Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I don't see how the Socialists can argue this. Human Life begins at conception and all abortion is murder of that life. Very simple. If it doesn't then what is it at conception? When does it become human life and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I don't see how the Socialists can argue this. Human Life begins at conception and all abortion is murder of that life. Very simple.If it doesn't then what is it at conception? When does it become human life and why? So as a member of Harper's Conservative base, you are calling on his government to outlaw abortion? You think that the government should pass legistlation removing a woman's right to choose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 (edited) So as a member of Harper's Conservative base, you are calling on his government to outlaw abortion? You think that the government should pass legistlation removing a woman's right to choose? The title is 'Life begins at conception'. Please do try to stay on topic. If you cannot answer the questions I posed on post #1 then just don't reply. I'm looking to have a a spirited discussion on this most serious of topics. Edited December 28, 2008 by Mr.Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I don't see how the Socialists can argue this. Human Life begins at conception and all abortion is murder of that life. Very simple. True enough, but that's not what the argument is about, its whether a woman has the right to murder her embryo, and you lost that argument years ago. Get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 True enough, but that's not what the argument is about, its whether a woman has the right to murder her embryo, and you lost that argument years ago. Get over it. That was easy eyeball, I was expecting more of a fight on that one. Moving along, Murder is an offense under the criminal code. So if a woman chose to terminate her pregnancy with drugs and alcohol that's ok too right? Or if a mother chooses to drown her baby in a bathtub that's her choice to do what she will with her baby right? Side Note I would like to see it put to a vote, added to the ballot, like in the US. People want more voters to come out. Add questions like this that voters can directly decide upon and we'll see a huge upswing in voter turnout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 That was easy eyeball, I was expecting more of a fight on that one. Why? I thought you said it was very simple. Moving along, Murder is an offense under the criminal code. Except when its called abortion. See how simple it is? So if a woman chose to terminate her pregnancy with drugs and alcohol that's ok too right? If the woman buys her alcohol at a government run or licenced store what can anyone do about it? Or if a mother chooses to drown her baby in a bathtub that's her choice to do what she will with her baby right? No. That's not right. Side Note I would like to see it put to a vote, added to the ballot, like in the US. People want more voters to come out. Add questions like this that voters can directly decide upon and we'll see a huge upswing in voter turnout. There's lots of things I'd like to vote on too but apparently we can't be trusted to use democracy anymore. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 The title is 'Life begins at conception'. Please do try to stay on topic. If you cannot answer the questions I posed on post #1 then just don't reply. I'm looking to have a a spirited discussion on this most serious of topics. Aren't sperm alive? They even swim around and look like cute little tadpoles? Aren't we murdering them when we wear a rubber? I guess birth control is also a sin/crime to most conservatives too tho right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Why? I thought you said it was very simple. Except when its called abortion. See how simple it is? If the woman buys her alcohol at a government run or licenced store what can anyone do about it? No. That's not right. There's lots of things I'd like to vote on too but apparently we can't be trusted to use democracy anymore. Sorry. I'm raising more of a moral question than a legal one. Abortion may be legal but that doesn't make it a great thing for people to do. It doesn't automatically make it a great society value. Instead of abortions on demand I'd like to see more counseling directed towards the mother to be before hand. I've seen many many mothers to be leaving the abortion clinic on Gerrard in tears. I doubt they were tears of joy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 I'm raising more of a moral question than a legal one. Abortion may be legal but that doesn't make it a great thing for people to do. It doesn't automatically make it a great society value. Instead of abortions on demand I'd like to see more counseling directed towards the mother to be before hand. I've seen many many mothers to be leaving the abortion clinic on Gerrard in tears. I doubt they were tears of joy. Its not a decision anyone takes lightly. It is not something that a government has any business interfereing in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Its not a decision anyone takes lightly. It is not something that a government has any business interfereing in. The government has an obligation to protect its citizens from themselves as they do with alcohol and tobacco and elicit drugs or seatbelt laws However women can order a murder on demand? Hardly seems to be protective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 The government has an obligation to protect its citizens from themselves as they do with alcohol and tobacco and elicit drugs or seatbelt laws However women can order a murder on demand? Hardly seems to be protective. No the government has no obligation to protect citizens from themselves, only from each other. Seat belt laws, and alcohol and drug laws are forced on people by social conservatives like yourself. In a free society we should all be able to tell you to take your "protections" and fire them up your arse. Sure as a society we should reward behaviors that we want but we have no right to legally require people to act in a healthy manner. If I want to smoke, eat or, screw myself into an early grave, you holier than thou types should have no say