Je suis Omar

Your claims to being a scientist are obviously bogus, Derek. You should be shocked. Buildings that suffer asymmetric damage, with small, widely spaced fires, do not collapse. History has clearly shown us that. And a collapse at free fall speed. Such utter nonsense! Office fires cannot create temperatures hot enough to create molten steel. I guess it's just good ole American exceptionalism that they can get three steel framed buildings to collapse on one day when there has has never ever been such a collapse before, (despite what the renowned scientist, Bush_Cheney2004 says). For Derek and the other meme chuckers, don't see the pictures at the following site, http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm For those interested in science, see the above.

Why does this not surprise me, Boges, that you support terrorism.

The US-NATO led war applied Worlwide is a criminal undertaking under the disguise of counter-terrorism. It violates the Nuremberg Charter, the US constitution and the UN charter. According to former chief Nuremberg prosector Benjamin Ferencz, in relation to the 2003 invasion of Iraq:a prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation. Ferenz was referring to Crimes against Peace and War (Nuremberg Principle VI): which states the following: The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law: (a) Crimes against peace: (i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; (ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i). b. War crimes: Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity. © Crimes against humanity: Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime. (i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; (ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i). It should be noted that Nuremberg Principle III relates directly to president Obama and the heads of State and heads of government of the US-NATO led coalition: a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law. Moreover, the evidence amply confirms that the United States of America is a State Sponsor of Terrorism and that the campaign against the Islamic State is a smokescreen used by the US and its allies to justify in the eyes of public opinion its global war of conquest. http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-ultimate-war-crime-americas-global-war-on-terrorism/5434478

Completely fatuous.

From your screed, Rue, I saved the one thing that came the closest to you discussing science. Congratulations. Why do you think so many are so reluctant to discuss the science?

There are many who are attracted to shiny lights and baubles. People who are looking to escape the evil conditions created by the USA over a wide swath of the world would accept pretty much anything.

Your repeated attempts at diversion are really juvenile. You want to discuss ancient history. Talk about dishonesty! The Germans of WWII didn't raise this silly notion as a defence. No, that's not all there is. The historical record is replete with examples showing the USA was born of terrorism and it has continued that for well over 200 years right up to today. We're talking about massive war crimes committed by the USA since WWII. The same USA that has done nothing but lie for over two centuries about how it is the saviour of the oppressed. The USA only does oppression, but the "land of the brave" is careful to prey on the powerless, the poor of the world. How sick is that?!

You want to discuss the UK's war crimes and terrorism, go right ahead. I'll help you. The UK's crimes are inextricably tied up to those of the USA. But the UK is like a minor player in a major Mafia group. The USA is the John Gotti, the Whitey Bulger, the Al Capone. ------------------ Diego Garcia Military Base As the British Empire collapsed, USA expanded into parts of it. When the USA-UK decided in the 1960s to install a massive military base on one of the Indian Ocean Islands making up Mauritius, that is to say, on the Island of Diego Garcia, in order to implement this decision, they committed a number of crimes. The UK-US Crimes The British Government had, firstly, to steal the Chagos Islands, including Diego Garcia, from the totality of the islands making up the State of Mauritius. This was in the run-up to Mauritian Independence which was in 1968. They did this behind the back of the British Parliament, resorting to an archaic Royal Prerogative, an Order in Council. This was Harold Wilsons Labour Government. He contravened UN Resolution 1514 which states clearly that Any attempt at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the UN. Furthermore, UN member states who had got wind of the plot to dismember Mauritius had actually voted resolution 2066 calling on Britain to take no action that would dismember territory of Mauritius and violate its territorial integrity. UN resolution 2066 prohibited this land-grab. Once Britain had stolen the Islands and concocted a new colony called British Indian Ocean Territories or BIOT (which included some stolen Seychelles Islands that the Seychelles government, importantly, claimed afterwards when Albert Rene came to power, and got), Britain, together with the USA, proceeded with the second crime. They forcibly removed the entire population of Chagossian Mauritians living there. They hounded them off their homes by trickery, intimidation, threats, terror and finally brute violence. The Chagossian dogs were rounded up and killed before their eyes, and before the eyes of their children. The US-UK invented a blatant lie to the effect that nobody lived there. And they knew it was a blatant lie. All this has been documented in detail, especially since the late 1990s when the 30 years of the Official SecretsAct ran out and proof was available by the ream proof of the forcible removals, the conspiracy involved, of the conscious invention of lies, together with the racist comments that are concomitant to such violence. In the judgement in 2000 of Chagossian leader Olivier Bancoults case against the British State, the British Supreme Court deplores the conspiracy. They even quote a civil servants note saying Unfortunately, along with the Birds go some few Tarzans or Man Fridays whose origins are obscure, and who are being hopefully wished on to Mauritius. Thirdly, the USA, the receiver of the stolen Islands, proceeded to pour concrete and tarmac on to the most beautiful coral reef in the world, a horse-shoe shaped pair of islands, called Diego Garcia. They destroyed the entire eco-system. Now there are undersea re-inforced concrete bunkers, barracks for thousands of armed forces, clubs for the different ranks present at the Base: the high ranks of top brass, the next highest for officers, then for the ranks of ordinary soldiers and sailors, and finally the lowest of mainly manual workers up to the level of nurses, who come from mainly the Philippines and Mauritius. There is also a huge runway from which B-52s thundered off to bomb Afganistan and Iraq. There is a filthy harbour where air-craft carriers dock. The vessel responsible for servicing nuclear submarines expelled from Italy after demonstrations, is now stationed there. This is in contravention of the Treaty for a Nuclear Arms Free Africa, the Pelindaba Treaty, which came into force in 2010. ... http://www.wri-irg.org/es/node/14999

