July figures for Palestinian Casualites by IDF

[buffycat]

Report: Thirty-four Palestinians, including two children, killed by Israeli army fire in July

The report stated that 34 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army during the month, among them two children. Five of the thirty-four were victims of extra-judicial assassination, while another two died when the ambulances transporting them to the hospital were detained at military checkpoints. In addition to the 34 killed, 85 civilians were injured in different Israeli military attacks.

The PLO also reported that six homes were destroyed by the Israeli army. Three of the homes were in east Jerusalem, which the army claimed were built without the necessary permits. The other three were destroyed during military operations in the West Bank and Gaza strip.

The Israeli army kidnapped 220 Palestinian civilians during the month of July, while Israeli settlers set fire to 250 dunums of agricultural land, causing the destruction of 2250 olive trees. Settlers also took over thirty dunums of agricultural land belonging to Palestinian farmers from villages near Hebron in the southern West Bank.

The report stated that the Israeli army continued to invade, kill and kidnap throughout the month, targeting all sectors of Palestinian society, especially children. In one such incident, Israeli soldiers killed Ahmed Skafy, 15, while he was playing in front of his home with a plastic toy gun.

***

Other figures can also be found at:

B'TSelem

This should really make one wonder about WHO is really wiping WHO off the map.

I would also like to bring up the stranded Palestinians at the Rafah Crossing - 6,000 of them - many sick/elderly - in the sun - no shelter and not being allowed back into Israel.

I would also like to mention that hospital and drug supplies are being choked off from Gaza.

This has all the earmarks of a total siege and absolute humanitarian disaster. All because the Palestinians voted democratically for (according the Israel and the US) the wrong party. Talk about Chutzpah! Please keep in mind that it was Hamas who held to a ceasefire for over six months - all the while the IDF sonic boomed daily and nightly, launched incursions, extrajudicial assassinations and the usual checkpoint hassles (often leading to the loss of life of some innocent person).

Take some time and explore B'Tselem, great site, great folks - these people are truly trying to work for peace.

[Bonam]

I would also like to bring up the stranded Palestinians at the Rafah Crossing - 6,000 of them - many sick/elderly - in the sun - no shelter and not being allowed back into Israel.

You make that sound as if it was Israel's fault. Those Palestinians are stranded there because of the Hamas-Fatah fighting.

Please keep in mind that it was Hamas who held to a ceasefire for over six months

Yeah, nice ceasefire, with a bunch of smaller terrorist groups launching rockets from Gaza non stop the whole time.

The report stated that 34 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army during the month, among them two children.

A light toll for a anti-terrorism campaign, relatively speaking. Compare that to the death rates in Iraq, or in Afghanistan.

The report stated that the Israeli army continued to invade, kill and kidnap throughout the month, targeting all sectors of Palestinian society, especially children.

That sentence right there, with its ridiculousness, puts the lie to the whole thing.

[M.Dancer]

Worthless thread.

[buffycat]

Worthless thread.

Worthless post.

Though I sure don't expect much more than this from you.

I guess you don't think that these sorts of actions have anything to do with why some folks in Palestine (The Occupied Territories) might just be a little leary of any kind of 'peace' the Israelis may offer?

Peace = Dead or gone.

[B. Max]

I guess you don't think that these sorts of actions have anything to do with why some folks in Palestine (The Occupied Territories) might just be a little leary of any kind of 'peace' the Israelis may offer?

Peace = Dead or gone.

If I we're running Israel I would make it very clear that for every attack on Israel, we will take a mile of your territory, move you out and you will never get it back.

[White Doors]

Worthless thread.

Worthless post.

Though I sure don't expect much more than this from you.

I guess you don't think that these sorts of actions have anything to do with why some folks in Palestine (The Occupied Territories) might just be a little leary of any kind of 'peace' the Israelis may offer?

Peace = Dead or gone.

You seriously think that Israel deliberately targets children?

You ever hear of the expression, useful idiots?

