1 of every 300 Canadian die of Medical error in 10 years

[bjre]

Two Chinese community patients Ms. Chen Xiu Lan and Ms. Pan Min Hong, died while in labor at Scarborough Hospital within six months period is shocking and outraging the community. Increasingly, Chinese women have said that they want to fly back to China to deliver their babies.

He Geshen, hasband of Pan MinHong, went protest Yesterday, today, and tomorrow from 11:00am to 3:00pm at the door of Scarborough Grace Hospital.

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J04Q37.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J524K4.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J43c91.jpg

He ([email protected]) wants to find a Lawyer who is able to sue the hospital because he can do it only in two years, now, one year has already passed.

From Chinese community media, the important factors were not included in the record prepared by hospital, include patient cough, legs shaking. And blood did not prepared for emergency.

Medical errors killing up to 24,000 Canadians a year, http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2004/06/09/...rors040609.html

That would be at least 100,000 Canadians for 10 years, if the population of Canada is 30,000,000, that means one of each 300 Canadians die from medical error in 10 years. IT CAN HAPPEN TO YOU SOME DAY.

I think, we need change, we need to change laws.

The hospital is unable to comment on any patient information due to confidentiality legislation.

Hospital also refuse to give the report prepared by U of T professor to the victim family.

I think in many similar cases, the facts were hide, so that the unqualified doctors can still earn money with their oganizations.

I think we need to abolish the related laws so that such kind of facts can be known by public.

The laws that provent public to know unqualified doctors should be abolished.

The laws that help hospitals to hide the fact should be abolished.

The laws prevent immigrants to be a doctor or open their private hospital should be abolished so that they can compete with the existing hospitals. They can be shut after they cause problem. I think they will not cause more problems than the existing system that kills one Canadian out of every 300 in 10 years.

[Smallc]

Wow, a report from back when there was not enough money and far fewer people in the system.

[bjre]

The laws prevent immigrants to be a doctor or open their private hospital should be abolished so that they can compete with the existing hospitals. They can be shut after they cause problem. I think they will not cause more problems than the existing system that kills one Canadian out of every 300 in 10 years.

I think no murder in Canada is so evil that kills one of every 300 Canadians in 10 years.

[Smallc]

Well, there are conflicting studies that I have read that disagree with the one in the CBC article (not to mention that it says BETWEEN 9000 and 24000), but assuming it's true, I happen to know that a good deal of progress has taken place in many provinces since then. The healthcare system isn't what it was in 2003. There is also evidence that the US has similar numbers.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

It's probably true for much of the world.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Smallc

[bjre]

Well, there are conflicting studies that I have read that disagree with the one in the CBC article, but assuming it's true, I happen to know that a good deal of progress has taken place in many provinces since then. The healthcare system isn't what it was in 2003.

What has been improved, is there any new mechanism to prevent it from happening?

Are there any legislation changes to prevent those?

Why it still happen?

Pan's mother was a doctor in China for more than 20 years. She was with her daughter that day. She is very sure her daughter's won't die if she was the doctor that day. She did give some suggestions to the doctor that day when the doctor ignored all.

You can argue, you can disagree, until someday, it happen to someone you know well.

[bjre]

There is also evidence that the US has similar numbers.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

It's probably true for much of the world.

So what, because US is worse, it is correct so many patinents should die in hospital because medical error without any substantial change?

[Smallc]

So what, because US is worse, it is correct so many patinents should die in hospital because medical error without any substantial change?

There are changes made all of the time. Human error will never end, but we can make it less common.

[Sir Bandelot]

I have worked in the system for over 22 years. Incompetence is rampant. These numbers are probably lower than actual reality, due to cover ups and no investigations.

People die also because of lack of proper funding, closing down services and lack of oversight in proper spending of the money- as in my case, where hospital management spends thousands a year to go on trips, "conferences" which include fancy dinners and entertainment events, yet the technical staff are denied proper training courses to upgrade their skills. That is just one small example.

The reality of hospital life is not like "ER".

Edited May 23, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[bush_cheney2004]

...There is also evidence that the US has similar numbers....

Well, why didn't you say so as that makes all the difference in the world! If the Americans do it too, and they be the preferred benchmark for all things from soft toilet paper to clean air legislation, then it must be A-OK...or at least the best Canada should care about.

Edited May 23, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

What I was showing was that numbers are similar throughout the western world.

[bush_cheney2004]

What I was showing was that numbers are similar throughout the western world.

The "western world" is a large data domain, with significant standard deviation.

[Smallc]

right, and that article talked about many countries....including our closest neighbour.