No, not the one that "was next to WTC1"; that one only exists for those engaged in obfuscation. I mean the WTC7 that was 123 yards away from WTC1. No it wasn't allowed to burn for nearly 8 hours. You really should consider checking the facts. The one that had scattered fires on just a few floors. Fires that were not at all like all the other truly serious raging fires in steel framed buildings around the world that never caused any global collapse. How did it come to be that there were examples of molten steel found in WTC7, Derek, when there was, purportedly, no fuel available to melt that steel?

Stop trolling, jbg. If you are too frightened to address my responses to you, you have no business in an adult forum.

Highly illustrative of your "scientific approach", Derek.

There isn't a thinking person alive who would agree with the nonsense that you have been trying, are here trying to pass off as science, Derek. "If ... COULD ...". There is no one trying to advance this BS and you know its BS. Why did you wait so long to bring up this "explosive evidence". No need to reply. We all know why. Not even the official government folks, NIST, agree with this nonsense that you are advancing. You don't quote anything pertinent because it's all make believe. ------------- The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air, and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes, since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below. ... NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius (900 degrees Fahrenheit) and 640 degrees Celsius (1,200 degrees Fahrenheit)depending on the particular alloywell below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius or 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning. Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface. http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/faqs_wtctowers.cfm ------------------ Your posts were childish, what with the big pictures and all, not at all what one would expect of a body with a university degree.

I'm overwhelmed, as usual, Argus, by your arguments on the issue at hand, and of course, your impeccable sources.I don't know who is more erudite, you or George/Georgia.

