The American Millennium

[CLRV]

Whoops, there it is...

[bush_cheney2004]

No, this is just more of the same sychophantic, jingoistic pro-America cheerleading.

The only thing for the sychophants to do now is declare victory and move on.

We already have....examine the tools with which you have made such statements, including operating system, middleware, and network....even if parts were made in China, they were not engineered there. The collective "we" taught them how to make the parts, hence the reason for my trip to Shanghai.

Still, gunpowder was a nice contribution to the human condition.

[CLRV]

Well, now that the Imperial WE has taught the inferior little men all our precious secrets; all the knowledge we superior white folks have invented with our mighty minds, what's to stop the inscrutable little men from now using this knowledge to outdistance us with a larger workforce; a stronger work ethic and a ghastly attitude towards environmental protection? We're not talking mars missions. We're talking economics here, since that is what empires are made of nowadays.

Besides, your blank assertion that we invent and they copy is wrong. Any quick search can come up with Chinese R&D making a significant contribution to western innovation. Yes, yes, it's a western company. If IBM pulled out of China tomorrow, do you think the Chinese would just FORGET what they now know?

Your argument is "the Chinese don't know A because I taught it to them years ago" and you completely fail to see the self-defeat in it.

Edited August 25, 2007 by CLRV

[bush_cheney2004]

Besides, your blank assertion that we invent and they copy is wrong. Any quick search can come up with Chinese R&D making a significant contribution to western innovation. Yes, yes, it's a western company. If IBM pulled out of China tomorrow, do you think the Chinese would just FORGET what they now know?

Your argument is "the Chinese don't know A because I taught it to them years ago" and you completely fail to see the self-defeat in it.

Incredible! Thank you for proving my point. You have tried to argue against by pointing out the very substance of my argument.

And only because you have earned this.....RFLMFAO!!!!

Edited August 25, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, now that the Imperial WE has taught the inferior little men all our precious secrets; all the knowledge we superior white folks have invented with our mighty minds, what's to stop the inscrutable little men from now using this knowledge to outdistance us with a larger workforce; a stronger work ethic and a ghastly attitude towards environmental protection? We're not talking mars missions. We're talking economics here, since that is what empires are made of nowadays.

The collective "we" are not only "white folks"...Americans (and Canadians) come from all around the world, including China. Empires come and go...you are living in a fallen empire. Is that a bad thing?

[Drea]

Grasshopper always becomes "better" than his sensai.

The new always beat out the old and America's gotten old. China is brand new, fresh and eager. The US is old, tired and mean spirited.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Drea

[bush_cheney2004]

Grasshoppa always beats out his sensai eventually

Do you mean "sensei"? That would be Japanese, but they learned the hard way. Oh well.....

Edited August 25, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Drea]

Ah you mention that I got sensai wrong - but you certainly cannot refute the rest of my post can you?

[bush_cheney2004]

Ah you mention that I got sensai wrong - but you certainly cannot refute the rest of my post can you?

Yea...I think I did. See history of Japan...or China for that matter. If you mean David Carradine in Kung Fu, that too was an American production. But don't let me keep you from holding your breath waiting for America's demise.

[Drea]

You are lacking in reading skills so I will repeat it for you --> America is old, tired, miserable and facing it's mortality; China is the new, the fresh face. Eager to take on the world (not militarily, economically).

Have you ever seen the difference between a Chinese teenager and a American teenager? The Chinese teenager gets A's in calculus and is proud of it. The American teenager can't even pull his pants all the way up doesn't even know what calculus is. I'd be willing to bet that a Chinese elementary school student is more learned than a highschool graduate in today's America.

Whether or not Japan has sensei joes makes no difference to the debate. You go on ahead and keep bringing it up if it makes you feel better about yourself

Whether of not I misspelled sensei makes no difference to the debate. You go on ahead and keep bringing it up if it makes you feel better about yourself (you need all the self esteem you can get!)

And because you have trouble with these things... how 'bout this? "A student always overtakes his teacher". Get it?

Actually I was thinking of Sensei Lee, a woman I know at a martial arts school. She is now better than her teacher. But I know that went sailing waaaaaay over your head. It's ok you're excused. With that American grade school education it must be difficult for you to understand many things.

Edited August 25, 2007 by Drea

[Guest American Woman]

Grasshopper always becomes "better" than his sensai.

The new always beat out the old and America's gotten old. China is brand new, fresh and eager. The US is old, tired and mean spirited.

