The Politics of Victimization

[jbg]

The Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur, and my observance of the dignified, reflective nature of the observance, inspired the writing of this diary. Since I went to services last night, this is a diary in the true sense of the word; designed to record thoughts as they occur.

The temple I went to had approximately 1000 people worshiping, in first shift services, and another thousand were due for second shift. The people came and went peacefully, in a civil and orderly manner. The Rabbi gave a cerebral "sermon" on the hazards of atheism as popularized in recent best-sellers. I am sure that not everyone agreed with the sermon, but the discussion about it was civilized and respectful.

When one opens the news, it is rife with displays of "playing the victim card", where the "victims" are more or less helpless before greater forces. More often than not, their response involves varying degrees of dysfunctionality and even violence.

1. Katrina;
   
2. The"fate" of "First Nations" in Canada (link);
   
3. The "fate" of the "Palestinians".
   

The list,and the beat, goes on. The common thread in all of this is that the "victims" are doing little to alleviate their own fate. In New Orleans, the people are sitting by waiting for a bailout that likely will not come (for reasons involving the fact that most of the money would be dissipated in municipal corruption). The schools remain violent places. Why it is that the parents of these students make little effort to foster values at home conducive to study or achievement is beyond me.

In Canada, the First Nations largely inhabit fetid "reserves" which are rife with alchoholism, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, etc. Well intentioned people who have gone to provide educational service on the reserves have left in tears after being subjected to violent attacks. Now, the "First Nations" are dredging up ancient "land claims" in order to make development in parts of Ontario impossible. They are threatening in the process to upend settled property rights and all further development.

The "Palestinians" could be absolrbed by other Arabs the same way Israel, at the time a new and destitute country, absorbed hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Arab cities arfter centuries of inhabitation. Instead, they are left to fester in refugee camps and in Gaza, listening to perorations of "jihad" by demagogues who stay safe and sound behind, while hormone-fueled 17 year olds are urged to blow themselves up in order to kill Israelis.

This is morally bankruptcy and disgusting.

Which brings us back to the Jewish congregation and Yom Kippur worship. The Jews would make the perfect victims. Not only the Holocaust, but centuries of legal discrimination and pogroms have been waged against them. Even during the "golden" Moorish era the Jews faced grinding discrimination under dhimmitude. In Christian Europe, they faced death at worst and discrimination at best. Only the opening of the New World provided relief. If they were stuck in Europe, they'd be dead, and I wouldn't be composing this diary.

Why don't the Jews play the victim card? Where are the UN resolutions, and the hectoring press that calls Bush to task for Katrina and the Palestinians?

[ScottSA]

Why don't the Jews play the victim card? Where are the UN resolutions, and the hectoring press that calls Bush to task for Katrina and the Palestinians?

Because the Jews have a secret plan to run the world, and they steal all the money and sacrifice Christian babies. Haven't you heard?

But in all seriousness, some Jews DO play the victim card, and have in fact overplayed it in the case of the holocaust. I believe that a great deal of the latent anti-semitism on the left has come into being, in Europe at least, as a result of the neverending glorification of holocaust victimhood. Jews are not the only ones who suffered genocide, yet were an extraterrestrial to skim through late 20th century western history books, he would quite likely come away convinced that the Jews were the only ones.

Having said that, I believe you are not only talking about victimhood per se, but about using it as an excuse to lie down and quit, and on that point I strongly agree. The Jews have suffered far more than the Palestinians, yet the Palestinians prefer to snivel and fire rockets than to get on with life, while the Jews do the opposite. The Jews have built a state with a fraction of the resources available to the Arabs, and have made it shine besides the backwards third worldism of the rest of the region. Jews excel in every country they go to, whether they are oppressed or not. Maybe it's because their leaders don't convince them they are second class, maybe it's because they are raised better...who knows...but there is a real difference.

[jbg]

But in all seriousness, some Jews DO play the victim card, and have in fact overplayed it in the case of the holocaust. I believe that a great deal of the latent anti-semitism on the left has come into being, in Europe at least, as a result of the neverending glorification of holocaust victimhood. Jews are not the only ones who suffered genocide, yet were an extraterrestrial to skim through late 20th century western history books, he would quite likely come away convinced that the Jews were the only ones.