This isn't a matter of "deserved to die" at all. It isn't me justifying those killings. There is no justification for terrorist actions from Canada, the USA, ISIS, CSIS, CIA, Australia, ... . Causation is another matter and only fools and their equally foolish supporters deny that. -------------- https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/22/canada-proclaiming-war-12-years-shocked-someone-attacked-soldiers/ TORONTO In Quebec on Monday, two Canadian soldiers were hit by a car driven by Martin Couture-Rouleau, a 25-year-old Canadian who, as The Globe and Mail reported, converted to Islam recently and called himself Ahmad Rouleau. One of the soldiers died, as did Couture-Rouleau when he was shot by police upon apprehension after allegedly brandishing a large knife. Police speculated that the incident was deliberate, alleging the driver waited for two hours before hitting the soldiers, one of whom was wearing a uniform. The incident took place in the parking lot of a shopping mall 30 miles southeast of Montreal, a few kilometres from the Collège militaire royal de Saint-Jean, the military academy operated by the Department of National Defence. The right-wing Canadian government wasted no time in seizing on the incident to promote its fear-mongering agenda over terrorism, which includes pending legislation to vest its intelligence agency, CSIS, with more spying and secrecy powers in the name of fighting ISIS. A government spokesperson asserted clear indications that the driver had become radicalized. In a clearly prearranged exchange, a conservative MP, during parliamentary question time, asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper (pictured above) whether this was considered a terrorist attack; in reply, the prime minister gravely opined that the incident was obviously extremely troubling. Canadas Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney pronounced the incident clearly linked to terrorist ideology, while newspapers predictably followed suit, calling it a suspected terrorist attack and homegrown terrorism. CSIS spokesperson Tahera Mufti said the event was the violent expression of an extremist ideology promoted by terrorist groups with global followings and added: That something like this would happen in a peaceable Canadian community like Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu shows the long reach of these ideologies. In sum, the national mood and discourse in Canada is virtually identical to what prevails in every Western country whenever an incident like this happens: shock and bewilderment that someone would want to bring violence to such a good and innocent country (a peaceable Canadian community like Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu), followed by claims that the incident shows how primitive and savage is the terrorist ideology of extremist Muslims, followed by rage and demand for still more actions of militarism and freedom-deprivation. There are two points worth making about this: First, Canada has spent the last 13 years proclaiming itself a nation at war. It actively participated in the invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and was an enthusiastic partner in some of the most extremist War on Terror abuses perpetrated by the U.S. Earlier this month, the Prime Minister revealed, with the support of a large majority of Canadians, that Canada is poised to go to war in Iraq, as [he] announced plans in Parliament [] to send CF-18 fighter jets for up to six months to battle Islamic extremists. Just yesterday, Canadian Defence Minister Rob Nicholson flamboyantly appeared at the airfield in Alberta from which the fighter jets left for Iraq and stood tall as he issued the standard Churchillian war rhetoric about the noble fight against evil.

As Professor Chomsky said: We then designate terrorist acts as "terrorist" just in the cases where they can be attributed (whether plausibly or not) to the required source; otherwise they are to be ignored, suppressed, or termed "retaliation" or "self-defence."I'm always amazed at how some folks seem so pleased to go thru life with blinders on. Horses are more than smart enough to request their removal, but supposedly educated people ... .

Do you have any real understanding of what you have just said, jbg? Do you have an idea of the number of Cambodians, Vietnamese, Laotians, Koreans who were blown into parts so small they virtually disappeared. Disappearing people, in many different ways, is what the USA does best. Have you heard of Nixon's instructions to Kissinger and on down to the bombing command - "Anything that flies on anything that moves". See "Bombing Over Cambodia" (link below) to see just how brutal and amoral this very common American action was. http://www.yale.edu/cgp/Walrus_CambodiaBombing_OCT06.pdf

Here we go again - "The Commies are coming, the Commies are coming". Who are the dupes?

International Terrorism: Image and RealityNoam Chomsky In Alexander George (ed.), Western State Terrorism, Routledge, December, 1991 There are two ways to approach the study of terrorism. One may adopt a literal approach, taking the topic seriously, or a propagandistic approach, construing the concept of terrorism as a weapon to be exploited in the service of some system of power. In each case it is clear how to proceed. Pursuing the literal approach, we begin by determining what constitutes terrorism. We then seek instances of the phenomenon -- concentrating on the major examples, if we are serious -- and try to determine causes and remedies. The propagandistic approach dictates a different course. We begin with the thesis that terrorism is the responsibility of some officially designated enemy. We then designate terrorist acts as "terrorist" just in the cases where they can be attributed (whether plausibly or not) to the required source; otherwise they are to be ignored, suppressed, or termed "retaliation" or "self-defence. http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199112--02.htm

But yet you support the greatest terrorists on the planet, the ones that have been terrorizing, poisoning, torturing, killing Cubans, Iraqis, afghans, Nicaraguans, Brazilians, Guatemalans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Filipinos, Chinese, Laotians, Hawaiians, ... for over a century. And don't forget Native Americans. And you don't see the huge disconnect in your thinking?

