . Suharto and his advisers said, if you keep them alive you have to feed them.' Having already armed and equipped much of the army, Washington secretly supplied Suharto's troops with a field communications network as the killings got under way. Flown in at night by US air force planes based in the Philippines, this was state-of-the-art equipment, whose high frequencies were known to the CIA and the National Security Agency advising President Johnson. Not only did this allow Suharto's generals to co-ordinate the killings, it meant that the highest echelons of the US administration were listening in and that Suharto could seal off large areas of the country. Although there is archive film of people being herded into trucks and driven away, a single fuzzy photograph of a massacre is, to my knowledge, the only pictorial record of what was Asia's holocaust The American Ambassador in Jakarta was Marshall Green, known in the State Department as 'the coupmaster'. Green had arrived in Jakarta only months earlier, bringing with him a reputation for having masterminded the overthrow of the Korean leader Syngman Rhee, who had fallen out with the Americans. When the killings got under way in Indonesia, manuals on student organising, written in Korean and English, were distributed by the US embassy to the Indonesian Student Action Command (KAMI), whose leaders were sponsored by the CIA. On October 5, 1965, Green cabled Washington on how the United States could 'shape developments to our advantage'. The plan was to blacken the name of the PKI and its 'protector', Sukarno. The propaganda should be based on '[spreading] the story of the PKI's guilt, treachery and brutality'. At the height of the bloodbath, Green assured General Suharto: 'The US is generally sympathetic with and admiring of what the army is doing.'' As for the numbers killed, Howard Federspiel, the Indonesia expert at the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research in 1965, said, 'No one cared, as long as they were communists, that they were being butchered. No one was getting very worked up about it.' The Americans worked closely with the British, the reputed masters and inventors of the 'black' propaganda admired and adapted by Joseph Goebbels in the 1930s. Sir Andrew Gilchrist, the Ambassador in Jakarta, made his position clear in a cable to the Foreign Office: 'I have never concealed from you my belief that a little shooting in Indonesia would be an essential preliminary to effective change.' With more than 'a little shooting' under way, and with no evidence of the PKI's guilt, the embassy advised British intelligence headquarters in Singapore on the line to be taken, with the aim of 'weakening the PKI permanently' . MORE AT, http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Pilger_John/Model_Pupil_TNROTW.html