Bush Has a(nother) Bad Day

[Higgly]

I see you haven't resolved your weight issue, please don't let it get to a point where you cross the line again and the mods have to (gasp) delete the namecalling and then the rest of us have to put up with another tantrum thread.

But what's with this obsession with fat? You're not compensating, are you?

Why is it that the right wing always responds to appropriate criticism of its leaders by getting personal? Just no class, I suppose. But then look at their leader. I hear there's going to be a new character on Trailer Park Boys: Steve the doughnut sales clerk who always comes through with a freebie when the boys are in their happy hour and a little short on cash. The punch line is that the box is always a couple of doughnuts short and the rest have had bites taken out of them. First episode, Bubbles gives him a cat and then wonders where it went to and what all those little bones are doing in the doughnut box. Bubbles asks him "Where's the cat?" and Steve mutters something about Kandahar.

In any case, my point regarding Charles Anthony's faux pas was that moderators should not modify threads or titles without some acknowledgement and a without citing a rules-based reason. I know I certainly don't want to have right wing words put in my mouth by someone who is probably just ill-informed on the issue.

Edited September 8, 2007 by Higgly

[Guest American Woman]

Are you sure you understand me? Your response is puzzling since you support my underlying point about bashing Bush leading to bashing americans, and then ask me about communism as if you are proving a point I haven't just made.

I think it's you who doesn't understand. Nowhere did I support your underlying point about bashing Bush leading to bashing Americans. As I said, quite clearly, "Americans in general" are not "Bush" and the bashing of one has absolutely nothing to do with the other-- unless you want to bash those who voted for/support him, which again, entirely different from "Americans in general."

So what's your answer to my question? Are you saying a thread bashing Saddam would not surprisingly lead to bashing Iraqis in general and, more specifically than my earlier question, a thread bashing Castro would not surprisingly lead to bashing Cubans in general?-- You paint citizens with the same brush as their leaders?

[sharkman]

Good for you, I see that perhaps you have slayed the namecalling dragon, although you don't seem to realize that you just got personal about Harper and then hypocritically protest such alleged treatment from someone else.

One dragon at a time I gues, make me proud!

[Higgly]

Good for you, I see that perhaps you have slayed the namecalling dragon, although you don't seem to realize that you just got personal about Harper and then hypocritically protest such alleged treatment from someone else.

One dragon at a time I gues, make me proud!

I love it. A conservative protesting personal attacks on their leader. Too precious.

[Guest American Woman]

I guess Mr. Bush's mind has just been overwhelmed by oil ,of course and Iraq, perhaps and Russia or Iran.

I use VOA news programs to improve my English abilities. VOA makes their program in CDs selling in Chinese bookstores as the English textbooks and listening materials. By this way, VOA serves their purpose, introducing American value and politics to those countries that American public media can not reach, very well.

But only one thing is wrong. If I buy CD, I will buy not only those released in 2007, but alos those released in 2005. Everyday then I listened what good plans of American Mideast policy Mr. Bush talked about in 2005 from my MP3 player in the morning, I would watch the bad results happened now from TV in the evening, so I deeply found how naive he was. I just quote one for instances:

Now, both those democratic demonstrations are shelling each other from border side by side....and if both North and South American states could not negotiate a peace in American Civil War, why did he think Israeli and Palestinian could make peace only by one vote?

Do you mind if I ask where you live, xul?

Your observation regarding the Civil War is definitely thought provoking. Sometimes I feel so hopeless about the war/strife in the world, but when it gets right down to it, maybe it's suprising that there isn't more fighting going on. Looking at how badly so many people treat each other, how little so many care about anyone else, maybe we're just really lucky that we get along as well as we do; that we aren't in a constant state of war.

(That must be my cynical side coming out ... usually I'm an optomist.)

