Islam, the sneaky buggers

[ScottSA]

you like to throw in little one-liners in your posts that you think are cute and funny, but they have no meaning behind them besides childish pranks. otherwise, its thinly veiled hate.

Would it be impolite to ask you to learn to write properly before clogging up threads with stoned irrelevant rants?

[jbg]

But then you have to also ask how to effectively deal with declining birth rates and the aging of the population. Sure lets have a debate on immigration, however too often these debates will have subtle racist overtones attached to them due to the knee jerk reaction of certain members.

Declining birth rates are a problem to the extent that there is less productivity to support the increasing number of people of post-retirement age. One cannot solve that problem by importing people unfamiliar with the language and culture of Canada (or the US) who are not going to provide the productive inputs necessary to support retirees.

Simply throwing people who come from teeming, deeply impoverished and uneducated countries does not solve the problem. The problem is not lack of bodies; it's lack of productive bodies. The solution, frankly, is to raise retirement ages to 70 or even 75. Programs for the elderly that worked well with a retirement age of 65 and life expectancy of 72 don't work that well when most surviving 65 year olds can expect to live another 20-30 years.

[trex]

Would it be impolite to ask you to learn to write properly before clogging up threads with stoned irrelevant rants?

again with the insults.

yes it would be impolite, just like it would be to tell you to shut the hell up.

[ScottSA]

again with the insults.

yes it would be impolite, just like it would be to tell you to shut the hell up.

Apparently it would be a waste of time too, although your post before this one showed an element of sentience I must admit. But you misunderstand the intentions of the multiculturalists. They don't want people here to boast production; that's just a meme they throw out as a half-hearted defence. They want immigration because it has become an object in and of itself.

[guyser]

But you misunderstand the intentions of the multiculturalists. They don't want people here to boast production; that's just a meme they throw out as a half-hearted defence. They want immigration because it has become an object in and of itself.

Oh you missed on this one. Go tell that to all the employers in the next province to yours. They are begging for people.

But of course they are begging anybody because they have taken the cause as an "object in and of itself"

[GostHacked]

Apparently it would be a waste of time too, although your post before this one showed an element of sentience I must admit. But you misunderstand the intentions of the multiculturalists. They don't want people here to boast production; that's just a meme they throw out as a half-hearted defence. They want immigration because it has become an object in and of itself.

A trollin we will go.....

[ScottSA]

Oh you missed on this one. Go tell that to all the employers in the next province to yours. They are begging for people.

But of course they are begging anybody because they have taken the cause as an "object in and of itself"

Yes, but you see, they have the entire east coast to pick from. Further, do you know what happened in Britain? They imported hordes of Pakistanis to work in the mines in the 70s. Then they closed the mines. Two decades later the towns have become seething polarized ghettos full of unemployed Pakistanis and their extended families, including now a second generation. I'm sure the arguments were exactly the same in the 70s. What to you think will happen after these direly required immigrants suddenly aren't required anymore in Alberta? And in case you haven't noticed, the immigrants all head for TO, not the oil rigs, except for Chinese immigrants, who have pretty much caused a tinderkeg of racial animosity in Vancouver. I can't wait to see what happens when tensions rise with China. It'll be quite tohe jolly "diverse and vibrant" time, eh wot?

[trex]

A trollin we will go.....

i am a fisher of men, but he's just trollin

;^)

[Canadian Blue]

Declining birth rates are a problem to the extent that there is less productivity to support the increasing number of people of post-retirement age. One cannot solve that problem by importing people unfamiliar with the language and culture of Canada (or the US) who are not going to provide the productive inputs necessary to support retirees.

Well I do agree that all immigrants should be able to speak English or French, it's really just simply common sense. However in my experience most immigrants are hard working and tend to follow the law.

Simply throwing people who come from teeming, deeply impoverished and uneducated countries does not solve the problem.

It all depends, some immigrants that come here are educated but are driving a country. I don't mind bringing in people who come from impoverished areas as our country has often been built by those people who overcame adversity to help build this country.

The solution, frankly, is to raise retirement ages to 70 or even 75. Programs for the elderly that worked well with a retirement age of 65 and life expectancy of 72 don't work that well when most surviving 65 year olds can expect to live another 20-30 years.

