"Death to Canada!"

[M.Dancer]

I'm still flabberghasted at the allusion of friends taking long hot showers together.........couldn't we just sit down with a few beers and watch 300...or west side story even?

[Army Guy]

Tbud:

Is this how you debate, you throw a topic out there and we have to pull the your postion out of you...

This is a new concept ?

[Army Guy]

Dancer, it would take alot more than that to flabberghast you....Did'nt you say you were Navy...

[M.Dancer]

Dancer, it would take alot more than that to flabberghast you....Did'nt you say you were Navy...

No I'm perectly normal thank you.

........Black Watch Militia, about a generation ago

And I have never, ever, ever performed the Dance of the Flaming Assholes.

[trex]

Tbud:

Is this how you debate, you throw a topic out there and we have to pull the your postion out of you...

This is a new concept ?

what topic, what debate... you really think i will change your mind, or you mine... such arguments are a waste of time and bandwidth

"Sounds like the history of mankind, is that your only bitch..."

therefore you agree and you dont mind seeing soldiers and civilians perish for said reasons. so no debate there... but for your obvious indifference and possibly even support of continued injustice

[old_bold&cold]

Tbud

I must ask the question of just why were these people killed? Were they in some way attacking the soldiers or standing in the way of soldiers who were trying to get at Taliban for instance. As this article noted that the place where this happened was a noted hot bed for insugent sympathiser's. So if we use our own intelligence to think about this, it would seem obvious that things are not at all what they seem. I would find it very disturbing to think that Nato would attack a village without cause or intell, to warrant such action. So where is the other side to this story? Why post this onesided and inflamatory story, unless you are just doing so to raise shit here in the forums. Since you and it seems your friiend, seem to have taken the idea that we are all in need of your wisdom, I then take it that you are 100% opposed to the war and all it entails. Even if it does bring about something good. We welcome honest disscussion of opposing views, but please leave the animosity out of it.

It is very rude of you to just come and decide that you know better then all the other members and think you will somehow convert them into your narrow minded view of things. I hope you can fit in here, and by that I do not mean you have to be like the rest in your views but rather be like the rest in behaving in a calm and openminded way.

[guyser]

pissing off villagers??

you can follow anyone off a cliff if you want to.

you think its all a big joke, right. funny. college boy. go back to your books, beer and tities

leave real politics to the adults

Apparently you have some sand in your mangina.

A protest about something we didnt do and I am supposed to cry with you? Now that is college stuff, you know, getting all worked up and in a tizzy.......only to find out perhaps we had nothing to do with it?

College boy...moi? I'd love to be , well 'cept for the books , but the "beer and tities" sound like fun.

I will leave politics to the adults, so what the hell are you doing posting on this?

Edited September 27, 2007 by guyser

[AngusThermopyle]

the real defeated one was great britain, but that is all besides the point

O'kay. A statement made with no explanation of meaning and no facts to back it up.

You're off to a good start.

[Army Guy]

TBud:

what topic, what debate... you really think i will change your mind, or you mine... such arguments are a waste of time and bandwidth

Another new concept, only here i think we call it trolling, I think you'll find most on this board very open minded and willing to learn from both sides of the argument.

If your so passionate about this topic you need to explain why ? and really that is what a forum is all about debate, aleast here anyway. or is it your afraid your beliefs may not hold up to debate.

therefore you agree and you dont mind seeing soldiers and civilians perish for said reasons. so no debate there... but for your obvious indifference and possibly even support of continued injustice

You have no idea what my thoughts are ,nor do you care. your right and i'm wrong period. Do you actually think that the cape and tights are going to change the way man has acted for thousands of years.

and what injustice is being done in Afgan ?

[trex]

TBud:

Another new concept, only here i think we call it trolling

Do you actually think that the cape and tights are going to change the way man has acted for thousands of years.

->I think you'll find most on this board very open minded and willing to learn from both sides of the argument.

then perhaps i have not met them yet...