Overplayed it?

Are we strapping bombs onto our children? Is our request for military aid out of proportion to the stratagic value of a stable democracy in that vital, explosive part of the world? Does aid given to Israel disappear down ratholes like it does on the reserves, to the Palestinians, or (it is suspected) to New Orleans?

I usually agree with you. That post is abhorrent and I hope it doesn't reflect your best thinking.

[Guest American Woman]

That post is abhorrent ....

Let me see if I understand this correctely; you are saying it's abhorrent for someone to suggest that the Jews overplay the victim card, but it's just fine and dandy for you to accuse the people of New Orleans, the Palestinians, and the First Nation people of doing the same? Because fyi, I find the accusations you made in your post abhorrent.

[jennie]

Let me see if I understand this correctely; you are saying it's abhorrent for someone to suggest that the Jews overplay the victim card, but it's just fine and dandy for you to accuse the people of New Orleans, the Palestinians, and the First Nation people of doing the same? Because fyi, I find the accusations you made in your post abhorrent.

me too.

[ScottSA]

Overplayed it?

Are we strapping bombs onto our children? Is our request for military aid out of proportion to the stratagic value of a stable democracy in that vital, explosive part of the world? Does aid given to Israel disappear down ratholes like it does on the reserves, to the Palestinians, or (it is suspected) to New Orleans?

I usually agree with you. That post is abhorrent and I hope it doesn't reflect your best thinking.

I think you're failing to make the distinction between playing a victim hand and using it to justify sloth and and/or violence. One can do the first but not the second; the two are not synonymous.

[Peter F]

Why don't the Jews play the victim card?

They did. Thus Israel.

[jbg]

They did. Thus Israel.

Israel was created when the Brits abandoned the Palestine Mandate, musch as they more or less walked away from India/Pakistan et. al. Israel is a real country, with real economic activity. Not so New Orleans (though a municipality, little salvageable economic activity), Palestine or whatever they want to call Caledonia. The foregoing are purely wards of a viable government, or the UN.

[Bonam]

I tend to agree that a lot of groups that complain about their terrible misfortune these days really would be best off if they did something about it themselves, rather than hoping someone else will do it for them. Whether they like it or not, natives, Palestinians, and various other groups, could greatly improve their situation by simply working harder to do so. Instead, however, many/most of them choose to just whine to a higher power and hope someone else fixes everything for them. All kinds of excuses for this can (and have) been made, and various historical/social reasoning can be used to try to explain this situation, but it can hardly be denied. In any case, that approach simply doesn't work, as can be seen by the enduring problems of the above mentioned groups.

Conclusion: people need to get off their asses and help themselves.

And jbg's point I think is simply to point out that Jews, which have suffered a great many injustices throughout history, certainly no less than any of the other groups that were mentioned, nevertheless have achieved great success with the "help yourself" approach, and that other groups would do well to do the same.

[jennie]

I tend to agree that a lot of groups that complain about their terrible misfortune these days really would be best off if they did something about it themselves, rather than hoping someone else will do it for them. Whether they like it or not, natives, Palestinians, and various other groups, could greatly improve their situation by simply working harder to do so. Instead, however, many/most of them choose to just whine to a higher power and hope someone else fixes everything for them. All kinds of excuses for this can (and have) been made, and various historical/social reasoning can be used to try to explain this situation, but it can hardly be denied. In any case, that approach simply doesn't work, as can be seen by the enduring problems of the above mentioned groups.

Conclusion: people need to get off their asses and help themselves.

And jbg's point I think is simply to point out that Jews, which have suffered a great many injustices throughout history, certainly no less than any of the other groups that were mentioned, nevertheless have achieved great success with the "help yourself" approach, and that other groups would do well to do the same.

Well Six Nations is not whining. They are doing. But somehow I don't think they are doing what you want them to. However, if that has anything to do with getting educated and getting a job, they have, and now they are doing what they have to do.

[ScottSA]

Well Six Nations is not whining. They are doing. But somehow I don't think they are doing what you want them to. However, if that has anything to do with getting educated and getting a job, they have, and now they are doing what they have to do.

Yeah I saw the video of those fat slugs howling pottymouth at someone. I wish a few good ol' boys would wade into them with 2x4s and teach them what's what. Hell, I'd join the fun myself...

