DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 You might want to rethink your logic on that. Or your illogic...http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...ticle%2FPrinter In Dub Land....Jordanian Palestinains who have never set foot can come back, but the Jews can't. Those are the facts Jack You are quite right. Meanwhile, Yasser Arafat was STILL born in Cairo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 You might want to rethink your logic on that. Or your illogic...Until 1967, the West Bank was occupied by Jordan: it was actually formally annexed, and the Palestinian Arabs living there were considered Jordanians (and, even today, they often hold a Jordanian passport). But, tellingly, none of them called for an intifada against Jordan to create a Palestinian state in the West Bank, and none of the Palestinian Arabs ever fought against the Egyptians in Gaza, who had occupied the Gaza Strip since 1948. The fighting has always and exclusively been directed against Israel's existence. In Dub Land....Jordanian Palestinains who have never set foot can come back, but the Jews can't. Those are the facts Jack your comparisons are always lacking logic and your twisting of the situation leaves one thinking: "wtf are you talking about?" are you comparing jordan's so-called occupation of the region to israel's occupation? are you comparing jordan's agenda to the zionist agenda? did jordan try to segregate? did jordan attack villages and try to drive people out? and how the heck did you get 'jordanians who have never set foot... ' from the post you made? get off the ridiculous talk already. i have no patience for stupid debates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 are you comparing jordan's so-called occupation of the region to israel's occupation? are you comparing jordan's agenda to the zionist agenda? did jordan try to segregate? did jordan attack villages and try to drive people out? and how the heck did you get 'jordanians who have never set foot... ' from the post you made? You and history rarely have lunch together, do you? Jordanian forces killed several thousand Palestinians in the battles of September 1970, according to estimates. The PLO's independent military might suffered a major blow. Those were the circumstances which gave the name "Black September" to the events of the bloody month. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan What it like Sherlock? To be always without a clue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dub Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 you failed to respond to my comment and instead brought up something that has nothing to do with the questions: You and history rarely have lunch together, do you?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan What it like Sherlock? To be always without a clue? again: your comparisons are always lacking logic and your twisting of the situation leaves one thinking: "wtf are you talking about?" are you comparing jordan's so-called occupation of the region to israel's occupation? are you comparing jordan's agenda to the zionist agenda? did jordan try to segregate? did jordan attack villages and try to drive people out? and how the heck did you get 'jordanians who have never set foot... ' from the post you made? get off the ridiculous talk already. i have no patience for stupid debates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 i have no patience for stupid debates. And you have no brains for intelligent ones either. Sorry to have pawned you so badly...better luck next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 And you have no brains for intelligent ones either.Sorry to have pawned you so badly...better luck next time. Not to mention El Mufti had Jordan's king assassinated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I've seen quite a bit of 'defamation' and insults and put downs on here by people defending Israel's blockade and attack on Gaza. Many Jews are active in social justice movements, and while I can't speak for them I have spoken to them. Many are horrified by what Israel has done. Granted, perhaps it's a fine line - the difference between supporting Israel's existence and abhorring Israel's expansion beyond its legal borders. However, I think if, say Canada blockaded Alaska and shelled civilians, the distinction would be pretty easy. The distinction in my mind is ... are they living peacefully within their borders? Israel clearly is not. And it is not anti-semitic to say so any more than it would be anti-Canadian to say Canada shouldn't blockade and shell Alaska. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's clear you have no real understanding of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. That is to say, you don't understand how the military end of things played out on the ground over several different wars. Re: Legal borders....What is a legal border for Hamas/Hezbollah/Syria/Iran when the state isn't even recognized other than as 'The Zionist Entity'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) It's clear you have no real understanding of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. That is to say, you don't understand how the military end of things played out on the ground over several different wars.Re: Legal borders....What is a legal border for Hamas/Hezbollah/Syria/Iran when the state isn't even recognized other than as 'The Zionist Entity'? Let me ask you that: Where are the internationally agreed upon legal borders of Israel, in your view? Military conquest doesn't count - isn't legal anymore. Edited July 17, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I've seen quite a bit of 'defamation' and insults and put downs on here by people defending Israel's blockade and attack on Gaza. Many Jews are active in social justice movements, and while I can't speak for them I have spoken to them. Many are horrified by what Israel has done. Granted, perhaps it's a fine line - the difference between supporting Israel's existence and abhorring Israel's expansion beyond its legal borders. However, I think if, say Canada blockaded Alaska and shelled civilians, the distinction would be pretty easy. The distinction in my mind is ... are they living peacefully within their borders? Israel clearly is not. And it is not anti-semitic to say so any more than it would be anti-Canadian to say Canada shouldn't blockade and shell Alaska. There is a difference between valid criticism and discussion, and biased and single minded condemnation. When people discuss the of settlements, and how the settlement situation can be resolved, that is valid criticism. When people point out instances of civilian casualties and debate how Israel can minimize such occurrences in the future, that is valid discussion. But when organizations single out Israel as the sole recipient of their condemnation, or when people call the Jewish settlements a "cancer" (as dub has done), that is no longer legitimate debate. When people hold Israel to an impossible standard, forgetting what their own nation would do when faced with relentless terrorist attacks, that is imbalanced and biased. There is plenty of room for valid debate about Israel. But there certainly are also instances of bias, of the twisting of facts, and yes, sometimes of antisemitism. When dub calls the Jewish settlements a cancer what is that? That is almost exactly the same phraseology as the Nazi view on Jews, "vermin", or "an infestation". When lictor opens up with his rants about how Nazi Germany was the pinnacle of Western culture and achievement and how Jews brought the holocaust upon themselves, what