I think that the government should instead put more of an emphasis on families, make it easier for couples to have children. I would prefer to keep the retirement age close to 60. I'm sure you yourself wouldn't want to work til 75, and I know I sure as hell don't want to. From what I understand Norway apparently has a higher birthrate than most of Europe, perhaps we should see what they have done.

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

Yes, but you see, they have the entire east coast to pick from. Further, do you know what happened in Britain? They imported hordes of Pakistanis to work in the mines in the 70s. Then they closed the mines. Two decades later the towns have become seething polarized ghettos full of unemployed Pakistanis and their extended families, including now a second generation. I'm sure the arguments were exactly the same in the 70s. What to you think will happen after these direly required immigrants suddenly aren't required anymore in Alberta? And in case you haven't noticed, the immigrants all head for TO, not the oil rigs, except for Chinese immigrants, who have pretty much caused a tinderkeg of racial animosity in Vancouver. I can't wait to see what happens when tensions rise with China. It'll be quite tohe jolly "diverse and vibrant" time, eh wot?

You're correct when you point out that racial harmony will break down when society is faced with serious economic threats.

I don't buy your 'tinderkeg of racial animosity in Vancouver', but I do think that we need to openly discuss, measure, and publicize attitudes towards race. If in fact there's a backlash happening, we need to moderate immigration levels.

The conventional wisdom, however, is that immigration is good for the economy. The fact that our current and previous federal governments have had pretty much the same policies bears that out. From what I've read, Canada has the fastest population growth of the G8, and a healthy pro-business economy so we're currently as far from 1970s Britain as you can get.

[ScottSA]

Scott,

You're correct when you point out that racial harmony will break down when society is faced with serious economic threats.

Oh yay.

I don't buy your 'tinderkeg of racial animosity in Vancouver', but I do think that we need to openly discuss, measure, and publicize attitudes towards race. If in fact there's a backlash happening, we need to moderate immigration levels. .

It's hardly relevant whether you "buy it" or not.

The conventional wisdom, however, is that immigration is good for the economy. The fact that our current and previous federal governments have had pretty much the same policies bears that out. From what I've read, Canada has the fastest population growth of the G8, and a healthy pro-business economy so we're currently as far from 1970s Britain as you can get.

Usual sophist nonsense. Yeah, we don't speak with English accents so we're not like Britain at all. Did you even read what I said in context?

[Moxie]

Declining birth rates are a problem to the extent that there is less productivity to support the increasing number of people of post-retirement age. One cannot solve that problem by importing people unfamiliar with the language and culture of Canada (or the US) who are not going to provide the productive inputs necessary to support retirees.

Simply throwing people who come from teeming, deeply impoverished and uneducated countries does not solve the problem. The problem is not lack of bodies; it's lack of productive bodies. The solution, frankly, is to raise retirement ages to 70 or even 75. Programs for the elderly that worked well with a retirement age of 65 and life expectancy of 72 don't work that well when most surviving 65 year olds can expect to live another 20-30 years.

I concur it is a "Lack of productive bodies" currently most immigrants end up in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. We need immigrants that are willing to move into rural areas of Canada. Sask. is going through a major economic boom and it appears that the Phillippino community is emigrating into the Prairies and thriving. From what I've read they are integrating into their communties very well and they come highly educated and ready to work hard and lay down roots. Most have jobs before they arrive into Canada, good positive stuff.

Canadian politicians seem to be happy with the status quo, eventually Toronto is going to simmer and boil over with racial issues if the Jamacian Gang issue isn't dealt with. It shouldn't be a racial issue it should be a criminal issue. I can only imagine how law biding Jamacians feel living in getthos controled by violent thugs. Who are we afraid of offending, Jamacian thugs?

This is an important issue that Canadians want to discuss but the racist/screamers and snot and bawlers screaming Racist everytime this issue comes up silences debate. We must ignore the cry babies and the tender sensibilities of the left if we are to find a happy balance.