Yep. That's us. Old, tired, and mean spirited-- as opposed to China's government; because of course when people think of China's government, they think fresh, eager, and kind spirited.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are lacking in reading skills so I will repeat it for you --> America is old, tired, miserable and facing it's mortality; China is the new, the fresh face. Eager to take on the world (not militarily doughead, economically).

Have you ever seen the difference between a Chinese teenager and a American teenager? The Chinese teenager gets A's in calculus and is proud of it. The American teenager can't even pull his pants all the way up doesn't even know what calculus is. I'd be willing to bet that a Chinese elementary school student is more learned than a highschool graduate in today's America.

Whether or not Japan has sensai joes makes no difference to the debate. You go on ahead and keep bringing it up if it makes you feel better about yourself

Hmmmm...lots of stereotypes and generalization here:

1) Japan and China are both much older than the United States. Had they already failed?

2) Many Chinese teenagers emulate American pop culture. BTW, it is called The Calculus by those who know what they are talking about. Many Chinese elementary school age children have never seen a school.

3) You brought up "sensai"...not me...tough noogies.

4) I always feel better no matter what.

[Drea]

Yep. That's us. Old, tired, and mean spirited-- as opposed to China's government; because of course when people think of China's government, they think fresh, eager, and kind spirited.

I was not talking about the government...

Sorry American Woman. You seem like a levelheaded individual without the level of arrogance of some Americans. Those arrogant ones need to be taken down a peg or two as they are the people that the rest of the world imagines ALL Americans are like. He (and people like him) are part of the reason America is so disliked across the world.

I go to the democratic underground and read what those people have to say. They are nothing, I repeat NOTHING like B-C 2004 here. They know that their country has some serious issues regarding human rights, education, healthcare, warmongering, etc.

I know not all of you are like B-C 2004 but his "type" has the loudest voice and therefore gets noticed more often.

My apologies to you and all those like you.

[bush_cheney2004]

I was not talking about the government...

Sorry American Woman. You seem like a levelheaded individual without the level of arrogance of some Americans. Those arrogant ones need to be taken down a peg or two as they are the people that the rest of the world imagines ALL Americans are like. He (and people like him) are part of the reason America is so disliked across the world.

I go to the democratic underground and read what those people have to say. They are nothing, I repeat NOTHING like B-C 2004 here. They know that their country has some serious issues regarding human rights, education, healthcare, warmongering, etc.

I know not all of you are like B-C 2004 but his "type" has the loudest voice and therefore gets noticed more often.

My apologies to you and all those like you.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. I am one of about 300,000,000 Americans...we come from all over the world. In the end, it will be this diversity of human resources and political stances that will see us through, just as it always has. More Chinese immigrants arrive in America each day.

The "Democratic Underground" is an American site? Nuff said on that!

Thanks for the hugs and kisses....I am good for ratings too!

[CLRV]

A country of a thousand warchariots cannot be administered unless the ruler attends strictly to business, punctually observes his promises, is economical in expenditure, shows affection towards his subjects in general, and uses the labour of the peasantry only at the proper times of year. -- THE ANALECTS - Confucious

The Chinese knew centuries ago what George W. Bush and his supporters don't know today. I think the Chinese just might be capable of muddling through somehow, with our without the generous teachings of internet chat hall denizens...

[bush_cheney2004]

Yep. That's us. Old, tired, and mean spirited-- as opposed to China's government; because of course when people think of China's government, they think fresh, eager, and kind spirited.

Too funny....their favorite heavyweight "contender" embodies all the things they revile.

Your petty insults notwithstanding, I wish there were more Americans to help carry the weight around here, with far more diverse points of view. JBG does his part, but we need more since so many of MLW's allegedly "Canadian Politics" threads always turn in American bashfests.

[August1991]

I think that many posters have misunderstood the meaning of my OP. I meant that this next millenium may well, with luck, prove to be the American Millenium because the next thousand years, with luck, will see American ideals of individual freedom spread to all societies. Individuals will be free to choose.

I think you might want to prepare yourselves for the unpleasant reality that the sun is setting on the American Empire, such as it has been. Sad but true.

The American Empire?

America is not an Empire. It doesn't exact tribute from protectorates or colonies. It doesn't impose governors or overseers in foreign territories. Canada, for example, over the past 40 years has undergone a heartfelt and serious debate about breaking up the country and the US government has largely remained uninvolved.

Individualism? The idea that America (or any country) values individuality as the highest ideal is a cheap myth. Everybody's and individualIST, but they don't like individuals. Perhaps in simpler times it was true, but no modern industrial culture can really afford a population of unpredictables. This is the result of expressing individuality in America today. Try to wear an anti-Bush tshirt within a mile of one of his appearances and you'll see just how much your individuality is cherished.

