Islam, the sneaky buggers

[Michael Hardner]

Kuz,

racist theories are incorrect, first off, since there is no such thing as "race" but one, the human race, we have had that discussion here, it is solidly backed up.

Therefore, it is simply ignorant and irrational to persecute/criticize based on race.

And as some have pointed out, Islam spans many cultures. I hate using the term xenophobia because a lot of people don't know what that means, and it's too long to type. (Emoticon.) Perhaps I'll just use the term 'bigotry'.

Secondly, as I believe you said, to judge an entire distinctive group of people, in this case, followers of Islam, as "terrorist" and 'thugs' is fomenting hatred and nothing more, it is promoting discrimination, against people for their faith.

Or as you noted people who share similar skin tones, being attacked for their skin colour, this demonstrates irrationality, on the part of people who do this type of stuff and

also irrationality on the part of people who think this type of stuff is ok.

As I have said, before there are approx. 1 billion, followers of the Islamic faith in this world and by far the vast majority of them, are just going about there lives, living, loving, dying, marrying, raising kids, working etc., The vast populace should not be judged by the actions of the few criminals, any more then I wish to see myself judged by the words of scottsa or argus.

Condemn the actions of the criminal, not the people at large who have ZERO to do with the actions of the few.

This post has been edited by kuzadd: Today, 07:22 AM

And the ones who want to come here are fleeing the societies that are being criticized here as backwards, monotheistic, etc. They're not coming here to destroy Canada, but because they want a better life. There is always an adjustment process when society changes from immigration. These discussions are part of that process.

I researched some racial and religious struggles in Ontario during the first part of the 20th century - these ones being between Irish, Dutch, Scottish, French, German and English immigrants of Presbyterian, English, Lutheran and Catholic faiths. Those struggles happened so long ago that we have forgotten about them. As such, Muslims seem so much 'different' to, say, Scottish Presbyterians that they might seem like aliens.

[Argus]

Kuz,

And as some have pointed out

You mean you?

Islam spans many cultures.

Yawn

I hate using the term xenophobia because a lot of people don't know what that means,

Including you, apparently.

and it's too long to type. (Emoticon.) Perhaps I'll just use the term 'bigotry'.

Now if only you could figure out what that meant.

[Argus]

Argus,

Excuse me ?

Didn't I just eschew self-righteousness by imploring people to debate racists on the merits of their arguments ?

I'm not shocked by racism. I'd like to debate why racist theories are incorrect, and there's nothing self-righteous about that.

If only you had the brains to know what racism was, and didn't ascribe it to anyone who disagreed with you about immigration and culture.

[Argus]

i am not a sniveling idiot. please refrain from using those kind of remarks.

Why? In a thread where anyone who says anything critical of muslims is called "bigot" and "racist" and you bemoan "hate literature" I'd think the word would be perfectly natural - along with quite a few more of a pejorative nature.

there are many muslims who are just as appalled by the harsh fundamentalist types, such as taliban, as we are.

Would you care to quantify this term "many"? Because in a world where British Muslims are polled and where 40% want Sharia law applied in Britain, the idea that Muslims are a gentle, liberal group of people other than a very, very few radicals without support from the rest just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I'm not denying there are enlightened and sophisticated Muslims with a Western outlook - but an enormous number of Muslims, even in the West (to say nothing for places like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan) seem to be backward, primitive and filled with religious fanaticism.

And I'm still waiting for you to post the hate literature which so appaled you.

[kuzadd]

RACISM:

* or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.

* The inherent belief in the superiority of one race over all others and thereby the right to dominance.

* The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another and the practices of the dominant group to maintain the inferior position of the dominated group. Often defined as a combination of power, prejudice and discrimination.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

xenophobia:an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.An unreasonable fear, distrust, or hatred of strangers, foreigners, or anything perceived as foreign or different.

or xenphobe:A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BIGOT:a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Word History: Bigots may have more in common with God than one might think. Legend has it that Rollo, the first duke of Normandy, refused to kiss the foot of the French king Charles III, uttering the phrase bi got, his borrowing of the assumed Old English equivalent of our expression by God. Although this story is almost surely apocryphal, it is true that bigot was used by the French as a term of abuse for the Normans, but not in a religious sense. Later, however, the word, or very possibly a homonym, was used abusively in French for the Beguines, members of a Roman Catholic lay sisterhood. From the 15th century on Old French bigot meant "an excessively devoted or hypocritical person." Bigot is first recorded in English in 1598 with the sense "a superstitious hypocrite."