I do not want to retire when I'm 70, and it would be grossly unfair to those that have worked for fifthy years to up the bar on retirement. I do not believe we will ever have a severe shortage of skilled workers in Canada. It's leftest propaganda, the work force shrinks as industries die or close shop putting skilled labour out of work. This labour force moves into the areas where there is a labour shortage and the cycle continues. Using the shortage of skilled labour as a red herring to flood this country with third world immigrants is cultural and economic suicide. Canada does not need more taxi drivers, it needs more electricians, plumbers, maisons etc.

[bush_cheney2004]

I concur it is a "Lack of productive bodies" currently most immigrants end up in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. We need immigrants that are willing to move into rural areas of Canada. Sask. is going through a major economic boom and it appears that the Phillippino community is emigrating into the Prairies and thriving. From what I've read they are integrating into their communties very well and they come highly educated and ready to work hard and lay down roots. Most have jobs before they arrive into Canada, good positive stuff.

They also "end up" in the USA. I work with many immigrants who merely used Canada as a stepping stone to America, mostly in the IT field. They come from Russia, Ukraine, Bangladesh, India, etc. Others are Canadian nationals who jumped on the brain drain job train.

[Argus]

No offence, but you don't seem like the neighbourly type ... are you happier with your neighbours now?

Yes, quite a bit so.

[Argus]

Here's the definition of a bigot ScottSA, it sums you up nicely.

1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

Actually, that describes you pretty well.

[Argus]

But then you have to also ask how to effectively deal with declining birth rates and the aging of the population.

Immigration does not address either of those situations. The average age of immigrants is basically the same as the average age of Canadians, and we aren't bringing over people in their early twenties so much as people in their late thirties and early forties anyway. No one who has actually examined the demographic data feels that anything like the numbers of immigrants we are getting is needed or even helpful.

Sure lets have a debate on immigration, however too often these debates will have subtle racist overtones attached to them due to the knee jerk reaction of certain members.

Nonsense. What happens is someone mentions the cons of immigration and people like you get red in the face, start shrieking and pulling their hair out and calling people names.

[Argus]

Well I do agree that all immigrants should be able to speak English or French, it's really just simply common sense. However in my experience most immigrants are hard working and tend to follow the law.

It all depends, some immigrants that come here are educated but are driving a country. I don't mind bringing in people who come from impoverished areas as our country has often been built by those people who overcame adversity to help build this countr

Yes, there was a time when we had a use for illiterate, uneducated people with strong backs and weak minds. That time is long since passed. Even mining and forestry are skilled professions now, with little use for the illiterate and uneducated who don't speak English. That is why the unemployment and poverty rate of immigrants is so much larger than that of native born Canadians - and getting worse.

And these are the people you think are going to be paying for the boomers retirement? They aren't even paying for their own social services.

[Moxie]

You have brought up valid points Argus, regarding the age of immigrants it would be interesting to know what the age demographics are. My town has nine new comers, all over forty with teenage children. I doubt they will have more.

Also a valid point, lack of education of immigrants. While at one time all it took to strive and thrive in Canada was hard manual labour that era is gone, we need skilled labour.

Another valid point, immigrants straining our social saftey net. I've seen case where a male is a refugee, he recieves in excess of three thousand a month. He brings over his wives and they each get welfare independantly for themselves and children. He can easily rake in 8000 a month in benifits. Before anyone screams at me, I've seen it happening when I did some consulting work for a global property management company. Cross referencing and keeping tabs on those using our social programs is nonexistant. Those who work within the social programs are an entity onto themselves. Job preservation and growth supercede properly managing our tax dollars. Opps sorry of topic.

So what should the future hold, I know that many Europeans are fleeing Europe at record rates should we be wooing them into Canada with tax incentives and waiving the wait time. Currently it takes five years for qualified immigrants who speak english and are educated to get admited to Canada. I'd like to see this system streamlined.

[ScottSA]

That is exactly right...Europeans are fleeing Europe in record numbers, and we ought to be doing everything we can to bring them here. Not just because they are skilled and enculturated, but because they are part of the Judeo-Christian heritage, and not "visible," so they won't add to the ghettoization of society.

[jbg]

I would prefer to keep the retirement age close to 60. I'm sure you yourself wouldn't want to work til 75, and I know I sure as hell don't want to. From what I understand Norway apparently has a higher birthrate than most of Europe, perhaps we should see what they have done.