[bush_cheney2004]

But only one thing is wrong. If I buy CD, I will buy not only those released in 2007, but alos those released in 2005. Everyday then I listened what good plans of American Mideast policy Mr. Bush talked about in 2005 from my MP3 player in the morning, I would watch the bad results happened now from TV in the evening, so I deeply found how naive he was.

I will go to my bookstore to find CDs from China Radio International (CRI), in the hope of learning the great vision and policies that China has for the Mideast. Maybe I can learn more about the great oil adventures in Darfur Sudan as well. VOA has much to learn from CRI...I guess?????

[jbg]

The crappy thing is that if it is a democrat the partisans will be out in full force trying to make whoever it is look stupid and awful.... it will be payback. The divisive nature of american politics will only get worse.

Not that our country's does badly over the course of history. Sometimes in spite of rather than because of our President, and always in spite of rather than because of Congress.

[jbg]

Exactly it would be nice to have a leader who treats the world with some respect, but is that possible? I would hope so.

By "world" do you mean the phony consensus of "world opinion" formed by well-connected friends of despots, who get to hang out in New York rather than such humbler abodes as Dar Es Salaam (Tanzania), Accra (Ghana), Kinshasa (Zaire), Damascus, Riyahd, or such other garden spots of the world? Or perhaps you mean people like Hugo Chavez, Kim il Jong or Ahemajad (sp)?

I do not wish that ilk to be treated with any respect whatsoever.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not that our country's does badly over the course of history. Sometimes in spite of rather than because of our President, and always in spite of rather than because of Congress.

Correct...(and that includes Tricky Dick!) The world has "internet voting" for presidential hopefuls, not the PM of Canada or UK.

[Guest American Woman]

By "world" do you mean the phony consensus of "world opinion" formed by well-connected friends of despots, who get to hang out in New York rather than such humbler abodes as Dar Es Salaam (Tanzania), Accra (Ghana), Kinshasa (Zaire), Damascus, Riyahd, or such other garden spots of the world? Or perhaps you mean people like Hugo Chavez, Kim il Jong or Ahemajad (sp)?

I do not wish that ilk to be treated with any respect whatsoever.

Plenty of leaders of that "ilk" have been treated with respect by our presidents. It all depends on whether or not that "ilk" serves our purpose or not.

Any man/woman who cannot treat every leader with respect doesn't have what it takes to be president. Treating someone with respect doesn't mean you respect the person or condone what they are doing. It means you are adult enough, intelligent enough, to realize that this person is in a position of power whether you like it or not, and if anything is to be accomplished, treating them with respect has to be part of the deal. It's a fact that you catch more flies with honey than with vinetar. And it's easy to say 'I'm not going to treat you with respect' and then send someone else, someone else's loved ones, to fight in the war that breaks out because of a refusal to meet/communicate with the other leader with respect.

[jbg]

Plenty of leaders of that "ilk" have been treated with respect by our presidents. It all depends on whether or not that "ilk" serves our purpose or not.

Any man/woman who cannot treat every leader with respect doesn't have what it takes to be president. Treating someone with respect doesn't mean you respect the person or condone what they are doing. It means you are adult enough, intelligent enough, to realize that this person is in a position of power whether you like it or not, and if anything is to be accomplished, treating them with respect has to be part of the deal. It's a fact that you catch more flies with honey than with vinetar. And it's easy to say 'I'm not going to treat you with respect' and then send someone else, someone else's loved ones, to fight in the war that breaks out because of a refusal to meet/communicate with the other leader with respect.

My problem is treating them in any way as representative of world opinion. At best, they are representative of the international foreign policy establishment. At worst, they are thugs.

[Guest American Woman]

My problem is treating them in any way as representative of world opinion. At best, they are representative of the international foreign policy establishment. At worst, they are thugs.

Who said anything about treating them as if they are in any way representative of world opinion? No leader is representative of world opinion.

[sharkman]

I think it's you who doesn't understand. Nowhere did I support your underlying point about bashing Bush leading to bashing Americans. As I said, quite clearly, "Americans in general" are not "Bush" and the bashing of one has absolutely nothing to do with the other-- unless you want to bash those who voted for/support him, which again, entirely different from "Americans in general."