[Argus]

Argus,

That's delusional. If you look at a group of people on the other side of the world and associate them with people who have nothing to do with their actions, but share their skin colour - how is that better ?

Pay attention. I dislike repeating myself simply because someone is too lazy to read my answer and then posts the identical question without addressing that answer.

There is a vast difference between disliking a group of people due to their actions, behaviour and words, and simply disliking them because of skin colour - which they cannot help and which does not affect you anyway.

I earlier posted about the behaviour of Muslim men here, not in Afghanistan, but here, their general behaviour towards Canadian women, and their evident and oft-repeated beliefs regarding Canadian women. Which was that they were all whores, and should make themselves available to any Muslim man who wants them. I don't know if you can even find a young, reasonably attractive woman in any area of this country with a lot of Muslims who has not had run-ins with Muslim men in bars, clubs, restaurants and parties. I have not found one. This is similar to an earlier report which interviewed Muslim in Sweden of their opinions on Swedish girls. I believe the quote was something like "Everyone wants a Swedish whore... (laughter) I mean girl, when they are young, but when you are going to get married you want a proper woman who is a Muslim and virgin." There was another item about the rate of sexual assaults in Denmark which attributed the great majority of rape in that country to Muslim immigrants. This reflects the Muslim attitude towards women in Saudi Arabia, where schoolgirls were forced back into a burning building because they didn't have their faces covered - and died, and the Muslim attitude towards women in Afghanistan, or Iran, where women are beaten if their hair shows outside their veils, and where they are executed if found guilty of "fornication".

So what would you say to a woman who did not much like the idea of bringing over more and more Muslims to Canada, and expanding our Muslim population - doubling it every ten years. Never mind, I know "You're a filthy bigot!"

You can't accept that she has made a logical judgement based on fact because you've no idea how to do that yourself.

I am only selecting this one aspect of what one might call "Muslim culture", btw, to show that this culture exists wherever there are Muslims. There are NO Muslim nations with an enlightened or even modern attitude towards women. None. There are no Muslim nations with an enlightened or tolerant attitude towards ANYTHING. And yet all we get from fools is nonsense about how Islam spans many cultures. PHht.

[trex]

Why? In a thread where anyone who says anything critical of muslims is called "bigot" and "racist" and you bemoan "hate literature" I'd think the word would be perfectly natural - along with quite a few more of a pejorative nature.

because then the whole argument becomes a childish waste f time, thats why. so we can either talk about issues in a meaningful way, or not at all.

and its not that someone said just "anything" critical of muslims, but certain people are making blanket statements of their dislike towards all muslms, regardless of whether they're moderates or extremist. that IS extremism in itself.

as i mentioned before, it is a question of how to deal with the problem, not whether or not the problem exists.

polls are manipulative by nature, i do not put 100% trust in polls. nor do i follow the herd over a cliff. even so, that does not mean i should have fear or hatred for any muslim i meet in the streets, anytime we commin an injustice by showing hatred against people, we can expect an equal reaction from them, we are giving fuel to the extremists who can then preach to their grops, "see there, they hate us, they are evil" etc. etc. So it is again a question of approaching the problem. those who preach hatred, on either side, need to be condemned. those who want to live in peace, worship their god in peace, should be left alone.

[Argus]

Condemn the actions of the criminal, not the people at large who have ZERO to do with the actions of the few.

Zero? Really? I disagree. Suppose there were free and open elections in the Muslim world. Who, do you suspect would be elected? Would it be liberal minded democrats eager to write constitutions which guarantee equality and freedom to all?

GUFFAWWWW!!!!

You know as well as I do that harsh minded clerics would be elected in most Muslim countries and Sharia law would be immediately imposed. That is the will of the people of the Muslim world.

Polls taken in the UK show that while the majority disapproved of the actions of terrorists, most of them suported the goals. And a substantial minority had rather more sympathy than that, either supporting the terrorists, or at least willing to look the other way. And even in the UK, 40% wanted Sharia law.

And yet, we're not supposed to condemn or dissaprove of that?

[trex]

Polls taken in the UK show that while the majority disapproved of the actions of terrorists, most of them suported the goals. And a substantial minority had rather more sympathy than that, either supporting the terrorists, or at least willing to look the other way. And even in the UK, 40% wanted Sharia law.