in the matter. Just like if you want to go to church every sunday for your weekly brainwashing session i should not be able to use the law to stop you from doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 No the government has no obligation to protect citizens from themselves, only from each other. Seat belt laws, and alcohol and drug laws are forced on people by social conservatives like yourself. In a free society we should all be able to tell you to take your "protections" and fire them up your arse. Sure as a society we should reward behaviors that we want but we have no right to legally require people to act in a healthy manner. If I want to smoke, eat or, screw myself into an early grave, you holier than thou types should have no say in the matter.Just like if you want to go to church every sunday for your weekly brainwashing session i should not be able to use the law to stop you from doing so. So living a clean Christian life is worse than clubbing, doing drugs, getting drunk and sleeping with hookers? Sorry I must disagree but you're entitled to your opinion. Having common sense is holier than thou? Yeah, ok. You should really try speaking with people from outside the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 So living a clean Christian life is worse than clubbing, doing drugs, getting drunk and sleeping with hookers? Yes yes yes and too expensive. Having common sense is holier than thou? Yeah, ok. You should really try speaking with people from outside the city. Too.....ahem.....narrow minded. Besides, apparently you hang out and watch women come and go from the clinic on Gerrard.Guess you figure they are easy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 The main thing here is that so far everyone has agreed that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder on demand . For the time being legal murder but murder none the less. Probably why this thread hasn't been replied to much. I need to continue this to the next level in my next post on this issue coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moderateamericain Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 The main thing here is that so far everyone has agreed that life begins at conception and that abortion is murder on demand . For the time being legal murder but murder none the less. Probably why this thread hasn't been replied to much. I need to continue this to the next level in my next post on this issue coming soon. I have mixed opinions on this. The First four days of Conception the cell is Biologically a blank cell. Its not till it divides and DNA is formed that it becomes "Life". That being said. I refuse to call women who have abortions as Murderers. But I will say Abortion for the sake of Abortion I frown apon. Women who are raped for instance I believe should be intitled to abortion. Or In cases of Medical need. Mr. Canada your argument is an emotional one and one many people share. I believe that what we need is better Birth Control and better parenting to avoid situations that abortion is commonly required. Obviously Abstinence is best. But in lue of that I would say better Birth Control is the ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdobbin Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 When does it become human life and why? If death is measured by activity of the brain then perhaps life of a fetus begins at 25 weeks. Coincidentally, termination of a pregnancy is usually resisted by medical professionals in the third trimester unless the life of the mother is in danger. Are you one of those religious right people who believe that life begins and ends with the heart? If so, you must be against the majority of organ transplants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 I don't see how the Socialists can argue this. Human Life begins at conception and all abortion is murder of that life. Very simple.If it doesn't then what is it at conception? When does it become human life and why? Well, first of all, there is no such an event as "conception" where a sperm and egg cell instantly become human. In reality, the fertilization period takes about two weeks to complete before new cells with a new, hybrid strand of DNA start growing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization During the fertilization stage, the egg can split and create two identical copies, and in the rare cases of chimeras, two fertilized eggs can re-combine their genetic information as a single zygote, and grow up as one person who usually are totally unaware they are carrying two sets of DNA, unless they have combined male and female copies and show signs of being hermaphrodite -- both cases complicate that notion of a unique human life beginning at conception, since that human can split to create two people, and two can merge together to create a single person! Now, once we are at this stage where a unique DNA blueprint is established that will guide the coding of proteins and cell formation later in life, is that enough to award full human rights on a collection of undifferentiated cells? If you're going to start awarding fetuses human rights, you need to draw the line at a later stage in development like the third trimester, when you at least have development of the cerebral cortex -- the areas of the brain where conscious activity occurs. We do not have conscious awareness of activity going on in the mid-brain and brain-stem areas until they send their information, such as longterm memories and emotional responses to the cortex. So, we're talking somewhere between 24 and 28 weeks to begin regarding the fetus as a person with rights of protection....and as previously noted, there are very few women who seek abortions at this late stage of pregnancy. If a third trimester abortion is being considered, there are almost always concerns about health of the mother or severe birth defects in the fetus. You can craft an abortion law to bar frivolous reasons, such as minor birth defects or the baby being the wrong sex (usually female), but if you're going to make a claim for human rights at "conception" that means you are trying to interfere with a woman's choices of contraception, and put a burden against her freedom to determine how she will spend the next nine months of her life all because you want every fertilized egg to be brought to term! This is a totally ludicrous position, and if you Catholics were really serious about it, you would be focusing more intensely on the 50 to 80% of all pregnancies that are aborted naturally (or by God) through miscarriage. There are many times more "babies killed" through miscarriage than there are by women seeking abortions after discovering they are pregnant, where's the Marshall Plan to end this carnage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 Hey this one sounds like a winner for the CPC, lets reopen the debate and go to the polls!