So what's your answer to my question? Are you saying a thread bashing Saddam would not surprisingly lead to bashing Iraqis in general and, more specifically than my earlier question, a thread bashing Castro would not surprisingly lead to bashing Cubans in general?-- You paint citizens with the same brush as their leaders?

I'm sorry but I was confused by your use of the word 'surprisingly' and what meaning you were attaching to it in your above comments. Or perhaps it's the phrase ' would not surprisingly', because I slept on it and still can't follow. And I WILL NOT be asking my wife her opinion on this so I guess I'll just read the thread...

[jbg]

Who said anything about treating them as if they are in any way representative of world opinion? No leader is representative of world opinion.

The dance here seems to be to say that Bush's actions are flying in the face of world opinion. Maybe you didn't say it but an awful lot of people do.

[xul]

Do you mind if I ask where you live, xul?

Your observation regarding the Civil War is definitely thought provoking. Sometimes I feel so hopeless about the war/strife in the world, but when it gets right down to it, maybe it's suprising that there isn't more fighting going on. Looking at how badly so many people treat each other, how little so many care about anyone else, maybe we're just really lucky that we get along as well as we do; that we aren't in a constant state of war.

(That must be my cynical side coming out ... usually I'm an optomist.)

I'm a Chinese and live in Beijing, China. I came here because I applied to imigrate to Canada. I want to get some understanding about Canada and Canadian.

I just mean if People lived in North states and South state of America, both of them have the same culture and history, can not solve their divarication peacefully, we also can imagine how hard to make Israeli and Palestinian, both of them were enemy each other in history for thousands years and the border of their country was defined arbitrarily by UN, living in peace side by side.

I think even Mr. Bush and most of those Americans who support Iraq war also have a good willing. They believe they can establish democracy for Iraqi simply by knocking down Sadaam by war. They don't understand Sadaam or other dictators in some developing countries are only a historic figure in their certain historic stage. Just as Napoleon wanted to be a King of France rather than a governor of Republic. Being a king was not only the willing of him, but also the willing of a lot of Frenches lived in that time. So if Mr. Bush had a time tunnel and sent Amercian troop to defence the freedom of France, those American soldiers would find not only Napoleon but also a lot of Frenches against them. Peoples who believe they can expend democracy by war is just like those old time teacher who corrected their bully pupils by spanking them. Their purpose was right but their way was wrong. Spanking always lead children to more violent than reasonable.

If any Americans have the willing to help developing country for the freedom and democracy, that's great. I just say, changing a regime is easy, but chaning a culture is not easy. So they must be patient, very patient. If majority of white American need a hundred years to understand that seating side by side with a black American in a cinema is harmless, Iraqi and Arabian learning how to use democracy to solve their internal conflicts perhaps needs more time.

[jbg]

Now, both those democratic demonstrations are shelling each other from border side by side....and if both North and South American states could not negotiate a peace in American Civil War, why did he think Israeli and Palestinian could make peace only by one vote?

The northern and southern state cultures were not and are not all that similar. The fact is that the North won the Civil War and now there is peace. An enforced state of limbo (dictated by the US and the UN), prevent Israel from winning a concluisve victory, is how not to bring peace.

[xul]

I will go to my bookstore to find CDs from China Radio International (CRI), in the hope of learning the great vision and policies that China has for the Mideast. Maybe I can learn more about the great oil adventures in Darfur Sudan as well. VOA has much to learn from CRI...I guess?????

I guess our dear communist leader's Mideast Policy is no policy but oil, just like Walmart.

So they seems success at present, just like Walmart.

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess our dear communist leader's Mideast Policy is no policy but oil, just like Walmart.

