JerrySeinfeld

Kimmy, that may well be true. And the lack of strong support for the topic is bolstered by the massive influx of easterners into the province - with roots elsewhere. But let's talk seriously about it for a moment. Aside from outdated nationalist sentiments, can you think of what Alberta gets out of confederation? Or put another way: look at the benefits of secession. The pure wealth. The self-determination. The lack of millions being funnelled to Ottawa each month. Not being told what to do by someone else. There are a lot of benefits to secession - logically speaking. Not too many benefits to confederation, logically speaking, for Albertans or Western Canadians. Even better would be a Canada without Quebec. Think of the peace, the prosperity, the self control our country would have in the absense of Quebec. Go Quebec Go!

Too busy paying for your healthcare, guyser.

I don't complain about quebec separatism! I cheer for it. PLEASE. LEAVE. Again: Plleeeeeeease. LEAVE! The only reason the separatist movement in Alberta isn't stronger is because it's now full of a bunch of Easterners who moved out west where the real future is.

It is? Wow. Torontonians are more delusional that I thought. And I don't just mean about Brian Burke being a "saviour". hahahahahahahaa

I'd rather a country where the gov't leaves everyone alone than a country run by quebec and toronto lawyers who think they can tell everyone else how to live their lives, then grubs onto power and proves it. As for ALberta Blue's comments, civil war wouldn't be necessary. Ontarians and Quebecers are a bunch of wuss-ass socialist peaceniks. They'd turtle like Sean Avery in a hockey fight.

I am seriously starting to hate this f*cking country. The liberals have been shrivelled to a party hiding out in a barricaded hovel called "Toronto" witha leader who just resigned a month and a half ago and somehow they've still found a way to get their grubby hands on power, make the resigned leader into a "Primeminister" and hand the country over to quebec and the socialists - yet again. I am freaking livid. :angry:

I'd like to see a western separatist movement. Saskatchewan, BC, Alberta. What a wealthy country! Quebec and Ontario can rot and stew in their own juices and find someone else's cash to prop up their obsolete manufacturing economies. This coalition SHOULD be the last straw. The reason these 3 jackasses from the "Bloc Torontois" think they can lay their grubby hands on power and do whatever they please with it and our money is because they always have. If the west had a serious separation movement, we would hold WAY more clout than quebec. Quebec is a joke. They have the most unsuccessful separation movement in the history of the qworld, which ba sically implies it's a farce - it's not real. It's a hijack. ANd now Jack Layton and the Liberals are party to it. DIsgusting.

Oh really? That sounds more like an accurate description of the Liberals' behavior in all of this. Getting their grubby hands on power, even at the cost of ransom to a separatist party, and in conflict with the voting public.

Precisely. Our society is oversensitive. Back in the day fighting the germans, the nation got behind the effort. Those black and white "news films" being shown in the theaters didn't depict the "terrible behavior" of soldiers and question the effort. Nations went to war together. But don't kid yourself. If you think we kicked the Germans' ass twice without a little "push" here and there, you're living in a dreamworld. Now? We've ghettoized war. Soldiers are "evil torturers" and the "national effort" is for shit. Victory isn't newsworthy - as we can see now in Iraq - only our own country's misbehaviors are - despite the complete disgusting nature of our enemy's behaviors. In the Arabic world, they put pictures of suicide martyrs on grade school bulletin boards, in coffee shops and in public as POSITIVE role models. In our country, we decry a "poor treatment" (judgement call) of a few prisoners in abu graib.

Yay! Change for the sake of change - sounds intelligent and well thought out. By the way - this isn't about resisting change. It's about objectively wrong behavior - for example genital mutilation or oppression of women. Don't forget - the west is the society that has embraced such things as women's and gay rights. It's Islam that wants to change us back - as in backwards. I can understand to the unintelligent how this kind of thinking might represent something "new" because you haven't seen a muslim woman gangraped then sentenced to 6 months in prison for "socializing with a man outside her family" in your own hometown lately. However, it's not really "change" to something ew. It's reversion to the old. The "christian right" is often, tirelessly, relentlessly and thoughtlessly used as a red-herring in response to complaints about certain objectively wrong Islamic beliefs. But I'd just like one question answered: When was the last time a harmless bible thumper from tennessee self-detonated in a public coffee shop? Thanks for the input.

