Tale of Two Commemorations - Jewish & Muslim

[jbg]

The contrast between Jewish and Muslim observances of military tragedies, discussed below, illustrate the reasons for my growing admiration for Islam which, but for multiculturalism, I'd be kept in suppressed ignorance about.

Shortly after this weekend is the most solemn holiday of the Jewish year, one that mourns the destruction by Babylonia of the First Temple and the Romans of the Second Temple, the holiday of Tisha B'Av (link to full discussion, excerpted below). It is the only Holiday where Jews traditionally wear black. In contrast to the better-known Yom Kippur, it is truly a day of mourning, whereas Yom Kippur is more redemptive. The Holiday is celebrated, by the wearing of black, and a 24 hour no food, no water fast (I do this for Yom Kippur, not Tisha B'Av.

Excerpts:

The restrictions on Tisha B'Av are similar to those on Yom Kippur: to refrain from eating and drinking (even water); washing, bathing, shaving or wearing cosmetics; wearing leather shoes; engaging in sexual relations; and studying Torah. Work in the ordinary sense of the word [rather than the Shabbat sense] is also restricted. People who are ill need not fast on this day. Many of the traditional mourning practices are observed: people refrain from smiles, laughter and idle conversation, and sit on low stools.

The Muslims mark a similar tragedy, the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad at the Battle of Karbala on 10 Muharram in the year 61 AH (December 10, 680 AD) on a holiday known as Ashoura in the manner excerpted below (link).

Excerpts:

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Tens of thousands of Shiite Muslim men, some beating their chests and slashing their heads with blades, marched along city streets throughout the Middle East on Tuesday to mark Ashoura.

*************

In the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, thousands of Shiite men walked in circles in the town square, many slashing their heads with swords and then pounding the wound with the palm of their hand. They wore white sheets as symbolic shrouds, which also served to absorb the blood.

*************

Men brought their young sons, parts of their heads shaven, to a hall in Nabatiyeh where a man cleansed a pocketknife with alcohol before striking each boy several times on the head. Some boys cried and resisted, but the cutting proceeded.

“We’re used to it,” said Mahmoud Jaber, 43, who brought his five boys to slash their heads. “We’ve been doing this since we were kids. I started when I was three. It doesn’t hurt because the cry of pain goes away with the faith.”

Another participant, Abbas Mahmoudi, an engineer, explained why he cut himself by saying: “If the intention is sincere, then I will be rewarded (by God).”

**************

To me, the Muslim ceremony is more genuine, more sincere and one that we should emulate. I suggested, in Temple tonight, that the Jews add avenging the Temple's destruction. Someone raised a practical problem that there were no Babylonians to "avenge" against. I suggested the random slaughter of any non-Jewish people using suicide bombs, planes into buildings, to make the holiday more meaningful.

The idea did not receive an overwhelming response, unfortunately.

[jbg]

Only on MLW could you get 78 views, and no responses. Got to love it.

[White Doors]

Your post says it all jbg. what more else is there to say?

[M.Dancer]

The idea did not receive an overwhelming response, unfortunately.[/b][/font][/color]

What they need is someone to lead by example.

If it helps I shaved that day and gave my self a nasty nick....

[Black Dog]

Only on MLW could you get 78 views, and no responses. Got to love it.

Shorter jbg: "Validate me! Pleeeeeeeeeeease!"

Sad? Or pathetic?

Edited August 13, 2008 by Black Dog

[jbg]

Shorter jbg: "Validate me! Pleeeeeeeeeeease!"

Sad? Or pathetic?

Black Dog, what's your response on the merits? Or do you have one?

[JB Globe]

Shorter jbg: "Validate me! Pleeeeeeeeeeease!"

Nail.

Hit.

Head.

[Black Dog]

Black Dog, what's your response on the merits? Or do you have one?

I would have thought the consenus view on the merits of the OP was apparent by the sound of crickets that greeted it. But if you must know, dressing like The Undertaker and abstaining from pork and work, eating a cracker as a substitute for human flesh or slashing one's head open with a knife are all simply manifestations of the same irrational belief in magic that unites all religions. Arguing yours is superior because its devotions towards an imaginary sky-god are less crazy than those of other sects is faint praise at best.

