Apartheid, Women & Arabia

[Oleg Bach]

The above situation in Saudi Arabia should be causing international condonement but with due respect it won't because of Saudi's oil clout on the countries who should be openly condoning what its doing.

That said, I think your take on the feminist movement if you want to call it that is a tad anqtiquated and stereotypical. I think if you actually looked carefully you would see many people in the movement are yegads men and yes straight. You might also find its not all angry women burning bras and male bashing.

You would also find that most if not all the leading women's groups have been condoning and trying to bring international attention to what is going on in many countries to women, I am not sure its as simple as you make it sound. The so called women's movement is far from uniform in thought or approach and no its not simply focused on domestic laws.

That said this is precisely the kind of legal development the West is afraid to speak out about for fear of angering its oil supply.

Interesting how selective we are with the countries we criticize.

You ask where the leftist outrage is? Maybe the left no longer exists - maybe it never did. Do you think that the blue collared NDP was really socially minded and existed to assist society and protect the weak..not so - all traditional leftist in Canada were just poor guys who joined unions and wanted to be the guy living in the big house. It was not a spiritual movement, but to the contrary was a self centered materialism....it was always about the money and never about justice.

[Rue]

now now, all cultures are equal doncha know.

Actually you might have to think about this, the concept of equality, does not suggest things are the same, it suggests we treat people the way we would want them to treat us-its just a variation of the golden rule. For example equal rights when referred to men and women does not mean to define them as the same, just receive the same treatment under the law.

When good bleeding heart liberals such as me talk of equality we do not for one second intend to mean or suggest Sharia Law is equal to Western law. What we are saying is if a Muslim is a Canadian citizen, he or she should be treated no differently then any other Canadian citizen.

The fact that I disagree with the Wahabi Islam sect's version of Islam now prevalent in Saudi Arabia does not mean I have to hate all Muslims. Many Muslims like me, condone this kind of law or interpretation of Islam. Hopefully they can grow and get to the point where they can challenge this extremist fundamentalism just as we have and try do so in Christian, Jewish or other societites influenced by certain religion.

To me this is an issue of males using fundamentalist concepts to impose their values on men and women unequally in the name of Islam. All religions have men that do this.

Its precisely why I reject the orthodox or ultra-porthodox sects in my religion.

[Rue]

You ask where the leftist outrage is? Maybe the left no longer exists - maybe it never did. Do you think that the blue collared NDP was really socially minded and existed to assist society and protect the weak..not so - all traditional leftist in Canada were just poor guys who joined unions and wanted to be the guy living in the big house. It was not a spiritual movement, but to the contrary was a self centered materialism....it was always about the money and never about justice.

I personally agree with you, especially the comments on materialism and spirituality. Its a basic point whether one is conservative or liberal (i.e., burke, bentham, not the other stuff) we can most certainly agree. I think you are dead on. Then again I hate all political ideologies and religions. Never met one I really liked, well except Groucho Marxism.

Edited November 18, 2007 by Rue

[Oleg Bach]

I personally agree with you, especially the comments on materialism and spirituality. Its a basic point whether one is conservative or liberal (i.e., burke, bentham, not the other stuff) we can most certainly agree. I think you are dead on. Then again I hate all political ideologies and religions. Never met one I really liked, well except Groucho Marxism.

I twitched when I scanned the word Marxism - then laughed at the Groucho attatchment. I am very similar to you in my perception and hard earned awareness...have no use for religion and politics - because both are human constructs of control..yet I do adore nature - and love the idea of God that I have simplified as I matured - to being goodness and the respect of realty which is truth. I used to like checking out the history of words...found it interesting that the original spelling of good was with one O - god...that sort of set me on the right track...goodness..the rest is dellusionary.

[capricorn]

The above situation in Saudi Arabia should be causing international condonement but with due respect it won't because of Saudi's oil clout on the countries who should be openly condoning what its doing.

True, and sad. I wonder whether other Islamic countries look to Saudi Arabia for guidance in how women should be treated. Are they looking there and saying "that is how Saudi Arabia acts, so shall we"? How much influence does Saudi Arabia have in influencing other like minded states.

That said, I think your take on the feminist movement if you want to call it that is a tad anqtiquated and stereotypical.

I'm certainly not an expert on feminism or the feminist movement nor am I inclined to be. I think though, that my view of the movement is probably typical.

The so called women's movement is far from uniform in thought or approach and no its not simply focused on domestic laws.

Agreed. The feminist movement has splintered. One group that has gained prominence is Real Women and IMO it is the antithesis of feminism yet it is a women's movement nonetheless.

That said this is precisely the kind of legal development the West is afraid to speak out about for fear of angering its oil supply.

Interesting how selective we are with the countries we criticize.

Also at play is the notion of "picking your battles" and this is one battle that does not appear to have many proponents.

[Moxie]

Hey Moxie, I wonder what the Islamic clerics will think of this.