And yet, we're not supposed to condemn or dissaprove of that?

i would say, we should disapprove of that. ignoring for a moment whether this poll of yours is valid, or whether it was used in a manipulative way, for example by polling the people coming from of a known extremist cleric. a poll is just a snapshot but in any case it means, at least 60% of the people do not favour sharia law. so more than half the muslims you meet in britain are against it, and we should not treat them with hatred or agitation, lest they be easily converted to join the groups who want to overthrow our just society. that would be a big mistake.

for example, ignorant, racist, bigoted youth may want to attack a muslim who is sitting on a bus, for no reason other than that they have heard some hate filled propaganda. they believe there is no difference in any muslims, that all are a threat by virtue of being muslim, identify them by their clothing and behaviour, and attack innocent people. then we have given up our just society, ourselves. and that kind of mentality is whats being promoted here by some with one-sided views.

Edited October 3, 2007 by tbud

[Canadian Blue]

While I certainly don't hold all the views you attribute to whoever that poster is, maybe some people want immigration to be conducted and allowed in such a way as to ensure that the immigrants become Canadians (in the case of my country, Americans), and not destroy the Western culture, itself a unique "culture" entitled to preservation.

I could agree with that, however the poster in question is attacking all Muslims, and it seems to be a fetish of his. Want a debate on what level of immigration is appropriate and how it should be conducted, sure, but when it turns into a thread about how those goddamn immigrants are destroying our country it turns into bigotry.

[guyser]

I am only selecting this one aspect of what one might call "Muslim culture", btw, to show that this culture exists wherever there are Muslims. There are NO Muslim nations with an enlightened or even modern attitude towards women. None. There are no Muslim nations with an enlightened or tolerant attitude towards ANYTHING. And yet all we get from fools is nonsense about how Islam spans many cultures. PHht.

Turkey ?

(kurdish area notwithstanding)

[M.Dancer]

Turkey ?

(kurdish area notwithstanding)

I think being a woman in Turkey is a little more constricting than say, in traditional western macho nations.....

http://www.photius.com/countries/turkey/so...s_of_women.html

[Michael Hardner]

Arg,

Pay attention. I dislike repeating myself simply because someone is too lazy to read my answer and then posts the identical question without addressing that answer.

Excuse me ? You've posted to me 3 times without a reply from me.

There is a vast difference between disliking a group of people due to their actions, behaviour and words, and simply disliking them because of skin colour - which they cannot help and which does not affect you anyway.

You're repeating yourself from a previous post.

I already addressed this.

I earlier posted about the behaviour of Muslim men here, not in Afghanistan, but here, their general behaviour towards Canadian women, and their evident and oft-repeated beliefs regarding Canadian women. Which was that they were all whores, and should make themselves available to any Muslim man who wants them. I don't know if you can even find a young, reasonably attractive woman in any area of this country with a lot of Muslims who has not had run-ins with Muslim men in bars, clubs, restaurants and parties. I have not found one. This is similar to an earlier report which interviewed Muslim in Sweden of their opinions on Swedish girls. I believe the quote was something like "Everyone wants a Swedish whore... (laughter) I mean girl, when they are young, but when you are going to get married you want a proper woman who is a Muslim and virgin." There was another item about the rate of sexual assaults in Denmark which attributed the great majority of rape in that country to Muslim immigrants. This reflects the Muslim attitude towards women in Saudi Arabia, where schoolgirls were forced back into a burning building because they didn't have their faces covered - and died, and the Muslim attitude towards women in Afghanistan, or Iran, where women are beaten if their hair shows outside their veils, and where they are executed if found guilty of "fornication".

And ?

There's no source for what you have written, first of all. Secondly, people coming from other cultures are going to have some unpalatable ideas about gender, race, what have you.

Are you saying that should be a basis for keeping people out of Canada ? Do you think Russian men have a progressive view towards women ? What about other cultures ?

So what would you say to a woman who did not much like the idea of bringing over more and more Muslims to Canada, and expanding our Muslim population - doubling it every ten years. Never mind, I know "You're a filthy bigot!"

I don't like people who don't read my posts either. I have already said that racists don't stir me to emotional response, so no I wouldn't call the person filthy.

Secondly, double our Muslim population every ten years might well be unreasonable. We're absorbing a lot of immigrants now, but I don't know what the numbers are. I would have to see them before commenting on your example.

You can't accept that she has made a logical judgement based on fact because you've no idea how to do that yourself.

She hasn't made a logical judgement. From your example, she doesn't "like" the idea... based on who knows what.

I live in the fastest growing G8 country population-wise, in the city that receives the most immigrants. We can sustain current levels, from what I have experienced.

My experience tells me that most people who are anti-immigration have developed their stance out of fear, and don't actually live in areas where there is a lot of immigration.