I've done the math. I earn relatively well, and I see no way I can retire much before 75 and have enough to lie on fo rthe balance of my then-expected life.

By the way, I'm 50 now.

Edited October 8, 2007 by jbg

[Peter F]

I do not want to retire when I'm 70, and it would be grossly unfair to those that have worked for fifthy years to up the bar on retirement.

Actually you can retire whenever you like. No matter what the immigration levels are and no matter what labour shortages do or do not exist.

[jbg]

I concur it is a "Lack of productive bodies" currently most immigrants end up in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. We need immigrants that are willing to move into rural areas of Canada. Sask. is going through a major economic boom and it appears that the Phillippino community is emigrating into the Prairies and thriving.

If they're productive they're good anywhere, and will find their own way to tight markets.

From what I've read they are integrating into their communties very well and they come highly educated and ready to work hard and lay down roots. Most have jobs before they arrive into Canada, good positive stuff.

That's certainly true of most immigrants to US.

I do not want to retire when I'm 70, and it would be grossly unfair to those that have worked for fifthy years to up the bar on retirement.

You didn't read the rest of my point. The more salient part is that keeping retirees going for almost 40% of their natural lives (add the part for when they're infants through adolescents) and only about 40% of the population is productive. Those workers would have to do handsprings to keep the country going, however good, unless the working ages are expanded. I would not raise the bar for people on verge of retirement; I'd make the change for people under 55 only (and for the record I'm 50 so I'm including myself).

I do not believe we will ever have a severe shortage of skilled workers in Canada. It's leftest propaganda, the work force shrinks as industries die or close shop putting skilled labour out of work. This labour force moves into the areas where there is a labour shortage and the cycle continues. Using the shortage of skilled labour as a red herring to flood this country with third world immigrants is cultural and economic suicide. Canada does not need more taxi drivers, it needs more electricians, plumbers, maisons etc.

Whether we will won't, see my point above. We certainly don't "need more taxi drivers" (unless they can find ones that are courteous, drive well, and can get me from Pearson to Bloor and Yonge without white knuckes).

[GostHacked]

That is exactly right...Europeans are fleeing Europe in record numbers, and we ought to be doing everything we can to bring them here. Not just because they are skilled and enculturated, but because they are part of the Judeo-Christian heritage, and not "visible," so they won't add to the ghettoization of society.

As long as they don't bring their slaves with them. They might want equality some day.

[trex]

I concur it is a "Lack of productive bodies" currently most immigrants end up in Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver. We need immigrants that are willing to move into rural areas of Canada. Sask. is going through a major economic boom and it appears that the Phillippino community is emigrating into the Prairies and thriving. From what I've read they are integrating into their communties very well and they come highly educated and ready to work hard and lay down roots. Most have jobs before they arrive into Canada, good positive stuff.

i think this is an important point that shows the benefits of immigration. many immigrants take jobs which are hard manual labour, for some who want the chance to a better life and making money, to establish themselves in a new country they're willing to work hard for it. we need more of these ambitious types here. we certainly dont need people who will immediately go on welfare, but there is still the question of allowing in refugees. we are a wealthy society and we can do better in terms of fairness, so that the opportunity for wealth is fairly distributed, not in the hands of a select few.

This is an important issue that Canadians want to discuss but the racist/screamers and snot and bawlers screaming Racist everytime this issue comes up silences debate. We must ignore the cry babies and the tender sensibilities of the left if we are to find a happy balance.

i think you are mistaken to use these kind of inflammatory comments in your posts... avoid polarizing the debate between "left" and "right". these are issues which need to be carefully thought out. social issues are complex and we need to balance both of these views, so that the needs of people are not trampled on for the sake of fixed ideology.

[ScottSA]

As long as they don't bring their slaves with them. They might want equality some day.

That's the best you can do? Entirely fabricate something? See, here's the double standard I'm talking about...I say something about Islam and you folks all fall over each other to throw rotten eggs, but you think nothing of trashing European society or Christianity even if it means just conjuring up ridiculous fiction. Slaves? Oh, you must mean the institution that the British government stamped out 150 years ago, that unfortunately lingers on in some Islamic nations, but hasn't been seen in western Europe since...oh, I dunno...for about 1000 years or so?