->You have no idea what my thoughts are ,nor do you care. your right and i'm wrong period. Do you actually think that the cape and tights are going to change the way man has acted for thousands of years.

well by your glib acceptance of status quo with the empire, and being an "army guy" its pretty simple to connect the dots here.

i am totally against the concept of blindly following orders of the "commander". because i know the commander is just another dumb shit too, and after thousands of years of making the same mistakes over and over again, the next generation is ready to follow the leaders orders, which are given from the back of the line.

you know what insanity is, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. the war in afghan fits this description

so i prefer to be outside the box, to ask for a different solution than the same old tired methods

and with todays mechanized warfare, global economy and multinationals, its a different game, worse.

who protects the rights of the citizens? no one. certainly not the troops, lets get over the illusion

as you yourself just admitted, they work for empire and empire alone.

now what do you have to say, besides trying to make me look silly with the continued cape references? not much

besides asking me for my 'credentials'? not much

i mean about the topic, since you have such a need to debate, to justify in your mind whats being done

amongst my comments i do throw out somel ideas about what i think is really going on

i have heard nothing useful yet from you, besides ridicule and tainted questions

still waiting for those reasonable, open minded people who can discuss both sides, mr ambassador

[M.Dancer]

I like cheese.

[Moxie]

The biggest challenge to the military in Afghanistan is corruption, generations of corrupt tribal leaders who steal from the staving and the poor. It's easy for those who have never known peace to point a finger at the troops but the fact is until the people of Afghanistan elect leaders for their skills and not tribal loyality there will never be peace in that country. The people of Afghanistan are one hundred years behind current advanced society and it will be their choice if they want to have a democratic future or go back to living in the year seven hundred (The Taliban's version of society). It's time for the people of Afghanistan to stop hooting and hollering VICTIM and deal with radical Islamists. We can only do so much, it's time for the people to step up to the plate and decide their future.

[weaponeer]

Tbud,

We are in the 21st century... There are no such things as empires, do you even know what an empire is??? They do no exist, they are a thing of the past, like communisum!!

Pulling out the references to "Empires & Imperialists" is a bunch of old hack, worn out old leftard nonsense. Rational people don't buy it!!!

[AndrewL]

The biggest challenge to the military in Afghanistan is corruption, generations of corrupt tribal leaders who steal from the staving and the poor. It's easy for those who have never known peace to point a finger at the troops but the fact is until the people of Afghanistan elect leaders for their skills and not tribal loyality there will never be peace in that country. The people of Afghanistan are one hundred years behind current advanced society and it will be their choice if they want to have a democratic future or go back to living in the year seven hundred (The Taliban's version of society). It's time for the people of Afghanistan to stop hooting and hollering VICTIM and deal with radical Islamists. We can only do so much, it's time for the people to step up to the plate and decide their future.

What if their decision is to resist NATO? Will we respect that?

Andrew

[AndrewL]

Tbud,

We are in the 21st century... There are no such things as empires, do you even know what an empire is??? They do no exist, they are a thing of the past, like communisum!!

Pulling out the references to "Empires & Imperialists" is a bunch of old hack, worn out old leftard nonsense. Rational people don't buy it!!!

Can you please define empire for us weaponeer?

Andrew

[M.Dancer]

What if their decision is to resist NATO? Will we respect that?

Andrew

They may one day decide to send an Afghan to Mars.....but the here and now is they want NATO to stay.

Do you respect that?

[old_bold&cold]

So Tbud you would rather we let the afghan people go adrift and have the Taliban come back, once again forcing all to live by their antiquated demands and women having to be treated as chattle, and no rights what so ever. Not evven to an education, or the right to refuse any man who has taken her through barter? Is that what you say we should do? If as you say there is no place for war and armies taking sides in this, that is exactly what would be going on. Allowing this would only embolden the taliban to push even further into their ways and then spread the terrorism they preach, to go beyond the borders where there only reason is to make all submit to Islam, or die.

I do not know about you, but I feel that we do have reasons for taking opposition to such beliefs and yes if necessary go to war to allow the people of Afghanistan who were having this forced upon them, to have a say in what they want to believe and how they want to have their country run. Yes, it is a shame that we may well have to kill some in the process and that also means we will also suffer causalities in this as well. You believe you can do this by talking instead of war. So why have you not got on a plane and go over there to show us just how you will accomplish this task? Instead you want to sit over here in Canada and spue your vile against thegood our troops are trying to accomplish. You would never dare try to act on what you say is the real problems and your way to handle this, so what gives you the idea that people here on this board will take you seriously in what you say?