I am only selecting this one aspect of what one might call "Muslim culture", btw, to show that this culture exists wherever there are Muslims. There are NO Muslim nations with an enlightened or even modern attitude towards women. None. There are no Muslim nations with an enlightened or tolerant attitude towards ANYTHING. And yet all we get from fools is nonsense about how Islam spans many cultures. PHht.

What we "fools" are trying to do is figure out why you folks are anti-Muslim, not anti-Afghani Musim or anti-Pakistani Muslim. Whenever we ask specific questions as to whether a certain Muslim might be an exception to your rule, we get the usual logical dance wherein you switch from the holy-books, to the culture as being the root cause.

I agree that the attitudes that you despise come from the culture. That's all the more reason to westernize as much of the world as possible by allowing people who want to live in freedom, in Canada, to do so.

[trex]

Argus-> There are NO Muslim nations with an enlightened or even modern attitude towards women. None.

the answer to that is, former iraq under saddam hussein-

"Saddam saw himself as a social revolutionary and a modernizer, following the Nasser model. To the consternation of Islamic conservatives, his government gave women added freedoms and offered them high-level government and industry jobs. Saddam also created a Western-style legal system, making Iraq the only country in the Persian Gulf region not ruled according to traditional Islamic law (Sharia). Saddam abolished the Sharia law courts, except for personal injury claims."

"Within just a few years, Iraq was providing social services that were unprecedented among Middle Eastern countries. Saddam established and controlled the "National Campaign for the Eradication of Illiteracy" and the campaign for "Compulsory Free Education in Iraq," and largely under his auspices, the government established universal free schooling up to the highest education levels; hundreds of thousands learned to read in the years following the initiation of the program."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam#Modernisation

[guyser]

I think being a woman in Turkey is a little more constricting than say, in traditional western macho nations.....

http://www.photius.com/countries/turkey/so...s_of_women.html

Yes it is more restricting to women than the west is. But they are progressive in ways many other Muslims countries dare not be.

It was an effective counter to the hysteric ?nowhere nohow, no country is enlightened on anything" line.

I read your cite,had to check the title a couple of times. Sounds like most of my Italian friends families growing up.

[moderateamericain]

After reading this entire thread twice. I have some points to make. First of all, aside from the personal attacks, this has been one of the most intresting threads I've read in a while. Feel free to correct any wrong assumptions.

Point 1- While we do owe a fair amount of are culture to Middle Eastern thinkers. The arabic alphabet and numbering system are not a product of Islam but a product of the societies pre-dating Islam. Islam did not even exsist until 6th century if I am not mistaken.

Point 2- How can you be a racist agaist a religion. Islam the religion is found in many different racial and cultural and even subcultural groups. Therefore to say in no certain terms "I dont like Islam" is not the same as saying "I don't like blacks".

Point 3- The core issue here as I see it. Is about cultural assimilation or cultural adaption. If I moved to Saudi Arabia would my wife and children be able to dress the same way there as in the USA? No they would not. (I dont have a wife or child, im making a point) I would be forced to adapt to the culture that I lived in. So why should an Islamic family not make the same concessions when they move to a different country? They expect to have there laws obeyed, why should we expect any differnt. In western society today, stoning women for adultry and/or showing there hair is not excepted. We call that murder. This is OUR society, if they want to live under Islamic law then they should do so in an Islamic country. We should not have to break our cultural values to bend for another culture. It is there job to adapt to our set of laws and principles as best they can within the confines of Islam. It is not are job to set are laws and value based on the small minority of immigrants.

Point 4-Is Islam more violent then any other religion in the world? I don't really know. If we are looking at the span of thousands of years of human history, probably no more so that christianity or any other relgion. If we are looking at the last 30 years, hell yes. In the last 30 years Islam has been the cause of more butchery around the world than any other religion (1977-2007). It is really not surprising to me that people like ScottSA have strong anti-Islamic feelings. In the 1940's there was strong anti-german and anti-Japanese feelings. Must have had something to do with World War one and World War two, by golly haven't we been fighting in muslim nations for the better part of the last 25 years? (Bosnia, Iraq 1, Iraq 2, Kosovo, Mogadishu, etc)

[Higgly]

I have more experience by an order of magnitude than you with the third world, with Muslims...

Me too, and I think you are deranged

[Canadian Blue]

ScottSA, I have spoken to a numerous amount of soldiers who have done tours in Afghanistan and very few have a bigotry towards all Muslims in general. It's interesting that they can differentiate between the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden and you can't.