It provides a demarcation point which provides a good comparison for all that the USA is - Nazi Germany with a much much longer run.

It's not at all difficult to see where you are coming from, George. It's either your fictions or your lame attempts at diverting from the issues under discussion.

B_C2004: The U.S. (and Canada for that matter), had internment and POW camps, not "NAZI concentration and death camps". Just one example, below, of this central theme that runs thru America's numerous illegal invasions since WWII, death squads. But USA death squads are not just post WWII. They are a central theme of American history. ------------------------ http://www.alternet.org/world/americas-hired-death-squads-and-torture-teams-are-still-operating-iraq Death squads, torture, secret prisons in Iraq, and General David Petraeus are among the featured atrocities in a recently-released new British documentary James Steele: Americas Mystery Man in Iraq the result of a 15-month investigation by Guardian Films and BBC Arabic, exploring war crimes long denied by the Pentagon but confirmed by thousands of military field reports made public by Wikileaks. The hour-long film explores the arc of American counterinsurgency brutality from Viet-Nam to Iraq, with stops along the way in El Salvador and Nicaragua. James Steele is now a retired U.S. colonel who first served in Viet-Nam as a company commander in 1968-69. He later made his reputation as a military advisor in El Salvador, where he guided ruthless Salvadoran death squads in the 1980s. When his country called again in 2003, he came out of retirement to train Iraqi police commandos in the bloodiest techniques of counterinsurgency that evolved into that countrys Shia-Sunni civil war that at its peak killed 3,000 people a month. Steele now lives in a gated golf community in Brian, Texas, and did not respond to requests for an interview for the documentary bearing his name.

Another example of a garwshucks, tea party, love 'er or leave 'er crowd meme.

I didn't attack you, personally or otherwise, George. You have stated, more than once, that you support, completely and unequivocally, the USA, a country that has bested (kinda ironic that 'bested' can be used to describe such an agglomeration of evil) both Stalin's and Nazi Germany's record for slaughtering innocents. The only difference is that the USA has been much sneakier about their evil, and they have covered their tracks better with the world's most successful propaganda system.

Yet another of many, OGFT avoidance posts.How did it come to be that there was molten steel in WTC7, OGFT, when there was, purportedly, no fuel available to melt that steel? -------------- http://www.consensus911.org/point-tt-6/ I-A. The 2002 FEMA Report New York Times journalist James Glanz, writing near the end of 2001 about the collapse of WTC 7, reported that some engineers said that a combination of an uncontrolled fire and the structural damage might have been able to bring the building down, but that this would not explain, according to Dr. Barnett, steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated in extraordinarily high temperatures.[13] Glanz was referring to Jonathan Barnett, a professor of fire protection engineering at the Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI). Early in 2002, Barnett and two WPI colleagues published an analysis of a section of steel from one of the Twin Towers, along with sections from WTC 7, as an appendix to FEMAs 2002 World Trade Center Building Performance Study.[14] Their discoveries were also reported in a WPI article entitled The Deep Mystery of Melted Steel, which said: teel which has a melting point of 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit may weaken and bend, but does not melt during an ordinary office fire. Yet metallurgical studies on WTC steel brought back to WPI reveal that a novel phenomenon called a eutectic reaction occurred at the surface, causing intergranular melting capable of turning a solid steel girder into Swiss cheese. Stating that the New York Times called these findings perhaps the deepest mystery uncovered in the investigation, the article added: A one-inch column has been reduced to half-inch thickness. Its edges which are curled like a paper scroll have been thinned to almost razor sharpness. Gaping holes some larger than a silver dollar let light shine through a formerly solid steel flange. This Swiss cheese appearance shocked all of the fire-wise professors, who expected to see distortion and bending but not holes.[15] In discussing the deepest mystery, the New York Times story said: The steel apparently melted away, but no fire in any of the buildings was believed to be hot enough to melt steel outright.[16] That was an understatement, because a building fire, even with a perfect mixture of air and fuel, could at most reach 1,000°C (1,832°F).[17] In fact, Professor Thomas Eagar of MIT estimated that the fires were probably only about 1,200 or 1,300°F [648 or 704°C].[18]