is that if not antisemitism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Let me ask you that: Where are the legal borders of Israel, in your view? Since Israel was the victor in three wars started by the Arabs that moved these borders, anywhere they say it is. The only way the Arabs should have any say about this matter is via negotiation rather than continous warfare on their part. I think another reasonable stipulation would be that they (the Israelis) deal with a sincere government that recognizes Israel's existence rather than the modern continuation of the Grand Mufti's fascist movement (ie Fatah (PLO), Hamas, Hezbollah + numerous others carrying AK-47s, wearing hoods and giving the Nazi salute). Edited July 17, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) When people hold Israel to an impossible standard, forgetting what their own nation would do when faced with relentless terrorist attacks, that is imbalanced and biased. What do you think Canada would do/should do if penned in by military and naval blockades by the US? Because that's where the problem lies that gives rise to the Palestinian rockets. Edited July 17, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Military conquest doesn't count - isn't legal anymore. Can I expect your support at the 'Bring Back South-Viet-Nam' rally? What's illegal again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 What do you think Canada would do/should do if penned in by military and naval blockades by the US?Because that's where the problem lies that gives rise to the Palestinian rockets. Neither are run by an unreasonable terrorist group. Death by analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Can I expect your support at the 'Bring Back South-Viet-Nam' rally? What's illegal again? Well I guess that pretty much captures the disagreement: Israel thinks it can take over any land it can get its hands on by military might. Their neighbours disagree. So does the UN. Edited July 17, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Neither are run by an unreasonable terrorist group. Death by analogy. That's highly debatable, but irrelevant. Answer the question: What should/would Canadians do? Say the US blockaded Nova Scotia? Edited July 17, 2009 by tango Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 What do you think Canada would do/should do if penned in by military and naval blockades by the US?Because that's where the problem lies that gives rise to the Palestinian rockets. I don't know. What should we do? Should we start teaching our kids to be suicide bombers and start launching useless rockets across the border? Anyway, the question is meaningless, as it assumes a completely incorrect version of history - that Israel just suddenly decided to blockade Gaza and launch military incursions. That is not the case. Israel has been doing this to defend itself. If Canada was jam packed with terrorists that constantly launched rockets and sent suicide bombers into the US, I would expect the US would have long since annexed all of Canada, permanently imprisoned everyone suspected of having participated in the attacks, installed a puppet regime that would be friendly to America, and maintained an occupying force of tens of thousands for the next half century at least. And they would have had every right to do so. In fact, not being one of the terrorists, I probably would have been cheering them on, as my quality of life would improve substantially under an American puppet government compared to a regime ruled by terrorist madmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Irrelevant. Answer the question: What should/would Canadians do? If you're going to use an improbable analogy, tell me how it got to this state in the first place...the US besieging Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) Well I guess that pretty much captures the disagreement: Israel thinks it can take over any land it can get its hands on by military might. Their neighbours disagree. So does the UN. You might note that all this 'illegal war' stuff came about due to the Arabs losing each and every war with Israel they started. As I mentioned elsewhere...the Arab-Israeli conflict is the only conflict where the loser expects to get a do-over. Try that at a Vegas crap table after you blew a roll. tango: Can I have my money back and roll again?Pit boss: Security!! Edited July 17, 2009 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I don't know. What should we do? Should we start teaching our kids to be suicide bombers and start launching useless rockets across the border? Anyway, the question is meaningless, as it assumes a completely incorrect version of history - that Israel just suddenly decided to blockade Gaza and launch military incursions. That is not the case. Israel has been doing this to defend itself. If Canada was jam packed with terrorists that constantly launched rockets and sent suicide bombers into the US, I would expect the US would have long since annexed all of Canada, permanently imprisoned everyone suspected of having participated in the attacks, installed a puppet regime that would be friendly to America, and maintained an occupying force of tens of thousands for the next half century at least. And they would have had every right to do so. In fact, not being one of the terrorists, I probably would have been cheering them on, as my quality of life would improve substantially under an American puppet government compared to a regime ruled by terrorist madmen. If Gaza was not blockaded and under seige, they wouldn't be responding with rockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 If Gaza was not blockaded and under seige, they wouldn't be responding with rockets. Indeed...then the suicide bombers could get to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 If you're going to use an improbable analogy, tell me how it got to this state in the first place...the US besieging Canada. They decided they wanted a US settlement there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 If Gaza was not blockaded and under seige, they wouldn't be responding with rockets. Really now? Tell me, what happened when the Israelis pulled out of Gaza? That should have been a moment of a considerable increase in the freedom of Gazans. No more Jewish settlements, no more Israeli control of internal matters. You'd think they could have paused to celebrate for a few years, enjoyed their newfound increased level of autonomy (even if not yet fully state-like). Perhaps they could have negotiated with Israel over the course of a few years to slowly allow increased self-determination for the territory of Gaza, after such a significant step and gesture on behalf of Israel. But nope. They just started with the rocket barrages, as the Palestinians always do. Sounds like you might want to read up on your history some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 They decided they wanted a US settlement there. Ok nevermind, I thought you were a bit more sane than dub and kuzadd but I guess not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 Well I guess that pretty much captures the disagreement: Israel thinks it can take over any land it can get its hands on by military might. Their neighbours disagree. So does the UN. Military might? You make it sound like the Israelis just went in with tanks and planes and took it from innocent Arabs herding goats by a stream. Here...read...Wikipedia does a half-decent job with the basics. The Arab Israeli Conflict Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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