You come here and insult the way the government has committed its troops, you then insult Armyguy who is on the ground in Afghanistan, which is where you would never go. So when I say that you sicken me, it is not that I am feverish and throwing up but rather that I can not understand how and what ever gave you the thought that you have a right to sayt he things about any of this, when it is obvious that you have no idea about what it is all about in the first place. If you have any real things to debate, then please make your points in an calm, and collective way, and we will discuss them. But if all you are going to do is spue your idealistic propaganda then we will ask you to leave, or refrain from posting until you can show real proof of all the ings you claim. You sound very young and childish to me and I do not feel like I want to raise another child.

[trex]

The biggest challenge to the military in Afghanistan is corruption, generations of corrupt tribal leaders who steal from the staving and the poor. It's easy for those who have never known peace to point a finger at the troops but the fact is until the people of Afghanistan elect leaders for their skills and not tribal loyality there will never be peace in that country. The people of Afghanistan are one hundred years behind current advanced society and it will be their choice if they want to have a democratic future or go back to living in the year seven hundred (The Taliban's version of society).

It's time for the people of Afghanistan to stop hooting and hollering VICTIM and deal with radical Islamists. We can only do so much, it's time for the people to step up to the plate and decide their future.

your observations are correct, but your conclusion is faulty. imo...

the people have been victimized for over 100 years by different empires whose only interest is controlling the region for purposes of power. those people are like you and me, powerless. they cannot help themselves under the control of these warlords, some of whom are armed by our western governments.

if we want to marginalize the extremists, we are going about it completely the wrong way. by taking them on militarily, in their own lands they ultimately resort to guerilla tactics and terrorism, using the local people as human shields to infuriate the general public against the west. because, to put it simply, what they have in the immediate now is far worse than before, under a repressive regime yes but not at risk of being killed from either side. any idea that this is all wirth it for "the future" is totally abstract to them.

so we are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline,

we give them an argument against us, as a weapon. the youth will want to fight back against what is seen as illegal invaders, occupiers, not helpers. even with the best of intentions, the enemy uses propaganda and heartless killing of their own in order to make us appear the bad guy. and once they hate us, we cannot win

[AndrewL]

They may one day decide to send an Afghan to Mars.....but the here and now is they want NATO to stay.

Do you respect that?

I have no reason to believe it. If it was true we would not still be in the exact same position after 5 years.

Andrew

[weaponeer]

Can you please define empire for us weaponeer?

Andrew

Empires, such as the Roman, Turk Ottoman, British, etc... The Romans conquered their known world, they invaded and subjugated people. They used "local talent" at times to rule, but Rome called the shots. The wealth and riches of these lands were used to increase Rome’s wealth. Same with the British, they colonized the world, thank God, and exported the wealth of their colonies to England.

It was not right then, it is not right now, but what is done is done.

No, there are no empires today, sorry!! The Americans, because that is the example that everybody likes to use is not an empire, they are not imperialist. They have a free market economy, they are interested in buying from and selling too the world. They do not exploit people in the Middle East. They spend BILLIONS of dollars on oil from countries such as Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait etc... These are extremely rich nations. Nations such as Yemen, Syria etc have nothing to offer the free market world, so they are undeveloped. That's not the USA's or anyone else's fault. The US has the most powerful military in the world; if they chose to unleash it nobody could stop them. They do not NATO or the UN. That being said, if they were imperialist as the British/Romans were they could just take the oil, and not pay for it and destroy anyone who opposes them. Saudi, Qatar etc would not be rich nations. In short, imperialists do not pay for resources & products, they take them!!!

The Americans are not exploiting Afghanistan, this place does not really have anything to offer the free market world at this time, and we are here to help them.

I choose to look at the positives, not live my life in the negative, feeling sorry for myself and pointing out every fault with my country, society and way of life. I like western society & culture, so does most of the world. Nobody is lined up to immigrate to Iran or Venezuela, and the socialist utopia needed a wall to keep people in!!!

[M.Dancer]

I have no reason to believe it. If it was true we would not still be in the exact same position after 5 years.

Andrew

You have a logic problem. B does not follow A

I think you can agree that Canadians do not want street crime. Yet after years and years street crime still exists.

According to your logic, Canadians must want street crime.