[kuzadd]

Yah, cause targeting children is never done in warfare, (facetious sarcasm)

It is a tactic of demoralization.

[Higgly]

Thank you. This is the reality of the occupation. Another make-word like "settlement". This is what occupation really means on the ground level. I recall walking through the Arab quarter with a Palestinian friend when a platoon of Israeli soldiers came walking in the other direction. Immature pimple faced boys with automatic weapons and efficient communication devices. My companion pulled in close to me and started trembling. I asked her, "---, what is wrong?". "They can kill us and they don't even have to tell anyone.", she said.

There is a passage from one of Robert Fisk's books. He is on the Israeli side of a stone throwing incident and he is interviewing an American Jew who is is serving in the IDF. Every once in a while, the IDF soldier pops up and knocks off a Palestinian stone throwing boy with his automatic rifle. "This is fun" he quotes the IDF soldier as saying.

This is the "occupation".

Edited August 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Bonam]

Nevermind, thought you were writing of your own experiences, prior to your edit.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Bonam

[buffycat]

Thank you. This is the reality of the occupation. Another make-word like "settlement". This is what occupation really means on the ground level. I recall walking through the Arab quarter with a Palestinian friend when a platoon of Israeli soldiers came walking in the other direction. Immature pimple faced boys with automatic weapons and efficient communication devices. My companion pulled in close to me and started trembling. I asked her, "---, what is wrong?". "They can kill us and they don't even have to tell anyone.", she said.

There is a passage from one of Robert Fisk's books. He is on the Israeli side of a stone throwing incident and he is interviewing an American Jew who is is serving in the IDF. Every once in a while, the IDF soldier pops up and knocks off a Palestinian stone throwing boy with his automatic rifle. "This is fun" he quotes the IDF soldier as saying.

This is the "occupation".

You are welcome.

As far as others here, I am not surprised that they may really believe that the stats involved are actually the other way around. Our media is VERY Israel centric. Very rarely (if ever) are these incidents and death tolls (including woundings) ever even mentioned. It's like all this violence on the side of the Palestinians happens in a vacuum, Israelis being the only victims acknowledged in the NA press.

For those who are in disbelief, I truly invite them to look into the reports offered by B'TSelem, for instance here is the fatality page:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Just thought I would edit in this link as well - it's a little more detailed for the last week:

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900s...2S?OpenDocument

Edited August 2, 2007 by buffycat

[buffycat]

I would also like to bring up the stranded Palestinians at the Rafah Crossing - 6,000 of them - many sick/elderly - in the sun - no shelter and not being allowed back into Israel.

You make that sound as if it was Israel's fault. Those Palestinians are stranded there because of the Hamas-Fatah fighting.

Ummm, Israel controls ALL the borders in the Occupied Territories - both the West Bank and Gaza. The PA has NO autonomy. So - yeah in this case it is Israel's fault.

Yeah, nice ceasefire, with a bunch of smaller terrorist groups launching rockets from Gaza non stop the whole time.

Cite reference for this?

Even if some radical factions not associated with Hamas did continue (note NO deaths of Israelis involved) how does that relate to Hamas? It doesn't. Hamas held to the ceasefire - Israel did not - it's plain and simply a fact. Not much different than the ceasefire's terms which Israel is still violating wrt Lebanon.

[Higgly]

Our media is VERY Israel centric.

No, very Likud centric. I am always amazed when that jackass Netenyahu is repeatedly given time to show his pastey face on CNN , the CBC, what have you. There are people in Israel and in the Canadian Jewish community who know what's what. I recall seeing coverage of a pro-Israel march in Toronto (always seems to happen whenever Israel is just about to ramp up the murder machine). There were some Jewish protesters who were holding up "End the occupation" signs. They were being abused in the worst way and people were shouting at them "Shame! There are Holocaust survivors here!" These people have no shame and neither should we.