It's not a cheap myth and in fact, contrary to your opinion, a modern economy depends essentially on individuals choosing what is best for themselves. And BTW, I stood outside of the White House this past summer and there's a guy within a 200 feet of the Oval Office who had a sign describing Bush as the "World's #1 Terrorist".

In any case, what you can wear on a T-shirt is not the best way to measure the freedom to choose. And Bush will be gone in just over a year anyway. (If America is an Empire, then it's a strange one where the Emperor voluntarily gives up power. Castro, for example, only trusted his brother temporarily.)

Of course it needn't have been so, but sadly the 1990's happened and the Peace Dividend was squandered. America had won the Cold War; had proven their economic system better than the Russians' once and for all. The Gulf War proved What We Say Goes. What did America do with its place as the sole remaining superpower? America turned inward. They rode out the glorious economic boom convinced of the myth of Infinite Growth. They watched Survivor and Seinfeld. Drunk on cheap gasoline, America's love affair with the S.U.V. had its honeymoon.

Seinfeld? What's that and who cares.

CLRV, I suspect that you have an independent viewpoint and are not shy to argue with others. This freedom to disagree is probably something you cherish. Have you ever lived in a society where that freedom doesn't exist? Have you ever censored your words because you felt that those around you would not agree?

The US is a place where if you are gay, you can go to San Francisco, Provincetown or Key West. If you're left wing, you can move to Boston or Tribeca. If you're Christian, you can move to Utah. If you're a military gun nut with a monster truck, you can move to Raleigh. If you just want to be middle class, you can get a house in the suburbs.

When 300 million people are free to do their own thing, the result is a society like America. Such a society is willing to take risks, try new ideas and what works best will eventually come to the top.

We in Canada (and people around the world) benefit from this American freedom to try.

While the U.S is absolutely unrivaled in terms of tertiary education, the recent trends which are focusing less on math and sciences and more in the ways of obscure theistic concepts (and considering the primary and secondary systems were never that great to begin with) are hardly enviable.

I meant that US public education exists, functions and is largely an affair of the local community paid through property and other local taxes. No society in history has devoted so many resources in such a way to ensure that everyone in each generation receives the accumulated knowledge from the past.

In the past, education was largely a family affair and it still largely is. The few attempts to let government organize education are recent and either have been failures or don't augur well for the future. The American system of letting small, local governments organize public education is the most likely to succeed in the long run.

I wouldn't look at international comparisons of standardized tests. IME, the hallmark of a North American education is the ability to think critically and independently. There is much evidence of that on this forum, from such posters as CLVR for example.

Edited August 25, 2007 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

The Chinese knew centuries ago what George W. Bush and his supporters don't know today. I think the Chinese just might be capable of muddling through somehow, with our without the generous teachings of internet chat hall denizens...

Didn't seem to help them much in Manchuria.

Hmmm, since we are digressing, wasn't it Clinton and Chretien who bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade? Ooops!

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't look at international comparisons of standardized tests. IME, the hallmark of a North American education is the ability to think critically and independently. There is much evidence of that on this forum, from such posters as CLVR for example.

Agreed...from an earlier link:

The returned Chinese students that I meet all agree that their greatest challenge was the transition to a classroom where students ask questions, reply to questions, and state and defend points of view. Students challenge and defend one another’s papers in graduate seminars. Later, their research and papers must go through peer review. The returned students are all unanimous in saying that -- after the initial classroom shock -- learning these creative thinking and presentation skills was the greatest reward of their time of study in the United States.

[CLRV]

America is not an Empire. It doesn't exact tribute from protectorates or colonies.

I guess the concepts of neocolonialism and economic imperialism haven't filtered down to you yet? As I said, empires are run through economics now.

It doesn't impose governors or overseers in foreign territories.

I guess you haven't been paying attention to events in Iraq and Afghanistan either. Both governments installed by Uncle Sam.

It's not a cheap myth and in fact, contrary to your opinion, a modern economy depends essentially on individuals choosing what is best for themselves.

No. A modern economy depends on a whole bunch of consumers buying a whole bunch of the same things. In other words, it demands conformity. New ideas that upset the apple cart of established business concerns are not welcome -- witness the resistance to alternative fuel technology for but one example.

In any case, what you can wear on a T-shirt is not the best way to measure the freedom to choose.