Lets put it another way. The will of the Afgan people is being thwarted by war lords and the Taliban. It has been for qalmost 20 years since the Soviet occupation and before that, 100 years.

There is no reason to believe that the situation would change in only 5 years. How long did it take to destroy the Shining Path?

[trex]

So Tbud you would rather we let the afghan people go adrift and have the Taliban come back, once again forcing all to live by their antiquated demands and women having to be treated as chattle, and no rights what so ever. Not evven to an education, or the right to refuse any man who has taken her through barter? Is that what you say we should do? If as you say there is no place for war and armies taking sides in this, that is exactly what would be going on. Allowing this would only embolden the taliban to push even further into their ways and then spread the terrorism they preach, to go beyond the borders where there only reason is to make all submit to Islam, or die.

you see you are just thinking in black and white, as is in vogue these days, stylish

"your either with us, or your with the terrorists" is the modern mantra today.

it may shock someones conscience to find out what they have been led to believe is a lie. in that case, anyone who is in the military and wants to continue without too much mental stress should stay quiet, not read the news or web sites. you may hear things you dont like to hear.

and i am sorry for those who choose to give their life to the state, without question.

but my way is in their defence, i fight for them, that they do nbot give their life frivolously for the sake of big business. someone should make sure, any soldier dies for his country, it was for a worthwhile cause.

not a public that just nodding and braying like donkeys to believe anything what we are told, but to question, for the benefit of those whi WILL die, why it is necessary.

and when i hear a cock-and-bull story that affects so many people, i have the right to ask the hard question

so it is people like you, perhaps, that endangers the troops who are vulnerable, by their absolute sense of duty. if the wrong person is in power, or make the wrong dicision, they die anyway. who else will speak for them, who will say "it is not necessary for them to die for this"? perhaps not you

--------------------

"what ever gave you the thought that you have a right to sayt he things about any of this, when it is obvious that you have no idea about what it is all about in the first place."

you see these are the unnecessary comments that make you seem like a pompous ass. just cut it out. anyone should have the right to speak out against the war.

"refrain from posting until you can show real proof of all the ings you claim."

what claim, what proof. its a news article. try reading all the news, not just the stuff that makes you feel safe and comfortable.

open your heart, old person, or is it rusted shut from years of bitterness. i amdefending the humanity, not big business who now runs our show. i am defending the kids, the young people who are easily fooled into believing what the corporate mouthpiece tell them. i am defending the troops, from abuse by powerful manipulative corporations and government in bed.

[old_bold&cold]

the people have been victimized for over 100 years by different empires whose only interest is controlling the region for purposes of power. those people are like you and me, powerless. they cannot help themselves under the control of these warlords, some of whom are armed by our western governments.

You first need to understand Afghanistan and realise that controlling it would never bring any real power to anyone. The country is not rich in Oil or agriculture and for the most part barely sustains its own population. Only recently there has been the opium markets, and that has become the major income for most of the land. So you are wrong that it has endured occupation to boost power, as it never really had anything that compelling to begin with. Its occupations were only for political purposes not due to anything else.

if we want to marginalize the extremists, we are going about it completely the wrong way. by taking them on militarily, in their own lands they ultimately resort to guerilla tactics and terrorism, using the local people as human shields to infuriate the general public against the west. because, to put it simply, what they have in the immediate now is far worse than before, under a repressive regime yes but not at risk of being killed from either side. any idea that this is all wirth it for "the future" is totally abstract to them.

If you really think that the people of Afghanistan would rather live under the rule of the Taliban, then you are wrong, and the fact that most of the Afghani people have expressed there wish to have the NATO alliance there to help protect and rid the country of the old Taliban is proof of this. It is the old war lord structure that is supportting the Taliban, becaude under them they could play their corrupt rulings and gain the power they once had. These are the people who fear the country becoming a democratic place. Their only skill was to rule by fear and once that is gone, they will have to work to get by just like those who do so now. You are also wrong that the Afghanni people do not look to the future, as it is that very looking forward that they fear will happen if NATO leaves them without proper support.

so we are trying to put out the fire by pouring gasoline,

we give them an argument against us, as a weapon. the youth will want to fight back against what is seen as illegal invaders, occupiers, not helpers. even with the best of intentions, the enemy uses propaganda and heartless killing of their own in order to make us appear the bad guy. and once they hate us, we cannot win