Let's take a minute. Is our society POST cultural relativism? Cultural Relativism - ie. It's all relative. No culture's beliefs (no matter how mysoginistic or barbaric) can be judged as "good" or "bad", just "different". But have we actually passed this absurd doctrine? If you think about it, our own society (The Western World) is extremely good at self-flagellation - ie. we are exploiters, racists, environmental destroyers, greedy, etc etc etc. But we refuse to apply any criticism to any other culture we come into contact with. So have we actually moved past the "all cultures are equal and above judgement" to "all cultures are above judgement, except our own." ? We've seen countless examples on this forum whereby an objective assessment of some of the more undesirable traits of a particular religion - fundamentalism Islam - is made and met with knee-jerk criticism and accusations of "racism" or "you don't like those people". Mysoginy, oppression of women or anti-gay doctrine is apparently not objectively a bad thing anymore - especially if you dare bring it up in the context of "other cultures." Apparently fighting against these things is only allowed if you're fighting them in your own culture. So is that the answer? Perhaps the best chance fo Islam to advance and reconcile with the modern world is for that fight to occur from within. With that in mind, have a look at the following links and make your own...ahem judgements... of what some women insdie Islam are saying. "The Trouble With Islam Today" "The Price of Honour: Muslim Women Lift The Veil of Silence In The Islamic World" Excerpt: and on and on.... Books and sites like these - women inside Islam fighting for change and speakign out: is this our best chance for peace between Islam and the rest of the world?

Good point - the baby with the bathwater. But there needs to be some understanding here. I think it's unfair that every time someone like me points out a negative component of another (growing) culture within our society, values which may be in direct conflict with many of the very things left wingers usually espouse - ie. women's rights or gay rights -, every time someone like me points this out - people on the left kneejerk want to shut us up - squash the debate by hurling accusations about how "I don't like those people". It's not fair and it dumbs down the conversation. Let's face it: our society (Canada, or the west more generally) has become superb at "self flagellation" - ie. we are to blame for all the world's ills. "We're ruining the planet or exciercising cultural imperialism or exploiting people in far off lands or we're unfair to women or minorities." Personally I think that's a lot of bullshit, and that we're objectively the best, fairest and most successful of all societies in the world but I digress. I believe it is left winger who really aren't giving new cultures - such as the muslim community - their fair shake as a full fledged member of our society. The point is, if we can self criticize all day long about all of our "evils", then shouldn't new cultures within Canada too? If we're going to self examine the wrongs we may or may not be guilty of, as a community, isn't it in the utmost spirit of inclusiveness to include muslims, and others, in that conversation? ie what's wtong and how can it improve. To say "leave those poor muslims alone - don't ever bring up any negatives about their culture" is typical of a left wing version of racism: ie. Immigrants are like childeren who need to be cared for and coddled, not upstanding adult communities capable of accepting criticism. To shut down debate and say we can't talk about certain aspects of a culture which may be wanting is simply obtuse and unconstructive. What say you, BC Chick? I'm asking you specifically because you, at the very least, have displayed some semblance of reason as opposed to some of the other frothing-mouth liberal debate stiflers on here.

But hey, since you asked check out this link and scroll down to "women's rights". It's a discription of human rights in Saudi Arabia. And pay some particular attention to the section about the law / courts / etc: Yea, every country has it's problems with opression of women - right? rrrrriiiiight. Sounds JUST like Canada.

Yea. A hardcore Wahabbist theocracy keeping statistics about "violence against women". baaahahaha That just illustrates how ignorant those on the other side of this debate really are about the world. But just as an appetizer, why don't you have a gander of what the ideal world for a hardcore Islamist looks like: Link

Violence against women is a MAJOR problem in countries with Islamic theocracies. Do we really want to import that kind of thinking by "tolerating" men who strangle their own daughters because the Koran says it's ok?