[Peter F]

Yeah I saw the video of those fat slugs howling pottymouth at someone. I wish a few good ol' boys would wade into them with 2x4s and teach them what's what. Hell, I'd join the fun myself...

...except you prefer whining and bleating about how you're victimized by the brown folks.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Peter F

[ScottSA]

...except you prefer whining and bleating about how you're victimized by the brown folks.

Care to point to an example of that?

[Michael Hardner]

Hey Scott,

Sorry to intrude, but Peter F might not be as intimately familiar with your arguments (especially on other boards) as I am, so I thought I might lend a hand in the interest of enlightenment.

I took about 45 seconds to search your posts, Scott, and found what I think qualifies as you whining about 'brown people' on your own forum:

Scott's Hardball

Quote from Sentry:

more kids were killed in Tranta this week than Canadian soldiers in Kandahar.

Scott's reply:

That's because as we're over there thrashing the little brown people, we're over here importing them just as fast.

To, to summarize, you're saying that people with brown skin are the cause of Toronto's murder rate.

Please correct me here, if I've misunderstood.

Cheers,

[ScottSA]

Hey Scott,

Sorry to intrude, but Peter F might not be as intimately familiar with your arguments (especially on other boards) as I am, so I thought I might lend a hand in the interest of enlightenment.

I took about 45 seconds to search your posts, Scott, and found what I think qualifies as you whining about 'brown people' on your own forum:

Scott's Hardball

Scott's reply:

That's because as we're over there thrashing the little brown people, we're over here importing them just as fast.

To, to summarize, you're saying that people with brown skin are the cause of Toronto's murder rate.

Please correct me here, if I've misunderstood.

Cheers,

Nope. You've decontextualized it of course, as is your wont, but hey, I said it. So what?

[Michael Hardner]

Scott,

But in all seriousness, some Jews DO play the victim card, and have in fact overplayed it in the case of the holocaust.

I notice now that you're in favour of deporting all Muslims from Canada. Some might call this a case of you overplaying the 9/11 victim card. I would be one of those some.

It would be unusual for a masterly scholar like yourself to over react in this way, if it were not for your long record of over reactions on your own forum.

Carry on, if only for our amusement.

[ScottSA]

Scott,

I notice now that you're in favour of deporting all Muslims from Canada. Some might call this a case of you overplaying the 9/11 victim card. I would be one of those some.

It would be unusual for a masterly scholar like yourself to over react in this way, if it were not for your long record of over reactions on your own forum.

Carry on, if only for our amusement.

Stop trolling Mikey. You surely must have something better to do?

[Michael Hardner]

Hey there Scott,

You've never accused me of trolling before, but then again I've never had the luxury of posting comments from your own forum onto a respectable one such as MapleLeaf, so I'm not surprised that you don't have a response.

As for this:

Nope. You've decontextualized it of course, as is your wont, but hey, I said it. So what?

So what ? Your discussion with Peter F ended with your call for proof of your 'whining'. ( His words. ) I'll accept 'so what?' as your first ever concession of a point another poster has made.

Thanks,

[Higgly]

The Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur, and my observance of the dignified, reflective nature of the observance, inspired the writing of this diary. Since I went to services last night, this is a diary in the true sense of the word; designed to record thoughts as they occur.

The temple I went to had approximately 1000 people worshiping, in first shift services, and another thousand were due for second shift. The people came and went peacefully, in a civil and orderly manner. The Rabbi gave a cerebral "sermon" on the hazards of atheism as popularized in recent best-sellers. I am sure that not everyone agreed with the sermon, but the discussion about it was civilized and respectful.

Well so much for atonement. I have to say though that you Jews have a leg up on the Christians and Moslems when it comes to the service. You get to have a discussion. The Christians and Moslems just have to sit there and take it. Try that on a Sunday morning after a full breakfast or a Friday after a full morning at the office.

When one opens the news, it is rife with displays of "playing the victim card", where the "victims" are more or less helpless before greater forces. More often than not, their response involves varying degrees of dysfunctionality and even violence.