Feel better now that someone's paying attention to you?

Edited August 15, 2008 by Black Dog

[August1991]

I would have thought the consenus view on the merits of the OP was apparent by the sound of crickets that greeted it. But if you must know, dressing like The Undertaker and abstaining from pork and work, eating a cracker as a substitute for human flesh or slashing one's head open with a knife are all simply manifestations of the same irrational belief in magic that unites all religions. Arguing yours is superior because its devotions towards an imaginary sky-god are less crazy than those of other sects is faint praise at best.

Judging by some of the various piercings and tattoos that I see on the streets of Montreal, it seems to me that self-flagellation is not an exclusive trait of the religious.

IOW, even if poeple were to become agnostic, atheist or areligious (I'm not certain of the correct term nowadays), they would probably still indulge in bizarre practices.

[guyser]

Judging by some of the various piercings and tattoos that I see on the streets of Montreal, it seems to me that self-flagellation is not an exclusive trait of the religious.

And any visit to a leather shop would confirm that. ...or attendance at a Gay Pride parade would do the same.

IOW, even if poeple were to become agnostic, atheist or areligious (I'm not certain of the correct term nowadays), they would probably still indulge in bizarre practices.

Yup, some people eat vegemite, some eat haggis, and the truely bizarre eat peanut butter w banana

[jbg]

The Undertaker[/url] and abstaining from pork and work, eating a cracker as a substitute for human flesh or slashing one's head open with a knife are all simply manifestations of the same irrational belief in magic that unites all religions. Arguing yours is superior because its devotions towards an imaginary sky-god are less crazy than those of other sects is faint praise at best.

It is not "faint praise" that one religion's ceremonies are reflective, cerebral and meaningful, and another's are almost invariably bloody messes:

1. Ashuara;
   
2. The annual Hajj stampede chaos and slaughter Pilgrimage; and
   
3. Fatal stampedes at weddings
   

Feel better now that someone's paying attention to you?

I did not want for attention; 78 views means someone is reading it. Boards are about debate, not crickets.

[Black Dog]

It is not "faint praise" that one religion's ceremonies are reflective, cerebral and meaningful, and another's are almost invariably bloody messes:

1. Ashuara;

2. The annual Hajj stampede chaos and slaughter Pilgrimage; and

3. Fatal stampedes at weddings

Are you really going to bring up stampedes after the last time you got schooled on the subject? Last I checked stampedes are not actually part of any religious ritual, but a byproduct of poor organization and policing. Blaming stampedes on the religious practices of the devoted is like blaming this on excessive hora-ing.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Black Dog

[capricorn]

Boys 'flogged' in Muslim ritual

A man whipped himself until he bled during a Muslim religious ceremony, before allegedly forcing two teenage boys to do the same, a court has heard.

Syed Mustafa Zaidi, 44, is accused of encouraging the boys, aged 13 and 15, to beat themselves at a community centre in Manchester on 19 January.

Manchester Crown Court was played a film showing Mr Zaidi beating himself with a whip made of knives and chains.

Mr Zaidi, of Station Road, Eccles, denies two counts of child cruelty.

It is the first case of its kind ever to be prosecuted in the UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england...ter/7568953.stm

The first such case ever to be prosecuted in the UK? Does this mean there were other cases but no prosecution? I hope not.

Some rituals are best not imported to other countries, as Zaidi perhaps learned. This is one case I'll follow to see what sentence is handed down.

[jbg]

Are you really going to bring up stampedes after the last time you got schooled on the subject? Last I checked stampedes are not actually part of any religious ritual, but a byproduct of poor organization and policing. Blaming stampedes on the religious practices of the devoted is like blaming this on excessive hora-ing.

Then why is the "hora horror" almost unique and stampede sotries depressingly commonplace?

[DogOnPorch]

Then why is the "hora horror" almost unique and stampede sotries depressingly commonplace?