[buffycat]

Yes, you are correct - Likud centric. Pardon me, it is hard sometimes to think of the Israeli Admin as anything but Likud lately. Labour seems non existant and sadly the more moderate Israeli voices are given next to NO airtime.

I have friends there, and many feel the same way and it seems both you and I do feel. I think it is of utmost importance that people realize that there is a difference between the Israeli Administration and her people, as well as the fact that not all Jews support the Occupation or the decisions of those who rule Israel these days.

Thanks Higgly.

[B. Max]

This is the "occupation".

That's the biggest lie of all. The truth is something different. The fact is there never was a Palestinian people or a Palestinian state. The majority of them are people kicked out of Jordan for causing trouble there who actually occupied Jewish land.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

[Higgly]

Nevermind, thought you were writing of your own experiences, prior to your edit.

I am. I took my friend's name out and replaced it with dashes. Why would I give such a private thing to someone like you? Toze, Bonam. Toze.

[Higgly]

That's the biggest lie of all. The truth is something different. The fact is there never was a Palestinian people or a Palestinian state. The majority of them are people kicked out of Jordan for causing trouble there who actually occupied Jewish land.

Are we really back to this pathetic excuse for a response? This would be like Hitler who, having wiped the Jews off the map, says "There never was a people called the Jews.".

Like I said, these people have no shame.

[buffycat]

Indeed no shame:

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."

-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

********

Again, I will stress not all Jews feel this way.

[B. Max]

That's the biggest lie of all. The truth is something different. The fact is there never was a Palestinian people or a Palestinian state. The majority of them are people kicked out of Jordan for causing trouble there who actually occupied Jewish land.

Are we really back to this pathetic excuse for a response? This would be like Hitler who, having wiped the Jews off the map, says "There never was a people called the Jews.".

Like I said, these people have no shame.

Those are the facts of recorded history. Whether you like it or not.

[Bonam]

Ummm, Israel controls ALL the borders in the Occupied Territories - both the West Bank and Gaza.

All the borders? How about the one between Gaza and Egypt? Back to the Rafah crossing, why are there 6000 Palestinians "stranded" there? They're stranded there because they want to get out of Hamastan, where they are no longer welcome, due to Palestinian infighting.

Cite reference for this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-G...flict#Ceasefire

Feel free to follow further links to the references within that section if you don't like wikipedia as a citation.

Even if some radical factions not associated with Hamas did continue (note NO deaths of Israelis involved) how does that relate to Hamas?

Hamas is the dominant authority in the region. As the government, if it says it offers a ceasefire, than that means not only on behalf of itself (the government), but of all military organisations over which it has jurisdiction.

If the government of Israel offered a ceasefire, but the IDF (a military group associated with Israel) kept attacking anyway, would you accept that as a valid ceasefire? I'd bet no. Why then is your answer different for Gaza. If it's government offers a ceasefire, but a military group within it keeps lobbing rockets, then obviously the ceasefire is not being adhered to.

Unfortunately, that's exactly the problem. The Palestinian governments simply can't control the militant groups under their jurisdictions. Whether Abbas, or Ishmael (or whatever that Hamas guy's name is), or anyone else wants to make a ceasefire or a peace with Israel, the rockets will keep landing on Israel anyway, from terrorists that these governments cannot control. And that's precisely why Israel carries out strikes and incursions against these areas - to do the work that the Palestinians themselves should be doing, keeping militants that are acting against the word of their governments in check.

If the Palestinian governments could properly assert their authority within their own supposed territories and actually prevent terrorist activity in Israel when they declare a "ceasefire", then Israel wouldn't need to keep carrying out strikes against these terrorists, and some kind of progress towards peace might actually happen.

[Higgly]

I have friends there, and many feel the same way and it seems both you and I do feel.

Yes there are many, but they are afraid of the vicious hate attacks that would be mounted against them if they speak out. I have seen newspaper editors and tv producers - and these are very thick skinned guys - who have said that they are reluctant to publish pieces because of the vicious hatemail campaigns they would be subjected to.