1. Katrina;
   
2. The"fate" of "First Nations" in Canada (link);
   
3. The "fate" of the "Palestinians".
   

The list,and the beat, goes on. The common thread in all of this is that the "victims" are doing little to alleviate their own fate. In New Orleans, the people are sitting by waiting for a bailout that likely will not come (for reasons involving the fact that most of the money would be dissipated in municipal corruption). The schools remain violent places. Why it is that the parents of these students make little effort to foster values at home conducive to study or achievement is beyond me.

A lot of them are waiting for a bailout because their insurance companies either renegged or abandonned them. Then there is the whole "did not engineer the levy right" thing. Of course there is also this whole thing about the federal and state governments coming in with grand statements on TV about how they were going to make it right.

In Canada, the First Nations largely inhabit fetid "reserves" which are rife with alchoholism, drug abuse, teen pregnancy, etc. Well intentioned people who have gone to provide educational service on the reserves have left in tears after being subjected to violent attacks. Now, the "First Nations" are dredging up ancient "land claims" in order to make development in parts of Ontario impossible. They are threatening in the process to upend settled property rights and all further development.

Ever been on a reserve, jbg? Ever talked to a real Indian? Report back once you have.

The "Palestinians" could be absolrbed by other Arabs the same way Israel, at the time a new and destitute country, absorbed hundreds of thousands of Jews expelled from Arab cities arfter centuries of inhabitation. Instead, they are left to fester in refugee camps and in Gaza, listening to perorations of "jihad" by demagogues who stay safe and sound behind, while hormone-fueled 17 year olds are urged to blow themselves up in order to kill Israelis.

I love it. Israel created the problem and now the damned Arabs had better just clean it up for us or else, or else, or else we'll just be soooo mad!

This is morally bankruptcy and disgusting.

Er....

Which brings us back to the Jewish congregation and Yom Kippur worship. The Jews would make the perfect victims. Not only the Holocaust, but centuries of legal discrimination and pogroms have been waged against them. Even during the "golden" Moorish era the Jews faced grinding discrimination under dhimmitude. In Christian Europe, they faced death at worst and discrimination at best. Only the opening of the New World provided relief. If they were stuck in Europe, they'd be dead, and I wouldn't be composing this diary.

Why don't the Jews play the victim card? Where are the UN resolutions, and the hectoring press that calls Bush to task for Katrina and the Palestinians?

Do you see any lack of sympathy for the Holocaust here? Do you see anybody denying it? Do you see anybody saying the Jews were not victims? Do you see the Jews being victimized in this country in any way? Some time time ago, a bunch of kids spray painted the words "Jewz Suck" on the garage of some poor guy in Toronto. It was instantly on all the news broadcasts. Within a week, the mayor, the premier of the province, and the chief of police all got together at the same podium, at the same time, and denounced this act. Can you imagine the immense scheduling shuffle that this required? I am sorry to put it to you in these terms, jbg, but when was the last time any one of these guys got up at a podium and get upset because somebody spray-painted the word "nigger" somewhere. Get a grip, man.

Where you get into trouble, jbg, is when you start hauling out the Holocaust as a justification for what is happening to the Palestinians. Can you not see the irony of what is being done to these people in your name? In your name jbg.

Edited September 23, 2007 by Higgly

[myata]

Oh come on. Not another "Israel good, Palestinians bad" thread. Or maybe you believe a very infamous individual who said "a lie repeated thousand times becomes truth"? Usually when people know they did something they know is wrong, they look for a rationalization

(i.e. a reason why they had a right, cause, and so on, to do what they did).

The truth of the matter is, of course, that Israel was created in a violent manner without agreement of the native population. That has created a major problem which will ripple through the region (and maybe outside it) for years and generations. No volume of talk will change it because its a fact of history. If people there were really good and wise as you want to paint them, shouldn't/wouldn't they have waited longer, maybe much longer, and eventually worked out some kind of a compromise with the natives. If they rashed and did wrong, maybe it's time to recognise and admit it, atone for the wrongs, and finally, work out some kind of a compromise with Palestinians?

[jbg]

Nope. You've decontextualized it of course, as is your wont, but hey, I said it. So what?

Scott, I think you could make your points better and stronger by shaving off what looks like rank bigotry on some of them.