Indeed, they are rather common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj

----------------------------------------------

New York is not Mecca. It just smells like it.

---Neil Simon

[Black Dog]

Then why is the "hora horror" almost unique and stampede sotries depressingly commonplace?

I know you think the stampedes at Haji are another indicator that Muslims are untermenschen, but we've been through this before.

The frequency of stampedes in Mecca is a black mark on the people who organize it (if there are any at all), but it's no indication of the innate savagery of the people who participate, which was your point of contention. Large crowds+poor organization=trouble. In other words it's a logistical problem, and a recurring one. Not, as you say, a racial or ethnic or religious one.

[Rue]

Anyone can find both good and bad things in any religion. The point? I personally find it illogical to think one can onjetively compare religions using a rational method that could actually quantify that one is more moral or pure or valid or holy then another.

I find such exercises can do but one thing-incite intolerance.

I prefer my approach which is to consider all humans equally as smelly and sharing the same body odour.

You see one baboon yah seen them all. The fact that our bumbs have some differentation in their structure does not mean they aren't red and inflammed and we all know baboons regardless of the individua umbl variances use their inflamed bumbs for the exact same way-to stick them out and prance about trying to show another baboon how fierce they are.

Me I think all baboons should wear panties. A little modesty please.

My God is better then your God? Uh yah. Right.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Rue

[JB Globe]

Anyone can find both good and bad things in any religion. The point? I personally find it illogical to think one can objectively compare religions using a rational method that could actually quantify that one is more moral or pure or valid or holy then another.

Cosign - in the absence of any hard factual data, it's absolutely impossible to prove that any one religion is more moral than the other. Especially when they're so many other factors that may be contributing to the existence of certain social norms, customs, etc.

[Black Dog]

For a guy who was previously whining about nobody playing with him, jbg sure left the sandbox in a hurry.

[jbg]

For a guy who was previously whining about nobody playing with him, jbg sure left the sandbox in a hurry.

No. I've been dealing with real life issues, some happy, such as my two children being home from camp and school not started yet, and some sad, such as the need to assist in making decisions relating to my mother's cancer treatment. There is no need to personalize anyone's absence.

If you want an answer, PM or e-mail me. I respond a lot faster than when I have to wade through multiple post responses, including about 1800 in 10 hours on a weather board I post on, all about Hurricane Gustav.

The frequency of stampedes in Mecca is a black mark on the people who organize it (if there are any at all), but it's no indication of the innate savagery of the people who participate, which was your point of contention. Large crowds+poor organization=trouble. In other words it's a logistical problem, and a recurring one. Not, as you say, a racial or ethnic or religious one.

Why, even in the absence of an "organizer" don't most large gatherings, such as Jewish High Holy Day services or the Pope's funeral in Rome, turn into bloodshed? I don't think any "organizer" plays much of a role in keeping these events safe.

[Black Dog]

No. I've been dealing with real life issues, some happy, such as my two children being home from camp and school not started yet, and some sad, such as the need to assist in making decisions relating to my mother's cancer treatment. There is no need to personalize anyone's absence.

If you want an answer, PM or e-mail me. I respond a lot faster than when I have to wade through multiple post responses, including about 1800 in 10 hours on a weather board I post on, all about Hurricane Gustav.

Oh don't get me wrong: fewer posts from you on this subject is a good thing for all concerned.

Why, even in the absence of an "organizer" don't most large gatherings, such as Jewish High Holy Day services or the Pope's funeral in Rome, turn into bloodshed? I don't think any "organizer" plays much of a role in keeping these events safe.

The Haji pilgrimage attracts up to 4 million: that's like eight Woodstocks. Elements of this event also involve large numbers of people circulating in cramped or tight spaces, which will inevitably lead to some casualties. Find another event with such numbers in such conditions and you might have grounds for comparison.

[jbg]

Oh don't get me wrong: fewer posts from you on this subject is a good thing for all concerned.

And no concern for the human issues?

