cannuck

I have never tried to be an appologist for the US, nor is this thread about the USA at all. It is about what socialism has done to other countries, and in this case, Venezuela. Not socialism as in social policy, but socialism as in Marxist ownership of the means of production. I wish you could learn to separate your ravenous dislike of the US from what needs to be done to keep other people alive or better yet comfortable. Regarding your Chinese post preceding, I don't think you are very well versed in China. I had an office there for nearly a decade, and worked there extensively throughout the Y2K +/- times. My business partner was one of the extremely few people who travelled extensively throughout China in the Mao years (one of only a handful of people to do so, particularly unique as he was intimately involved in the Nationalist side of the revolution). His Mother survived the Japanese occupation and raised a young son at that time, and walked him through the front lines of the Red Army in '46/'47. She was one of the most important influences in my life and teachers about reality. My best friend from China has just immigrated to SK so we can carry on business OUTSIDE of what you think is a glorious place. He left one of the very top positions in a national company (had 80,000 people under him) simply to be able to raise his son OUTSIDE of China. The Chinese Communist Party embraced many of the values of capitalism following the Four Pillars of Modern Reform - that essentially allowed state enterprises to act as state funded and extremely predatory "capitalists" - hardly by following the dictates of Chairman Mao. When you have lived and worked there in some senior capacity, come back and tell me about it. What I feel you have bought into is that old divisive strategy of the politics of fear and envy. Just because the US has done, and probably will do some very bad things, that does not make their system of governance and democracy bad, it makes the people who have abused it bad. The SAME thing applies to socialism: the theory is great, but because of the same thing - GREED - it works far worse than the US or Euro version of capitalistic democracies simply because it facilitates centralization of political and economic power that can result in the destruction of vibrant economies or millions of lives. It is not the ideology that is wrong, it is people that are bad.

Not trying to win a point, but trying to have people understand that genuinely Marxist socialist policies are more than window dressing for web discussions - they are what destroys economies and kill people. In theory, socialism is a great thing (and in fact, there is no such thing as a government today without some socialistic policies - literally for the good of the people). It falls apart, though, when you start into the state owning the means of production. Not only are governments totally inept and running any kind of business, once they have resources to squander, they then have the means to skim, and skim they do. In a Canadian context, Saskatchewan's flirtation with socialism meant that we had no growth in population from 1925 until 2005. Our best export was well educated children. It started with the Great Depression, but once the "cure" of decades of socialist experiments. The feds didn't do any better. The disaster of them owning airplane companies (deHaviland, Avro, etc.) and of course the Canadian Wheat Board were perfect examples of why government should be there to GOVERN, not to run things. Chairman Mao was a world class example as well: once the state took over the means of agricultural production, the starvation of about 100 million Chinese followed. This is what brings us back to Venezuela. The state in ANY country owns the resources and controls who gets to do what within their borders. Venezuela was just that when they had a government that managed the affairs of state and collected royalties, duties and taxes from resource companies. They were also a prosperous, wealthy country. Once the state took over the means of production, they removed EVERYONE from PDVSA (the national oil company) who did not openly align themselves with the Chavez government. As a result, PDVSA started to lose production of both crude oil and refined products. Chavez also used his power in control of the petro resources to try to displace US influence in SA and the Caricom, giving countries such as Cuba deals on petro that were far below market, and terms that meant little if any repayment. He literally bankrupted the country for one to maintain his policies and secondly to service the bond market who's indebtedness not only has drained the country, but mortgaged its future. Yes, Chavez was elected, and with a mandate to start the "Bolivarian Revolution". What the people did NOT bargain for was for him to seize control of the resources of the country and piss them away to the extent of impoverishing most of the population. He maintains this status by skimming billions a month into the hands of the military, judges of the Supreme Court and a few other friends. It is not a good situation.

Of course you have to support the Government of Venezuela. Jailing any political opposition, killing many of them, rewriting the Constitution to make a "president for life" with dictatorial powers. Replace everyone in state-controlled positions with party faithful. Blame the US for every problem to deflect attention from what human rights are being taken. Sound familiar? The difference between Venezuela using marxist/socialist platform vs. Erdogan using the Islamist one is that Chavez and then Maduro were able seize control of the resources of the country (about 95% of exports are petroleum - and Venezuela has the world's largest declared reserves) and fill the pockets of the judges, bureaucrats and most importantly the generals by raiding the treasure chest. Erdogan did not learn from the Russians how to pull this stuff off, so the military bit him. Maduro's plan to gain powers that Erdogan seeks will fail because he robbed so much of the value of the state, the people can't afford to eat or buy medicine.

Never heard of Petro Canada?????? Trudeau DID nationalize a part of the industry. The Sask NDP did as well. HQ of most of Canada's oil companies were in Regina and Moose Jaw until the NDP nationalized much of it - to Calgary's delight.