Menstrual blood could be a good source of stem cells

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...1115?hub=Health

LOL they'd run to google type sex with god knows what and play pocket poker is my guess. That video was awsome. I love the way the Moderate Muslim gave the radical his views of how medievil Islam has become in Islamic Countrys. The frothing at the mouth Radical could use a dentist, but I suppose that's not the Wahhabi Way.

Rue I concur, Wahhabi Islam is the target of my anger. There are many Muslims that only want to live their life in peace and confort. I bear them no ill will, it's the man made version of Islam that suffers my wrath. They seem to hate women, and it's growing in my country and the US daily funded by Saudi Arabia. It sickens me, our goverments haven't the guts to deal with this issue so they remain mute or tell us "Freedom of Religon is a right". Freedom to enslave females under the guise of Religion is just another Cult, maybe we need Cult Laws in Canada. Number one on the list: Bountyful, number two Wahhabi Islam, number three Fundie Baptist etc chain me to a stove you'll have a four alarm fire.

[Rue]

I twitched when I scanned the word Marxism - then laughed at the Groucho attatchment. I am very similar to you in my perception and hard earned awareness...have no use for religion and politics - because both are human constructs of control..yet I do adore nature - and love the idea of God that I have simplified as I matured - to being goodness and the respect of realty which is truth. I used to like checking out the history of words...found it interesting that the original spelling of good was with one O - god...that sort of set me on the right track...goodness..the rest is dellusionary.

Amen. Er you know what I mean.

[Rue]

Moxie in response to your words;

"Rue I concur, Wahhabi Islam is the target of my anger."

From reading your past words and these, I had no doubt of that. I of course concur with all your comments. This fundamentalist crap is a dead weight on humanity. Man if we could only make them put more fibre in their diet and let it pass through them.

[myata]

Really. So easy to get upset about other peoples's beliefs and traditions. Why wouldn't they be just like ... me?

[August1991]

Now if you wonder why more western governments don't step up, there's an easy answer there.

Yet South Africa has an abundance of gold and diamonds as well as other materials. These were not enough to protect it from sanctions.

In any case, I'm speaking about the Left's apparent silence about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia compared to its loud protests about blacks in apartheid South Africa. I agree however that the two situations are far from being comparable.

I spent my days in Saudi Arabia struggling unhappily between a lifetime of being taught to respect foreign cultures and the realization that this culture judged me a lesser being. I tried to draw parallels: If I went to South Africa during apartheid, would I feel compelled to be polite?

I would find that I still saw scraps of Saudi Arabia everywhere I went. Back home in Cairo, the usual cacophony of whistles and lewd coos on the streets sent me into blind rage. I slammed doors in the faces of deliverymen; cursed at Egyptian soldiers in a language they didn't speak; kept a resentful mental tally of the Western men, especially fellow reporters, who seemed to condone, even relish, the relegation of women in the Arab world.

...

As I roamed in and out of Saudi Arabia, the abaya, or Islamic robe, eventually became the symbol of those shifting rules.

I always delayed until the last minute. When I felt the plane dip low over Riyadh, I'd reach furtively into my computer bag to fish out the black robe and scarf crumpled inside. I'd slip my arms into the sleeves without standing up. If I caught the eyes of any male passengers as my fingers fumbled with the snaps, I'd glare. Was I imagining the smug looks on their faces?

The sleeves, the length of it, always felt foreign, at first. But it never took long to work its alchemy, to plant the insecurity. After a day or two, the notion of appearing without the robe felt shocking. Stripped of the layers of curve-smothering cloth, my ordinary clothes suddenly felt revealing, even garish. To me, the abaya implied that a woman's body is a distraction and an interruption, a thing that must be hidden from view lest it haul the society into vice and disarray. The simple act of wearing the robe implanted that self-consciousness by osmosis.

In the depths of the robe, my posture suffered. I'd draw myself in and bumble along like those adolescent girls who seem to think they can roll their breasts back into their bodies if they curve their spines far enough. That was why, it hit me one day, I always seemed to come back from Saudi Arabia with a backache.

The kingdom made me slouch.

Los Angeles Times

[Moxie]

August wrote:In any case, I'm speaking about the Left's apparent silence about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia compared to its loud protests about blacks in apartheid South Africa. I agree however that the two situations are far from being comparable.

The left don't care about women outside of Canada, the feminist are more concerned with doing studies on the "Glass Ceiling" and other hard hitting issues like funding Studies on Women and how "Natural disasters effect us". SOW serves no useful purpose outside of doing stupid studies on stupid issues. The average female loaths feminist, they are useless political mewlers.

[Canadian Blue]

In any case, I'm speaking about the Left's apparent silence about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia compared to its loud protests about blacks in apartheid South Africa. I agree however that the two situations are far from being comparable.

I agree with you to a point, but the fact that conservative presidents have continuously ignored the plight of women in Saudi Arabia can't be ignored.