The Haji pilgrimage attracts up to 4 million: that's like eight Woodstocks. Elements of this event also involve large numbers of people circulating in cramped or tight spaces, which will inevitably lead to some casualties. Find another event with such numbers in such conditions and you might have grounds for comparison.

Woodstock and the Papal funeral would be the best analogs. Those events were far less lethal.

Even having a "stoning the devil" event when 4,000,000 people are present shows at the very least poor judgment.

[Black Dog]

And no concern for the human issues?

Spare us the faux concern.

Woodstock and the Papal funeral would be the best analogs. Those events were far less lethal.

Amd exponentially smaller in scale. Would now be a good time to mention Woodstock '99?

Even having a "stoning the devil" event when 4,000,000 people are present shows at the very least poor judgment.

Poor judgement by whom?

[cybercoma]

I would have thought the consenus view on the merits of the OP was apparent by the sound of crickets that greeted it. But if you must know, dressing like The Undertaker and abstaining from pork and work, eating a cracker as a substitute for human flesh or slashing one's head open with a knife are all simply manifestations of the same irrational belief in magic that unites all religions. Arguing yours is superior because its devotions towards an imaginary sky-god are less crazy than those of other sects is faint praise at best.

Feel better now that someone's paying attention to you?

The thread was really over after this post. I'm surprised its still pointlessly going.

But might I add a couple more bizarre practices....

- corporal mortification (Catholicism)

- the bris (Judaism)

So, yeah... what the heck are those morbid Muslims thinking?

Edited September 3, 2008 by cybercoma

[Rue]

The thread was really over after this post. I'm surprised its still pointlessly going.

But might I add a couple more bizarre practices....

- corporal mortification (Catholicism)

- the bris (Judaism)

So, yeah... what the heck are those morbid Muslims thinking?

O.k. cyber let me explain it. You live in the desert. Think sand. Now remember think sand. Now then, as you are thinking of sand, think uncut penis. Come now you can do it. Sand plus uncut penis.

Cutting one's foreskin may seem confusing to thou, but if you had an uncut penis and lived in a climate with sand, it would make a lot of sense.

Now you know all those halal and kosher dietary rules. Again they may seem a tad absurd unless of course the Maple Leaf food listeria bacteria issue reminds you of something.

See back then, such dietary rules kept people alive. They were based on observing what practices made people sick. Muslims and Jews don't eat pork because it was full of worms and they could not cure the meat and store it properly in a hot climate but they could eat other flesh that they identified would not carry such worms.

Muslims and Jews don't eat shellfish because they could have been filled with red tide algae which would make them toxic. Say now we all realize there is a reason one does not touch meat and then start touching other foods right?

Do we need to know milk and meat would cause intestinal problems if mixed particularly in a hot climate.

You know that silly beeny cap them Jews wear or that skull cap them Muslims wear? No its not to cover their bald spot well it is...but it simply stems from the fact if you come from a hot climate you soon stroke out if you don't wear a hat all the time.

Some of these bizarre rituals actually were based on common sense health practices that made sense in their time.

They of course lose their original context today and they can become quite wierd. For me as a Jew, I don't get the need for ultra-orthodox Jews to wear those big fur hats. I mean o.k. maybe in Russia if it was cold, you wore one. But why when its like a zillion degrees outside?

Mulsims well I only have one thing to say, make up your mind. Either grow a mustache and a beard or shave it off, this beard with no mustache, no. No. No. That goes for you Amish too. Make up your damn minds.

Me personally I hate anyone with a beard.

I also think that bib nuns were forced to wear was and is ridiculous since they all have double chins and it just makes them choke.

What is with all this black anyways. Can we not be more imaginative?

By the way, Jews are not the only one who cut their skin off their penises. Most people in hot climates had this practice including Muslims and many African tribes. Nothing personal. It was based on the heat and making it easier to keep the foreskin from smelling and getting infected.

Me personally I think we Jews should not eat sandwitches and drink coffee after the briss. That is barbaric. However I am told the child is drunk and feels nothing. Mine was done in the hospital. I know who did it. I am still looking for him.