Yes...that and copying US CDs and DVDs....imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

[Guest American Woman]

xul,

I agree with a lot of what you say. As jbg already pointed out, though, the cultures of the North and South at the time of the Civil war were not very similar. The culture of the North was industrial, while the culture of the South was agricultural. That's why the South had a 'need' for slavery and the North didn't. We did share history, though, and we were one nation that couldn't solve our problems without war, so you do make very good points. You make good points about Iraq, too. Changing regimes and changing cultures are two very different things. And in regards to our taking years before it was 'ok' for blacks and whites to be together so maybe these other nations with a history of problems need more time to solve their problems is likely very true. Everyone isn't on the same time table. Nations throughout the world are at different stages of development, and we have to understand that.

On a personal note: I've been to Beijing on more than one occassion and I love it. There's so much beauty. Good luck with your immigration process. Hope all goes well.

[xul]

The northern and southern state cultures were not and are not all that similar. The fact is that the North won the Civil War and now there is peace. An enforced state of limbo (dictated by the US and the UN), prevent Israel from winning a concluisve victory, is how not to bring peace.

Without those restriction, Israel can win a conclusive military victory. But in political aspect, considering Israeli population less then Arabian, even if Israel defeated all Arabian country and occupied their territory, Israel would still not win.

Just imagine, if population of North was less than South, though North could gain a military victory, but Lincoln could not win. Tht South could still reach their goal by waiting for the next federal election and vote him down.

If Israel occupied all Arabian country, how would Israeli treat those Arabian? If Israel treated them as Israeli citizen just as American treated American Indian as American citizen, they would elect a Arabian president for Israeli. If Israel denied their political rights just as white guys ruled South Aferica, Israeli would be isolated by international community just as South Aferica had ever been.

[jbg]

Just imagine, if population of North was less than South, though North could gain a military victory, but Lincoln could not win. Tht South could still reach their goal by waiting for the next federal election and vote him down.

Basically, over thie, that's what happened. That's why conservative forces normally win US election, in a nutshell.

If Israel occupied all Arabian country, how would Israeli treat those Arabian? If Israel treated them as Israeli citizen just as American treated American Indian as American citizen, they would elect a Arabian president for Israeli. If Israel denied their political rights just as white guys ruled South Aferica, Israeli would be isolated by international community just as South Aferica had ever been.

The Indian Subcontinent, Africa et. al, didn't vote in British elections during the 1800's and first half of the 1900's. If the Israelis won a war, they'd treat the Arabs humanely, but Arabs (other than current Israeli Arabs) wouldn't vote in Israeli elections, absent normal immigration. They don't vote in Arab elections (except in Iraq) now.

[xul]

Yes...that and copying US CDs and DVDs....imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Yes.....and Bush administration's fault is they like more flattery rather than honesty, so they always get such "information" from their "friends" which made them comfortable temporarily but eventually led them to failure.

[cynic43]

Yes.....and Bush administration's fault is they like more flattery rather than honesty, so they always get such "information" from their "friends" which made them comfortable temporarily but eventually led them to failure.

BULLSEYE!!!! well put xul

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes.....and Bush administration's fault is they like more flattery rather than honesty, so they always get such "information" from their "friends" which made them comfortable temporarily but eventually led them to failure.

Honesty is way overrated....China had problems deploying just a few troops to Haiti will Taiwan laughs in their face. How's that for honesty?

[Guest American Woman]

I just got my "bad president" 16 month countdown calendar in the mail. It goes through Inaugaration Day, January 20, 2009. There's a disclaimer on the box, though: "peeking ahead will not speed Bush's departure." If only! I'd sit down and read the whole thing tonight.

Seriously, though, I have the feeling reading this day-by-day calender will be quite an education. I can't believe I didn't know this already, for instance: when Bush was criticizing Kerry for wanting to eliminate tax breaks for the rich, Bush said ""the really rich people figure out how to dodge taxes anyway." I seriously cannot believe the things he has come out with.

Anyway, my calendar starts Sept. 20, so I suppose I'd best not peek ahead, but as of that date: 488 days left!