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 So living a clean Christian life is worse than clubbing, doing drugs, getting drunk and sleeping with hookers? Sorry I must disagree but you're entitled to your opinion.Having common sense is holier than thou? Yeah, ok. You should really try speaking with people from outside the city. No I didn't say living a Clean Christian life is worse than clubbing etc. I just said that it is a personal choice, and one is not inherently better than the other. For some clubbing etc, is what they prefer, for you maybe some communion wine and singing hymns. To each his own. Holier than thou is assuming that your way is best for everyone and presuming you have the right to pass laws governing other people's lifestyles that have no impact on your own. Mind your own damn business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted December 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 No I didn't say living a Clean Christian life is worse than clubbing etc. I just said that it is a personal choice, and one is not inherently better than the other. For some clubbing etc, is what they prefer, for you maybe some communion wine and singing hymns. To each his own. Holier than thou is assuming that your way is best for everyone and presuming you have the right to pass laws governing other people's lifestyles that have no impact on your own. Mind your own damn business. Ahh, but it does impact my life a great deal. Abortions are payed for by my tax dollars as is the Healthcare system that treats drunk drivers and drug overdose so called 'victims' not to mention people who are stabbed and shot over drugs and/or alcohol. For those that pay taxes it affects them very much. Effect isn't limited to religious concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted December 29, 2008 Report Share Posted December 29, 2008 Ahh, but it does impact my life a great deal. Abortions are payed for by my tax dollars as is the Healthcare system that treats drunk drivers and drug overdose so called 'victims' not to mention people who are stabbed and shot over drugs and/or alcohol. For those that pay taxes it affects them very much. Effect isn't limited to religious concerns. And I'm paying for your church, through the property tax exemptions and generous tax shelter status that makes virtually all uses of church donations tax-deductible. Secular, non-church based charities have to itemize every expenditure and have to prove their expenses are needed to do their charity work. Churches don't face this hurdle, and can hand out tax refunds for all contributions that are used for charitable work, church operating expenses, missionary work and paying priests, ministers and other church staff. They don't get the attention of Revenue Canada or the I.R.S. until they have multi-millionaire evangelists start building their own theme parks and flying around in private jets. So we all have to pay our taxes to support things that we are opposed to! As for your grievances: would you prefer to pay the costs incurred as a result of forcing all women to bring every pregnancy to term and raise them to adulthood? And what about the health care costs of having women coming into hospitals after botched blackmarket abortions once you've achieved your goal of recriminalizing abortion. The costs of drug use is not coming in just from drug addicts: I think we are paying far more costs because of the people with your mindset of fighting sin at all costs, since we wouldn't have the costs associated with fighting a drug war and drug-related crimes if drug addiction was treated as a health issue rather than a crime issue. We are re-enacting history since the costs, the addiction problems, the organized crime problems, all motivated the repeal of alcohol prohibition laws back in the 1930's. Fighting the sin of drunkenness grew too costly for society at that time, and a pragmatic solution of allowing, but restricting the sale and use of alcohol was deemed better than an idealistic and unattainable desire to stop everyone from drinking alcohol......so how long will it take drug prohibitionists to realize that their solutions are only making the problems worse now, since they enrich organized crime and cost society billions of dollars fighting drug wars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted January 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Once again folks my brilliance and quick wit has silenced my detractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 No, you have refused to prove the claims you announce so boldly and respond to contradictory information, so you achieve nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC_chick Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 I don't see how the Socialists can argue this. Human Life begins at conception and all abortion is murder of that life. Very simple.If it doesn't then what is it at conception? When does it become human life and why? If a 7 month pregnant woman dies, her fetus may be kept alive. An embryo, OTOH, cannot survive without its mother. I'm not sure what socialism has to do with the discussion, but in my humble opinion, I believe life begins when the living being can survive on its own. However, other 'socialists' may argue that life begins at birth. They're usually CUPE members though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LesterDC Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 (edited) I'd say that life begins whenever conscientiousness begins.. But I also fail to see how abortion = socialism.. Edited January 2, 2009 by LesterDC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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