[Oleg Bach]

When you met a doctor - study him quickly the way you would a lawyer - Is he kind - is he loving - is he talented - is he a healer? When he touches you do you feel better - or do you cringe? Most people assume that if someone has a medical degree, that they are to be respected - some doctors can inadvertantly kill you - and some are so spiteful they will even harm you - because the are overly power orientated...

Once I ended up laying in emerge with a bad appendix - in the operating room I looked up and saw this lunitic - his name was "Dr. Bat" - he turned up the corners of his surgical bonnet to resemble bat wings and thought he was funny as I lay there almost dead - then the "family doctor" popped up by the operating table - he was NOT my doctor but the physician of my wife - he hated my guts...he laughed at me - and said ' You are a fat bastard" - then they put me under...well I was plump at the time -----to make a long story short - they burst my appendix and I ended up with paritinitis...and dozens of surgical staples in my bowel - they butchered me..

This was during a doctor's strike - as I lay in my bed with tubes coming out all over the place - a "replacement" nurse arrives - I used to hop into a cab at night and sleep in my own bed then return in the morning - this German accented nurse discovered that I was missing - she took hold of my stitches and gave them a yank - saying "where where you last night?' THEN the old witch began to change my dressing - she dropped the fresh dressing on the floor - then picked it up and attempted to take the soiled bandage and place it on my wound - I looked at here sternly and said "Don't you dare put that on me" - YES my friends if you are weak they can harm you - with intent or without - and if you can not advocate for yourself - you need a watchmen.

[bush_cheney2004]

right, and that article talked about many countries....including our closest neighbour.

Denmark?

[Oleg Bach]

Denmark?

There is something rotten in Denmark!~ BC - I will never forget a young woman who was crying in a hospital chapel - she came in to remove a tattoo - The doctors punctrued her bladder - how the hell could they do such a thing - were they jacked up on their own dope! For instance my mother was dying of kidney failure - they had a program - a cheap form of dyalisis...Peritaneal --- the would take a five dollar bag of fluid and pump it into the parateneal cavity and expect the sack to act as a filter....compared to a 50 thousand dollar machine - this was the way to go for medical economists- out of the fifty in the ward - all ended up brain damaged and in the fetal postion - I asked if there are side effects to this treatment - the said no...Then she suffered repeated strokes from the pain of this proceedure - once she was dead mentally then phyiscally they told me that the side effects was "stroking" - where as my mother in law is into her fouth year - she gets super expensive drugs and the finest machine to do the procedure of blood cleaning outside the body..she is sick but thriving compared to my mother -

Point being - they experimented on my mothers group - then closed down the program once everyone was dead...the poor woman would beg - get me out of here" - It bothered me that they knew there cheap treatment tortured the patient - but the experiment was more important to the institution than the people.

[M.Dancer]

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J04Q37.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J524K4.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2009/05/5_0J43c91.jpg

We need to raise money so this chap can get bigger signs.

[xul]

We need to raise money so this chap can get bigger signs.

I'm afraid it seems you are correct....

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We need to call our MLA's and MP's and get on their case to reform the system.

[xul]

Two Chinese community patients Ms. Chen Xiu Lan and Ms. Pan Min Hong, died while in labor at Scarborough Hospital within six months period is shocking and outraging the community. Increasingly, Chinese women have said that they want to fly back to China to deliver their babies.

I have read a post in a Chinese immigrant forum writing by a person who alleged he was once a doctor in China. It said that Ms.Pan's death was caused of amniotic fluid embolism(AFE) and her husband's accusation to the hospital was wrong. There is a link of amniotic fluid embolism in a Chinese medical website: amniotic fluid embolism，AFE

羊水栓塞（amniotic fluid embolism，AFE）是产科的一种少见而危险的并发症。发生率文献报道不一致，为1∶5000～1∶80000，但病死率高达50％～86％。据全国孕产妇死亡调研协作组报道，1984～1988年间，全国21个省、市、自治区孕产妇死亡共7485例，羊水栓塞占孕产妇死亡总数的5.4％，居死因顺位的第4位。

The quotation said, "Amniotic Fluid Embolism, AFE, is a rare but vital syndrome in obstetrics. The incident of the syndrome is 1:5000 to 1:80000, but about 50% to 86% patient would died if the syndrome happened. According to statistics, during 1984 to 1988, add up to 7485 lying-in women dead in 21 provinces of China and AFE caused 5.4% of the cases of the death. AFE is the 4th the cause of the death."