Jimmy Carter has said that free speech on the Middle East is being supressed and he is right. It is being suppressed.

As I have said before. There is a whole generation of people who are about to retire. They have been in the field, they have seen first hand what is going on in the Middle East. They will no longer be constrained by circumstance. Just wait.

[Higgly]

Hamas is the dominant authority in the region.

It is an elected government body. You can't have it both ways. If you demand democracy, you have to accept the outcome. You don't just sit back like a pretty girl at a sockhop polishing your nails saying "No." to this one and "Yes" to that one.

There has been enough of this. Chile, Iran... You either want democracy or you don't. Suck it up, Bonam.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

Unfortunately, that's exactly the problem. The Palestinian governments simply can't control the militant groups under their jurisdictions.

Control them with what? They can't even collect their own taxes! They can't arm their police forces without Israel's permission. Israel tightens the screws, makes it impossible for them to do anything, and then says, "You see.. they can't do anything." Get a grip on reality Bonam. Israel has total control and everything that happens is a result of Israel's actions.

I have to say that I was delighted that Condi Rice went over there a few days ago and then just got on a plane and went home again. Damned straight Condi. Find a hobby, you useless tool. You never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Higgly

[Bonam]

I am. I took my friend's name out and replaced it with dashes. Why would I give such a private thing to someone like you? Toze, Bonam. Toze

Your friend's name Rulah? Saw it before your first edit actually.

Are we really back to this pathetic excuse for a response?

Historically though, there really wasn't anything like a seperate Palestinian state until after the creation of Israel. The British mandate of Transjordan included the modern day areas of Jordan, Israel and the West Bank. At that point, there was no difference between the Arab inhabitants of the land now known as Jordan, and the Arab inhabitants of the land now known as the West Bank. During the war of independence (1948), Jordanian forces attacked Israel through the West Bank, and after the cessation of the War, the West Bank was Jordanian territory, and its people considered Jordanians.

It is only after the 1967 war, when Jordan lost the West Bank, and the people (its own former citizens) were refused entry into Jordan (those who got in were massacred by the thousands by their fellow Arabs), that the trapped Jordanian Arabs of the West Bank began to develop their own national identity, which we now call Palestinian.

A very similar story applies to Gaza, except with Egypt instead of Jordan.

The simplest thing would have been if Jordan had allowed the West Bank to rejoin it in the peace treaty after the 1967 war, and for Egypt to take back Gaza. Unfortunately, those countries didn't want those people any more than Israel did. They knew that by leaving those trapped populations in Israeli hands, they could wage a protracted guerilla war against Israel, which would erode away Israeli power and support over the decades. Which is indeed precisely what has been happening.

The simple fact is, the Palestinians exist at all, and suffer as they do, because they were purposefully put in that situation by Jordan and Egypt, to be an eternal problem for Israel.

However, you are right that at this point, 40 years after those events, the Palestinians do exist as a seperate nationality.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Bonam

[Bonam]

It is an elected government body. You can't have it both ways. If you demand democracy, you have to accept the outcome. You don't just sit back like a pretty girl at a sockhop polishing your nails saying "No." to this one and "Yes" to that one.

Yes, Hamas was the elected government. Hamas pledged a ceasefire. Hamas failed to produce that which was promised, as rocket attacks from the territory that they controlled continued. Thus, they were an ineffective government that could not properly assert its sovereignty. As a result, Israel had to do the work of enforcing the ceasefire (shutting down the terrorists that broke it) for them.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Bonam

[Bonam]

Control them with what? They can't even collect their own taxes! They can't arm their police forces without Israel's permission. Israel tightens the screws, makes it impossible for them to do anything, and then says, "You see.. they can't do anything." Get a grip on reality Bonam. Israel has total control and everything that happens is a result of Israel's actions.

Israel has total control? If they had total control, rockets wouldn't be being fired at Israel. Very obviously, whether Israel approves of it or not, Hamas and other organisations in Gaza have plenty of access to armaments.