Could not agree more...except that with Morgenstern ancestry and Cohen business partners, I am thoroughly anti-zionist but hardly anti-semite. I should get an update from our Venezuelan associates when they come up to DC tomorrow. Will see what I can find and post (could be restricted).

The Magna Carta has been around since 1215, the US constitution was drafted in 1788. i could go on, but pointing out the very obvious would be "wasting time". BTW: the Regina Manifesto remained on the NDP website as their fundamental belief until it was quietly taken down a couple of years ago. MUCH to the chagrin of the hard core party faithful. Chavez just did what every aspiring Marxist party would do - and once they get there, the reality about socialist governments is that given the power to dispense privilege, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Maduro just turned the heat up another notch. BTW: to all of your socialists out there: remember how that Chairman Mao thing went down? Yeah, over 100,000,000 citizens dead. Careful what you wish for. Oh, yeah, you/we are "different". Read the Regina Manifesto and tell me that again.

And you don;t think getting armed to the teeth, taking pledge to give up your own life for the cause, flying half way around the world to attack your fellow citizens in a foreign country is NOT an "uncivil lynch mob??"

It is not his Father's sin he needs to be accountable for, it is his. Someone who is defending his country can be considered a citizen soldier. Someone who willingly (in this case it seems more than a little willing) goes to another country to kill soldiers who are his own countrymen and their allies is a terrorist, not a combatant. It is not a difficult concept. This particular terrorist gets a pass on his crimes because he was both a minor and a Canadian, but I can't understand how any reasonable person could be worried about a lynch mob going after Khadr and be delighted to reward Khard to the tune of $10.5mm for joining a lynch mob to go after Canadians and their allies. I hoped we had evolved beyond that.

Thank you. THAT is a precise summary of the issue that has been eluding the whole thread for 88 pages. Add to that, Dialamah's pertinent observation, and we should be done here.

It was on their website. Read it (even google can find it). Canadians need to know what it is the NDP believes in - and acted on. And, today, it is impossible to tell an NDP from a Leberal, it seems.

the Regina Manifesto stayedo n the NDP website until just a few years ago. If learning important things is wasting your time...well I guess ignorance really is bliss.

You see, that is EXACTLY what is used as an excuse to nationalize (and, let it be noted, I can understand when it is done for the right reasons and in the right way). Venezuela has the largest reserves of proven and producible crude oil on the planet (we probably have more if the whole of Athabasca Oil Sands is considered) and when those greedy exploiters ran the business, it was a prosperous and wealthy country. With the Bolivarian Revolution, the full scale of Marxist theology was applied and nationalization took place. BUT: what also happened was what we seem to see every time the left takes control of an economy - positions in the engine of the economy (PDVSA) were all filled by party faithful, displacing the skilled workers who had no affiliation. PDVSA today can not fulfill half of its obligations, either resource, financial or human - pretty much like any other government run institution anywhere on the planet. Worse yet, the whole thing has been run by a megalomaniac who tried to use the country's wealth to promote his own political vision on the regional scene. Chavez just simply gave much of the Caricom a free ride on PDVSA's and Venezuela's back. You see, the resources BELONG to the people, and the people have 100% of the power to charge those who they permit to extract them whatever they wish. That accountability is gone when the resources are in the hands of a political master. Also, exactly as has happened in so many other socialist revolutions: to maintain power, Chavez and now Maduro have cozied up to the officials of bureaucracies and the military and has been robbing the place blind to make them filthy rich - and maintain the President's base of power. The ports have become so dangerous (vessel owners and operators being shaken down) that nobody wants to allow their vessels to be exposed, so only "the generals" are shipping - and in the case of oil and oil products, to be sold by their minions for their own benefit. This is not only the problem of socialist states (although one can not help but notice that probably the wealthiest person on this planet supposedly has had nothing but his government paycheque for income - of course I mean Uncle Vlad) but common to almost all resource rich countries (Nigeria comes to mind).

Read the Regina Manifesto, and remember that the NDP nationalized potash, oil pipelines, telephones, insurance, electricity, gas - you name it - plunging Saskatchewan into a development dead end for 40+ years. Even the federal government has to be cited for nationalizing much of the aviation industry, had a go at oil and gas with Petro-Can, declared its own monopoly on food through the Canadian Wheat Board. The leftist who did his very best to stall the end of the CWB is now Minister of "Public Safety" in the little Trudeau cabinet. Ever hear about cream quotas? Supply management is alive, if not very well.

Why is it that nobody has posted about the problems in Venezuela? It certainly is a prominent and very political issue. My guess is that the abject failure of the Bolivarian Revolution hits too close to home for the left in Canada.

I think you will find that the #1 is actually cultivation of marijuana.

