Je suis Omar

For those who believe in the myth of a benevolent Uncle Sam, read about it from a man who knows, a man who has the necessary moral grounding to make an escape from the amoral government that was his employer. The CIA and the Gulf War by John Stockwell A speech delivered on 1991-02-20 at the Louden Nelson Community Center, Santa Cruz, California http://www.serendipity.li/cia/stock2.html You've got to understand that the United States is and has always been a war-loving nation, a warring nation. But one with a smile. We've learned how to put a twist on it so we can feel good about doing what other nations have done that we consider to be evil.

TimG: A tragic error in judgement. Part of the issue is I do not see bombing of cities during a war to be inherently wrong. Whether people want to admit it or not, wars cannot happen without the support of the civilian population and that makes cities and their infrastructure legitimate targets when a full scale war engaged. ----------------- Is this justification for the 911 attacks on New York?

See the following. It provides a good example of how badly the USA has twisted the historical record to cover up its massive war crimes, its incessant terrorism. That terrorism has continued against numerous small countries around the globe - Cuba and Korea are two excellent examples. The Korean War: The Unknown War. The Coverup of US War Crimes By Sherwood Ross Global Research, March 16, 2011 16 March 2011 Region: Asia Theme: Crimes against Humanity http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-korean-war-the-unknown-war-the-coverup-of-us-war-crimes/23742

You got USA propaganda with all barrels, Argus, because the USA controlled the narrative like it always has. --------------------- Excerpts from: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-korean-atrocity-forgotten-us-war-crimes-and-crimes-against-humanity/5335525 Noam Chomsky provides a more dramatic description of the situation: When US forces entered Korea in 1945, they dispersed the local popular government, consisting primarily of antifascists who resisted the Japanese, and inaugurated a brutal repression, using Japanese fascist police and Koreans who had collaborated with them during the Japanese occupation. About 100,000 people were murdered in South Korea prior to what we call the Korean War, including 30-40,000 killed during the suppression of a peasant revolt in one small region, Cheju Island. ... The official story is that the Korean War began when the Soviet-backed North invaded the South on June 25, 1950. The US then came to the Souths aid. As is the case with most official US history the story is incomplete, if not downright false. Korea: Division, Reunification, and US foreign Policy notes: The best explanation of what happened on June 25 is that Syngman Rhee deliberately initiated the fighting and then successfully blamed the North. The North, eagerly waiting for provocation, took advantage of the southern attack and, without incitement by the Soviet Union, launched its own strike with the objective of capturing Seoul. Then a massive U.S. intervention followed.

The US committed a massive series of war crimes not only against the people of Vietnam, but also against the Laotians and the Cambodians. Same with Iraq. But those war crimes started long before Bush little. In Afghanistan too, US terrorism then another illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.

Focus, George. Not "all". Two.

My contention is that they are equal. Please explain how they are not.

Agreed, under the auspices of Número Uno war criminal. Canada is like an Al Capone underling. Could you confirm for those who don't know just who is the Número Uno war criminal nation?

So be it, George. At least we have the central issue settled. The US is not to be trusted in anything they say or do. The world is just a Nazis running wild theme park. It kind of makes all the talk of appeasing this or that dictator little more than puffery.

The most valuable lesson we can learn from the WWII era would be to not let war criminals distort history. This grand distortion of history goes much further back than the 1940s of course, but the theme is the same. We don't have to go back to WWII, Tim. There are plenty of examples from today. We have the war crimes committed by the USA invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

A-Bombing of Japan Was Unnecessary Published: October 29, 1988 To the Editor: R.H. Hodges's letter (''An Inner Circle of 100 or So Carried Out A-Bombing of Japan,'' Oct. 1), which defends the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ignores longstanding evidence and documents unearthed by historians in recent years. Even the official strategic bombing survey concluded shortly after World War II that the atomic bombs were unnecessary: ''Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.'' http://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/29/opinion/l-a-bombing-of-japan-was-unnecessary-393488.html

My guess, and mind you, it's only a guess, Argus, but I'd say no. However, historians do exist, generals too. The ones who chose reality agree with Carepov's assessment.