It's as good as any, particularly since I placed the comment next to a link about Gitmo on the Hudson, where American citizens were rounded up and incarcerated for no reason while the Republican convention went quietly forward in front of the cameras.

The US is a place where if you are gay, you can go to San Francisco, Provincetown or Key West. If you're left wing, you can move to Boston or Tribeca. If you're Christian, you can move to Utah. If you're a military gun nut with a monster truck, you can move to Raleigh. If you just want to be middle class, you can get a house in the suburbs.

It's also a place where if you're gay, you can't get married or receive spousal benefits. If you're left wing, you're ignored. If you're Christian, you work to merge church and state. If you're a military gun nut with a mountain bike, you are appointed president. If you want to be middle class, good freakin' luck.

When 300 million people are free to do their own thing, the result is a society like America. Such a society is willing to take risks, try new ideas and what works best will eventually come to the top.

We in Canada (and people around the world) benefit from this American freedom to try.

We in Canada made our own reality, thank you very much. Perhaps you want to discount our efforts and leave it all to your heroes to the south, but I know better.

I meant that US public education exists, functions and is largely an affair of the local community paid through property and other local taxes. No society in history has devoted so many resources in such a way to ensure that everyone in each generation receives the accumulated knowledge from the past.

In the past, education was largely a family affair and it still largely is. The few attempts to let government organize education are recent and either have been failures or don't augur well for the future. The American system of letting small, local governments organize public education is the most likely to succeed in the long run.

Amazing. Public education: it's bad when Canada does it, but great when the US does it.

I must point out that letting local government run schools means kids in rich areas get good schools and kids in poor areas get zilch.

I wouldn't look at international comparisons of standardized tests.

Of course you wouldn't, because they belie everything you say.

IME, the hallmark of a North American education is the ability to think critically and independently.

Save the best joke for last, I always say. Critically and independantly? North Americans have no such skills. Most people pay to know what they really think. They read the op-eds and they parrot talking points. The Iraq war never would have happened if the American public was thinking critically and independantly at the time.

[Guest American Woman]

Sorry American Woman. You seem like a levelheaded individual without the level of arrogance of some Americans. Those arrogant ones need to be taken down a peg or two as they are the people that the rest of the world imagines ALL Americans are like. He (and people like him) are part of the reason America is so disliked across the world.

I go to the democratic underground and read what those people have to say. They are nothing, I repeat NOTHING like B-C 2004 here. They know that their country has some serious issues regarding human rights, education, healthcare, warmongering, etc.

I know not all of you are like B-C 2004 but his "type" has the loudest voice and therefore gets noticed more often.

My apologies to you and all those like you.

America isn't disliked across the world. I'll quote my Chinese friend after he fulfilled his dream of visiting the U.S. last summer:

"I understand much better why people from all of the world love to go to America. It's a very well organized country with diversity of cultures and real democracy and freedom. It may take few years for new immigrants to get used to the American life, once you know the rules and custorms ,working hard, good brains and ideas, you may reach success. What your country has ,the most important value that others may not have, is the equalty of opportunities. I wish China can catch up with it in the near future, i hope i live long to see the day. America is very advanced. I suppose China needs at least 50 --100 years to catch up with it."

Here's the thing. You say you go to the Democratic Underground where the people are "nothing, I repeat NOTHING" like bush_cheney2004, yet you made the statement that Americans are "old, tired, and mean spirited." In reality, a statement like that makes you the mean spirited one.

[bush_cheney2004]

The Iraq war never would have happened if the American public was thinking critically and independantly at the time.

Nonsense...millions of Americans protested the invasion of Iraq...but they were not President of the United States or Congress...but they did elect them. See "constitutional republic".

[CLRV]

they were not President of the United States or Congress...but they did elect them.

Which they never would have done if they were thinking critically and independantly.

The opinion polls of the time tell the story.

Edited August 25, 2007 by CLRV

[bush_cheney2004]

Which they never would have done if they were thinking critically and independantly.

Some do...some don't...it's their constitutional right. Some don't vote at all. They sure as hell don't care what you think about their choices, but carry on anyway.

[Guest American Woman]

Which they never would have done if they were thinking critically and independantly.

The opinion polls of the time tell the story.

Well, he wasn't exactly elected before he started the war in Iraq. Remember, Gore got the popular vote.

As for the opinion polls, many Americans' thinking was colored by fear-- and Bush et al played on that fear. Had it not been for 9-11, of course things would have been different in Americans' eyes. Of course there would have been those who supported Bush/war no matter what, but the fear following 9-11 definitely was a factor. It's scary to wake up and find your country under attack.