It is really not surprising to me that people like ScottSA have strong anti-Islamic feelings. In the 1940's there was strong anti-german and anti-Japanese feelings. Must have had something to do with World War one and World War two, by golly haven't we been fighting in muslim nations for the better part of the last 25 years?

May I remind you that many people of German origin fought in World War 2, as did Japanese Canadian's. However ScottSA has decided to paint all Muslims with the same brush.

[ScottSA]

ScottSA, I have spoken to a numerous amount of soldiers who have done tours in Afghanistan and very few have a bigotry towards all Muslims in general. It's interesting that they can differentiate between the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden and you can't.

May I remind you that many people of German origin fought in World War 2, as did Japanese Canadian's. However ScottSA has decided to paint all Muslims with the same brush.

I see. And you feel that there's a significant philosophical difference between the Taliban and Osama bin Laden?

[Canadian Blue]

Correction on my last, they can differentiate between regular Muslims and the Taliban. Most CF members aren't bigots despite having alot of experience from tours in the third world. I believe we even have some Muslims serving in the CF.

[ScottSA]

Correction on my last, they can differentiate between regular Muslims and the Taliban. Most CF members aren't bigots despite having alot of experience from tours in the third world. I believe we even have some Muslims serving in the CF.

Do tell. What is your definition of a bigot?

[ScottSA]

I wonder where this mosque is?

TORONTO - A Toronto mosque is telling Muslims not to say "Happy Thanksgiving" or invite friends into their homes for turkey dinner on the holiday weekend.

The Khalid Bin Al-Walid Mosque says to "avoid participating" in dinners, parties or greetings on Thanksgiving because it is a kuffaar, or non-Muslim, celebration.

A two-part article on the mosque Web site says Muslims should also "stay completely away" from "Halloween trick-and treat nonsense," Christmas, New Year's, anniversaries, birthdays and Earth Day.

"How can we bring ourselves to congratulate or wish people well for their disobedience to Allah? Thus expressions such as:Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Birthday, Happy New Year, etc, are completely out," it says.

Oh, look. More from the religion of peace!

In 2003, the Khalid mosque, which mainly serves the Toronto Somali-Canadian community, apologized for a newsletter that compared wishing someone a Merry Christmas to congratulating a murderer.

At the time, a junior employee was blamed for the slight, but the mosque's Web site has since posted similar edicts covering not only Christmas but also virtually every other Western celebration.

Yep, they'll make great Canadians. We just have to "accept!"

Muslims can join political parties only if they are "able to exert some influence on the direction of the party so that it will take an Islamic direction."

"with strong determination and patience, the world will God-willing be under the Muslims' control."

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...7bb&k=66020

Edited October 4, 2007 by ScottSA

[Argus]

i would say, we should disapprove of that. ignoring for a moment whether this poll of yours is valid, or whether it was used in a manipulative way, for example by polling the people coming from of a known extremist cleric. a poll is just a snapshot but in any case it means, at least 60% of the people do not favour sharia law.

And why are you so sure that if the poll errs it errs on that side? Perhaps it's more than 40% who want Sharia law but the others were too afraid to admit it in these days.

so more than half the muslims you meet in britain are against it, and we should not treat them with hatred or agitation, lest they be easily converted to join the groups who want to overthrow our just society. that would be a big mistake.

A bigger mistake would be continuing to bring over people of that sort of thinking.

for example, ignorant, racist, bigoted youth may want to attack a muslim who is sitting on a bus, for no reason other than that they have heard some hate filled propaganda. they believe there is no difference in any muslims, that all are a threat by virtue of being muslim, identify them by their clothing and behaviour, and attack innocent people.

I read a lot of papers and somehow I can't recall that ever happening. Odd, since it would be sure to be the lead item on the CBC that night. However, we do get a lot of "swarming" in this town - by Muslim youths.

[Argus]

Turkey ?

(kurdish area notwithstanding)

In fact, all womens groups in Turkey are united in their opposition to a new constitution being put together by Turkey's new "Islamic light" government. It removes equality for women and puts them into a special "protected" category. Islamic groups have been steadily gaining ground in Turkey. I read an analysis a month or so back which basically said Turkey had had it's last secular (non Islamic) government. That support for Muslim parties is heaviest among the younger voters, and with their burgeoning numbers the secular parties were only going to see lower support year after year now.

And btw, I'm not sure you would call Turkey's government enlightened other than in comparison with most other Muslim nations. Torture is still widely practiced there.

[Argus]

Me too, and I think you are deranged

And I find you oh so impressive.