I do feel sorry for those who have been displaced, dispossessed or even just inconvenienced, but there is another side to this story. Coniferous forests have been burning forever - and some species require fire to release their seeds. We build houses out of kindling in areas that are heavily forested, and the put out the fires that would naturally make them more stable and then everyone is surprised when a really hot fire consumes their kindling structure. Kind of like those who build homes at ground level on a flood plane, then get flooded out. Couldn't see that one coming. BTW: I would like to see the numbers for contribution of forest fires to the CO2 issue that the climate changers think is due to cars driving to work.

First of all, please let me thank you and whoever pays your bills for the time and effort you put into participating in this and other debates on this website. I really DO appreciate what some people who have studied the law try to do in what they believe is the "right thing". HOWEVER (and this is a big however) the many times I have had to become involved with the process, it is precisely because I see practicioners at all levels applying the law precisely to suit their political and/or financial agenda, not to protect any kind of rights that are assumed to exist for Canadian citizens. This Khadr compensation thing is a perfect example. I hope you can take my criticisms as intending to be constructive, as I would not want to dull your idealistic image of the institution - just help you appreciate from a framework of reality the level of scum that abuses it - "in the name of the law".

The crown gets caught RED HANDED FLAT OUT LYING THEIR ASS OFF - which nobody else had ever been able to prove in other court actions . except when the same guy handed them their ass on the Sawatsky case, the judge admits there was no offence committed, and THEN he gets jailed for an offence that never happened - and was proven so? If you think that is "poor lawyering" you have a lot to learn about the law. BTW: not a single lawyer in Canada had the balls to take this one on. Your ignorance of the case matches your dissregard for the travesty of justice the same Minister shoved down Canada's throat with Khadr. You must be contemplating running for president of the fed Libs.

Oh....geee.....wait 'till I can get up from LMFAO!!!!!!!! I have referred a number of times in this thread as to what your precious Minister of "Public Safety" did to Andy McMechan when he committed the egregious crime of selling his own barley...LEGALLY (as clearly pronounced by Mr. Justice Ross Whimmer). Straight to jail for an offence allegedly committed under a different act as a result of doing something that was not at all illegal, again as pointed out by the same judge who locked him up in what was nothing but a kangaroo court. Then there are the other higher profile cases: David Milgaard, Larry Fisher, Donal Marshall, and on it goes. Yes, we let them out of jail - 20 years after locking them up on trumped up charges (my applogies to the Donald). Anyone with any interest or knowledge could go on to cite hundreds of cases.

So was EVERYTHING the Khadr family did with respect to al Qaeda since they came to Canada, and in ANY place, highly illegal (treasonous) what was done by dear old Dad and Omar when they left Canada to perpare for and attack Canadian soldiers and/or their allies.

I am not TRYING to do, reality is that is exactly what was done and why.

That's the point: we can not have them on our soil, for obvious legal and moral reasons. Problem is: our laws based on all of those things I mentioned simply don't anticipate a Canadian family funding and participating in something beyond our cultural and ethical (not to mention legal) norms, then running back here to seek our welfare and protection of our personal rights and freedoms as citizens.

Which is exactly why the US had to have Gitmo, and also rely on foreign powers to "handle" detainees. We are constrained by a set of laws that assume a society based upon truth, integrity, accountability and a general intent to do good - mostly made possible because we have a business climate based on the same that has allowed the incredible prosperity for us to afford this navel gazing. When you are forced to deal with an enemy that is not bound by any of those constraints, you need to find a proxy who can deal with them on their own terms.

Can tell you have probably had NO exposure to young offenders either before or in those years right after their coming of age. Secondly: to a jihadist, death is the reward, not the punishment. So you are saying it was one thing for him to do what he did because he should have feared death, but what he was trained and compelled to do was 100% likely to result in his death and that was obviously NOT a deterrent to his criminal activity. In my interesting times, I have had the tremendous privilege and pleasure of getting to know many Vietnamese refugees who came to Canada three + decades ago. A child raised under war conditions does not mature at the same rate that a molly-coddled suburbanite who's greatest fear is losing his cell phone text privileges for a day. It was common practice for Vietnamese boys EXACTLY at the age of Omar to amputate their own trigger finger to avoid conscription and thus being forced to kill their countrymen. IF Khadr had any moral compass at all, he probably had many opportunities to escape from his situation, but he did not. He instead by all reports enthusiastically went forward to potentially kill his countrymen and fellow citizens.

Yes, you got that right. Problem is: our governments do exactly that: choose which person's "rights" make the best political hay to either support or suppress. You just had to live through the experience of watching Ralph Goodale and our courts lock up a Canadian farmer for the egregious crime of legally selling his own crop to fully appreciate what I mean, and then be told daily that he could walk out of his cell at any time if he would just declare his separation from Farmers For Justice. Goodale and the little Trudeau did this once more by supporting Khadr - except this time they pissed off 71% of the entire country.