[Keepitsimple]

Here we go again....it's not inaccurate to say that Israel got off their butts and made something good happen. The Israel/Palestinian situation is not that different from the India/Pakistan partition - which after initial bloodshed, has resulted in two democracies. In 1947, Britain granted independence to India and at the same time, created the countries of India and Pakistan. "Partition" to accommodate religious sectors had been brewing for years. somewhat clumsily guided by the League of Nations. The ensuing displacement of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims was massive - as was the violence....but it abated to a large degree. India and Pakistan accepted partition and the pain of displacement and evolved to democratic countries. Arab countries did not accept partition at all - in fact, they stole the ability of Palestinians to determine their own future by attacking Israel.....and here we are today, 60 years later. Here's the link to the creation of Independent India and Pakistan - I've positioned the link on the Population Exchanges because that will show the similarity to what could have happened in the Middle East - but there is an interesting historical context to partitioning....so you might want to scroll back up to the beginning.

Partintion of India/Pakistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

[bush_cheney2004]

The truth of the matter is, of course, that Israel was created in a violent manner without agreement of the native population. That has created a major problem which will ripple through the region (and maybe outside it) for years and generations. No volume of talk will change it because its a fact of history.

Hmmmm....seems to me that Canada and the USA did much the same....I shall not hold my breath waiting for the "agreements" of native populations. Accordingly, rocket attacks should begin at once against "The Crown".

Edited September 24, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

Here we go again....it's not inaccurate to say that Israel got off their butts and made something good happen. The Israel/Palestinian situation is not that different from the India/Pakistan partition - which after initial bloodshed, has resulted in two democracies. In 1947, Britain granted independence to India and at the same time, created the countries of India and Pakistan. "Partition" to accommodate religious sectors had been brewing for years. somewhat clumsily guided by the League of Nations. The ensuing displacement of Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims was massive - as was the violence....but it abated to a large degree. India and Pakistan accepted partition and the pain of displacement and evolved to democratic countries. Arab countries did not accept partition at all - in fact, they stole the ability of Palestinians to determine their own future by attacking Israel.....and here we are today, 60 years later. Here's the link to the creation of Independent India and Pakistan - I've positioned the link on the Population Exchanges because that will show the similarity to what could have happened in the Middle East - but there is an interesting historical context to partitioning....so you might want to scroll back up to the beginning.

Partintion of India/Pakistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

Yes, you are right. But these are two very different places with different histories. The Brits did indeed partition India and the slaughter that resulted was awful. The Indians had Ghandi to try to stem the slaughter. He wasn't completely successsful, but at the end of the day he produced a common consensus about what the solution would look like. This guy was probably one of the greatest leaders of all time. Not diminishing the role of Jinnah here, who also played a critical role. Together they brought about a common undertanding about what the solution would look like. This was the most important thing. Everybody understood (admittedly with the exception of the hill stations). Nobody in the Indian/Pakistani situation ever had overwhelming power and so they had to work something out.

What has been missing in the Israeli/Palestinian situation is this great leadership. Arafat was no Ghandi. The Zionists had great leaders at the first Zionist conference, but were progressively derailed by guys like Jabotinsky, Ben Gurion, Meier, Netenyahu and Sharon. Thanks to US intervention, undoubtably with the best intentions, the Israelis had overwhelming power. It was necessary because the Arabs had overwhelming numbers. But having intervened, the Americans could not bring things back to neutral. It got away from them and the Brits were nowhere to be seen.

Nobody has ever been able to develop a consensus about what the solution should look like in the Middle East, and that is the problem.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Higgly

[ScottSA]

Scott, I think you could make your points better and stronger by shaving off what looks like rank bigotry on some of them.

Yeah but you know what JB? I really don't care what it looks like I say. I'm fairly immune to the accusation of "bigotry" and "racism." I grew up in a society in which it was rampant, and often well deserved, and it's more a source of amusement to me that people here are so preoccupied with avoiding something as silly as a charge of it. Gawd, the Han Chinese are all over racism, as are the Japanese and just about every "nation," in the true sense of nation, that exists. So am I and so are you in many ways, and there's nothing particularly wrong with it. I believe this ridiculous pre-occupation with "openmindedness" and "tolerance" is almost a crippling pathology. It's been turned into a VIRTU when in fact it's a failing.