[quote name="carepov" post="1043251" timestamp Well, nobody except for the Russians, Chinese, Spanish, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Arabs, Turks.... Admittedly, there are other contenders. But the Oscar has to go to the Americans who have actually been able to fool way more people than any others you mentioned, Carepov.

TimG: You can't prevent wars unless people are willing to let go nationalist/religious ideas. For example, in the South China sea there is no rational reason for China to insist on "owning" a bunch of little islands. They only insist on it because there are a lot of nationalist bigots in China who think the reputation of China is some how connected to "owning" these islands. This in, turn, makes the countries that currently "own" the islands feel like they being bullied and that they have no choice but to stand up to the bully in order to prevent even greater bullying the future. The end result could be war but preventing it requires that Chinese nationalists give up their notions and accept that peaceful trade is a better for China's long term reputation than short term bullying. That is not going to happen. -------------- Why do you pick China for your example, Tim? Why not the USA? Compare the number of bullying over land and resources by China with that of the USA. What do you think the final tally would be?

Are you suggesting that telling the truth is a violation of forum rules? Or is your problem with speaking uncomfortable truths? Open debate is supposedly what we westerners are famous for. Some of us certainly do like to lord it over those in other nations.

Tim: Hindsight is 20/20. When you are in a war you don't really know what is necessary and you have to rely on trial and error. This means that no matter what some of your "trials" can be viewed as "errors" in retrospect but that does not mean the decision made with the information available at the time was wrong. The best example is Nagasaki. We can reasonably argue now that if the Japanese were given a little more time they would have surrendered without the second bomb. However, at the time, the Americans could not known that for sure and using the second bomb just "in case" was a reasonable decision. ---------- Another of those long standing pernicious US lies. Nobody twists history better or more than the US. Why didn't that defence work for the Germans, Japanese or Italians? Or for that matter, the folks who ran Nazis death camps?

Within the boundaries of law and morality. Those have been established for some time. Those were reestablished right after WWII, but they have never been followed by the USA. Obsessed? First, I give you Simon Wiesenthal, Noam Chomsky, William Blum, John Stockton, ... . Next, as an object lesson in hypocrisy, I give you the USA. Who is more obsessed than them, as they prance about pointing their finger at all the war criminals and terrorists who truly pale into insignificance next to their own carnage. I take it that you believe this to be the lessons of Nuremberg.

There can't be anything wrong with the thread, G. That's what threads are for, to discuss things. That's what I'm told - those that came before fought and died for. In fact, that very notion is even being advanced about those in these modern day conflicts that are erupting all over the globe.

No, Michael, it is about derailing the science. You only have to look at all the folks who pointedly ignore the science, you included, and want to talk about what they constantly rail against - conspiracy theories. And now that's all you want to discuss.

I take great issue with your comment that you look at the historical context, Tim. You are doing nothing of the sort. Your "relative peace" is an absolute myth. While you have been enjoying your creature comforts, you care not at all, by your own shocking admission, of the millions slaughtered, the more countless hundreds of millions who have had their lives and homes destroyed, relatives and loved ones taken from them, children poisoned, ... by the USA. Could there be a more pampered, narcissistic hypocrisy than that?

Thank you for once being honest. We agree, it is ridiculous that these nonsensical notions of freedom and liberty are advanced by the greatest terrorist group/nation that has ever existed.

Why would a moderator, which I am led to believe you are, Michael, wish to break the rules of the forum, which seem to be desirous of keeping threads focused.

Called the "freedom tower". That's as ridiculous a notion as the Statue of Liberty being located in the USA.

Forum Rules and Guidelines ... It is also important that you stay on topic and keep the discussion focused. If the thread begins to wonder off into a new topic area, start a new thread and continue the discussion under the new thread. If you feel a thread is being watered down with too many different topic areas and you do not want to start the new thread yourself, feel free to contact a moderator and request a new thread.

Your ongoing contributions to the advancement of science, here in this thread, contradict what you just said.