You assume that the people who are fighting against us are mostly Afghanni, when it really is not so. Most of the insurgency have come from all over the areas outside of Afghanistan, as they want to see the Taliban once again control the country, so they have a safe haven for training camps and a place to come to where they can not be pursued by normal legal channels. The youth of Afghanistan have now a more positive outlook at what the future can hold for them. They are being educated and will have way more opportunities for them now then at any time before. The only ones who are the way you are claiming, are those who would not educate their child even if it were possible they are semi-nomandic and most of them work in the opium and drug trades for their money. There is little future things in these people as they have been doing this for all there lives. These are the ones who will fight for the Taliban and not becaue it is what they want, but it will allow them to keep their lives the same. Only long term influence will change any of there minds on that, but it has to start some where, and now is as good a time as any.

I have given you just a quick response to the issues you say you are trying to debate, there are 100's more reasons but I feel these here are a good starting point.

[trex]

Empires, such as the Roman, Turk Ottoman, British, etc... The Romans conquered their known world, they invaded and subjugated people. They used "local talent" at times to rule, but Rome called the shots. The wealth and riches of these lands were used to increase Rome’s wealth. Same with the British, they colonized the world, thank God, and exported the wealth of their colonies to England.

It was not right then, it is not right now, but what is done is done.

No, there are no empires today, sorry!! The Americans, because that is the example that everybody likes to use is not an empire, they are not imperialist. They have a free market economy, they are interested in buying from and selling too the world. They do not exploit people in the Middle East. They spend BILLIONS of dollars on oil from countries such as Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait etc... These are extremely rich nations. Nations such as Yemen, Syria etc have nothing to offer the free market world, so they are undeveloped. That's not the USA's or anyone else's fault. The US has the most powerful military in the world; if they chose to unleash it nobody could stop them. They do not NATO or the UN. That being said, if they were imperialist as the British/Romans were they could just take the oil, and not pay for it and destroy anyone who opposes them. Saudi, Qatar etc would not be rich nations. In short, imperialists do not pay for resources & products, they take them!!!

The Americans are not exploiting Afghanistan, this place does not really have anything to offer the free market world at this time, and we are here to help them.

I choose to look at the positives, not live my life in the negative, feeling sorry for myself and pointing out every fault with my country, society and way of life. I like western society & culture, so does most of the world. Nobody is lined up to immigrate to Iran or Venezuela, and the socialist utopia needed a wall to keep people in!!!

i am sorry you are so out of touch with certain facts.

every point you made about empire applies to the united states today.

they use local talent to rule, but they call the shots.

the wealth and riches of other lands will be used to increase their wealth.

in some cases it is done directly, militarily. in others, by poltical and economic means.

the british colonized the world, "thank god". lets ask the people of india about it. lets ask native canadians about it. lets ask africans, black americans of slave descent, about it. even afghanistan in the 1800's. thank your god

for your information afghanistan is strategically critical to the region and oil companies like Dick Cheneys haliburton have drawn up plans for "investment" in a major oil pipeline.

if you have read paul wolfowitz blueprint for an american century you would know this, but you probably have not.

[old_bold&cold]

i am sorry you are so out of touch with certain facts.

every point you made about empire applies to the united states today.

they use local talent to rule, but they call the shots.

the wealth and riches of other lands will be used to increase their wealth.

in some cases it is done directly, militarily. in others, by poltical and economic means.

the british colonized the world, "thank god". lets ask the people of india about it. lets ask native canadians about it. lets ask africans, black americans of slave descent, about it. even afghanistan in the 1800's. thank your god

for your information afghanistan is strategically critical to the region and oil companies like Dick Cheneys haliburton have drawn up plans for "investment" in a major oil pipeline.

if you have read paul wolfowitz blueprint for an american century you would know this, but you probably have not.

The Oil pipeline you talk about is to bring oil to China, there are no known oil reserves in Afghanistan and for the most part there are no real mineral or natural resources that would be of any large value in the country. IT main reason for being was back in the time of overland trade routes. That time has past and it is now mostly home for the huge number of truck drivers who still transport goods across Afghanistan to other countries, but the goods do not originate in that country. That is the only reason the Russians wanted it as well.