Total AIDs population in Canada: less than 1% Canada's total contribution to carbon emissions: less than 1%

Well, maybe you should read the title of this thread if you think that. OK, so since you're not downplaying it, we can agree that this is a growing problem in the west and that it should be talked about and condemned by our society as something that is unacceptable in THIS culture? Speaking of up-playing small percentages, I'm on board with you guys! No more talk of trying to solve HIV/AIDS or reducing Canada's miniscule percentage of global carbon emissions then, ok?

That's a strawman fallacy. I never once said muslims are "the prime source of violence against women". You're missing my argument completely and trying to whitewash your error with accusations that my "goal is to bash muslims". My "goal", or rather, POINT, is that you are choosing to ignore a very real and growing concern about violence against women in this and other western countries. For the umpteenth time, this isn't about muslims so much as it is about you. The question isn't: "why is Jerry pointing out that there is a rising and growing issue in western countries concerning domestic violence against women" It is: "why would a bunch of left wing politically-correct junkies choose to ignore and downplay it?"

Wrong. I'm pointing out an identifiable cause: Fundamentalist Islamic Beliefs. If there are other identifiable causes - such as alcohol use for example, then it is valuable to bring those into the discussion as well. What ISN'T valuable is to ignore identifiable causes. In fact, it's destructive and ignorant. Suppose someone were to start a post about men who abuse alcohol and it's effect upon domestic violence. Wouldn't it be absurd to stand up on your high horse and pronounce that "we shouldn't be singling out men who abuse alcohol"? Of COURSE we should. We should single out any group or root cause of abuse. If the fundamentalist islamic faith has a deep rooted history of accepted violence against women, that's not my fault. Your pointing the finger in the wrong direction. As per usual.

Oh. Well the silence was deafening. Let's test the silence on How can you not condemn this? It's sick - your loyalty to "tolerance at all costs" trumps the safety of women? Disgusting.

Interesting you would bring that up. Here's a nice little quote from a prominent muslim leader in Australia, referring to an "unfair" sentence handed down to four gang-rape lebanese men: Link to the story

Oh really? The reason we have these marches every December 6th is to commemorate the montreal massacre - perpetrated by Gamil Gharbi - son of a muslim wife beater.

Interesting you would bring that up. Here's a nice little quote from a prominent muslim leader in Australia, referring to an "unfair" sentence handed down to four gang-rape lebanese men: Link to entire story.

Well, first of all, if a muslim man kills his daughter or wife, it's a pretty good chance she won't be showing up at a women's shelter any time soon. Second, if you're truly in favor of reducing violence against women, you'd be open to exploring one of the root causes of violence against women. That includes the mysoginistic and oppressive tendancies of the more devout forms of Islam. Walking down the street with placards chanting "stop violence against women" is an all too leftist concept citing problems without investigation causes or solutions. Actually getting down into the reality of the various causes of that violence - including the acceptance of wife beating and honour killings in the fundamentalist wing of the Islamic faith, would be more genuine. The issue here is that the left is so poised and ready with it's knee jerk "you don't like them" attitudes, that it is perversely completely willing to ignore the very real reality of muslim violence against women.

That's so obtuse. When someone says something that might not be part of the accepted rhetoric just paint them with the "racist" brush. How predictable and lacking in complexity. I don't like any aspect of religion which causes people to kill their daighters or wives. That's a problem for you? That's pretty screwed up. You're so obsessed with "accepted policially correct language", you can't even see the absurdity of your argument. This is another common problem with your ilk: you like to speak in empty, large platitudes (kind of like Obama) and use words like "hope", "diversity" etc.... or in this case, the "larger problem of violence against women" - without actually addressing specific REAL WORLD components of the problem. If you were truly in favour of solving a "larger problem of violence against women" - you'd be willing to, without prejudice or a blind eye, look directly at a very clear and direct relationship between certain harder aspects of the muslim religion and the opression and violence against women.