There is another link about amniotic fluid embolism in WIKIPEDIA,amniotic fluid embolism, it says the same with the Chinese medical website.

Amniotic fluid embolism (AFE) is a rare and incompletely understood obstetric emergency in which amniotic fluid, fetal cells, hair or other debris enters the mother's blood stream via the placental bed of the uterus and triggers an allergic reaction. This reaction then results in cardiorespiratory (heart and lung) collapse and coagulopathy. It was first formally characterized in 1941.[1] On the list of causes of maternal mortality, it is fifth.[2]

The condition is so rare (between 1 in 8000 and 1 in 80,000 deliveries, although more recent studies show 1 in 20,464 deliveries for a more accurate number)[3] that most doctors will never encounter it in their professional careers, and as a result the exact process is poorly understood. However, it is believed that once the fluid and fetal cells enter the maternal pulmonary circulation a two-phase process occurs:

We must understand that doctors are not living buddhas, they can not save every patient by magic or something. I'm not sure whether or not that the doctors really had some fault , but I think Mr.He should better conside his lawyer's opinion, facing the reality that the evidence is not favor his allegation.

Edited May 24, 2009 by xul

[Oleg Bach]

We need to call our MLA's and MP's and get on their case to reform the system.

Once the sytem gets huge - The quality of the practioners decline - attitudes form - money becomes more important than doing a good job - and with vast numbers of patients coming through the door - eventually doctors can not help but look at them as just more meat - at 100 dollars a pop.. The College of Phycians and Surgeons need to be taken aside and given a good talking too. Old values of what a doctor was must be re-instilled - I was taken back when a young Asian student was being interviewed - "I want to be a doctor because the money is real good" --- how many of those now clutter up the system?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

To "fix" the system we need more medical staff. That is the key to resolving the "wait times" issue. More to the point we need to do a major service delivery reform if we have any hope of dealing with the problems we have. Look at the cost of delivering those services. How many people are going to "emergency" departments at hospitals for non-critical care! The cost is horrific and the system is slowed down through the effort of this type of service delivery. This is more of a problem than most people realize.

[Oleg Bach]

To "fix" the system we need more medical staff. That is the key to resolving the "wait times" issue. More to the point we need to do a major service delivery reform if we have any hope of dealing with the problems we have. Look at the cost of delivering those services. How many people are going to "emergency" departments at hospitals for non-critical care! The cost is horrific and the system is slowed down through the effort of this type of service delivery. This is more of a problem than most people realize.

Every Saturday night across Canada - thousands attend the emergency rooms at a cost of millions - all suffering from a diseased called lonelyness. There are those with the sniffles and those who are bored and poor and like the entertainment value. Our system has grown huge with the influx of immigrants and a rapidly growing aged populace...what it was designed for 30 years ago does not exist - it's a new game.

[Oleg Bach]

To "fix" the system we need more medical staff. That is the key to resolving the "wait times" issue. More to the point we need to do a major service delivery reform if we have any hope of dealing with the problems we have. Look at the cost of delivering those services. How many people are going to "emergency" departments at hospitals for non-critical care! The cost is horrific and the system is slowed down through the effort of this type of service delivery. This is more of a problem than most people realize.

Every Saturday night across Canada - thousands attend the emergency rooms at a cost of millions - all suffering from a diseased called lonelyness. There are those with the sniffles and those who are bored and poor and like the entertainment value. Our system has grown huge with the influx of immigrants and a rapidly growing aged populace...what it was designed for 30 years ago does not exist - it's a new game.

[xul]

To "fix" the system we need more medical staff. That is the key to resolving the "wait times" issue. More to the point we need to do a major service delivery reform if we have any hope of dealing with the problems we have. Look at the cost of delivering those services. How many people are going to "emergency" departments at hospitals for non-critical care! The cost is horrific and the system is slowed down through the effort of this type of service delivery. This is more of a problem than most people realize.

Someone told me that the lacking of doctors is due to that most experienced Canadian doctors have moved to American private hospitals for better income because Canadian state-runned system can not pay them very well.

[bjre]

We must understand that doctors are not living buddhas, they can not save every patient by magic or something. I'm not sure whether or not that the doctors really had some fault , but I think Mr.He should better conside his lawyer's opinion, facing the reality that the evidence is not favor his allegation.

Someone told me that the lacking of doctors is due to that most experienced Canadian doctors have moved to American private hospitals for better income because Canadian state-runned system can not pay them very well.

From your comments, it seems that you deserve a poor medical care, and you will face that with grateful even when someday you or your family member will be so lucky to become the 1/300.

Edited May 24, 2009 by bjre