Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

[jdobbin]

No private pension scheme has the power to change any time it wants contributions, or benefits.

Are you sure about that?

[mikedavid00]

Finally, it is wrong to say that Americans like their health care system. Clinton was elected in part in 1992 on a promise to reform it. Reforming the US health care system is hard to impossible.

What are you talking about? He was not elected in because of any kind of healthcare reform. He tried to push it on to the people and it not only did NOT have support from the people, it did NOT have support from their own party.

There will always be those in the US who want a nanny state. American's in a large part control their own country. Something not very many here no anything about.

They are certainly not going to let their gov't mess up their healthcare system.

Dentist - A Dr. that goes to medical school. 2 tier system - no waits.

Vetranarian - A Dr. that goes to medical school. Fully privatized system - no waits.

Physician/Surgen - A Dr. that goes to medical school. Fully PUBLIC system and completely broken beyond repair.

[mikedavid00]

Facts are, Americans get healthcare and believe it or not actually pay LESS than we do because the majority of them have their employers paying it for them. I however, pay 20% of all my taxes to healtchare which is why my taxes or so high.

Employers do no such thing. Employees pay for it through lower wages.

LOl!!!

Are you suggesting that Canadians get paid more than Americans when fectoring in cost of living and purchasing power??? LOL! Don't even go there. You WILL lose that argument.

[mikedavid00]

Almost nobody pays 45% of their gross income in taxes (the Fraiser institute numbers are a gross exagerration). Most people will pay less than 30%. Furthermore, the taxes in many US states are actually higher that taxes in some Canadian provinces (source National Post article - need find link).

You're wrong.

You haven't researched well enough again. The 45% also includes gas taxes, GST, PST, land taxes and everything else that we *indirectly* pay taxes for. It's not just income tax. All that money goes back into healthcare *or* health servies. Some provinces spend up to 50% of *all* their budget on taxes. eventually The number is actually around %50 but I put it at %45 to even out the 25%.

[August1991]

No private pension scheme has the power to change any time it wants contributions, or benefits.

Are you sure about that?

Well, to my knowledge, no private pension scheme has the power to impose taxes.

Look Dobbin, the government by the simple expedient of raising income taxes can reduce pension payouts - and don't doubt for a second that a future government won't consider that option when the boomers start to retire. For example, why do seniors get a larger personal exemption than others anyway?

And maybe we should take this discussion to another thread.

[jdobbin]

Well, to my knowledge, no private pension scheme has the power to impose taxes.

Look Dobbin, the government by the simple expedient of raising income taxes can reduce pension payouts - and don't doubt for a second that a future government won't consider that option when the boomers start to retire. For example, why do seniors get a larger personal exemption than others anyway?

And maybe we should take this discussion to another thread.

Private pension plans do and can raise rates, reduce payments or sometimes wrap up their plans. More private plans have funding problems than the CPP.

As for your boomers argument, that is the reason the CPP was changed the way it was. It is now meeting the objectives that it needs to make to provide pensions for the next 75 years. I'm not sure what exemption for seniors you are referring to. On their CPP?

I have no problems taking it to another thread. My point in bringing up CPP was that it was a huge issue prior to 1997 and one that required a lot of discussion. It could have been political dynamite but it was handled decently by all parties involved. You seem to think it still an issue but I can find no where in either business or government where it is being talked about in terms of being a problem.

I believe that the healthcare situation will require an equal amount of thought. As you say, it is a far more complicated area of responsibility but it is not beyond the pale in terms of solutions.

[fellowtraveller]

80 years average lifespan in Canada.

77 average in USA.

Essentially the same culture, diet , lifestyle.

Significantly different levels of health care.

No explanation other than ' My cat gets better health care than that, and he also has no insurance.'

Like I said, the classic "I got mine".

What an ugly, selfish point of view.

You can have those extra three years and then some....we're not interested in commie health care. Besides, a lot of that extra "lifespan" is spent consuming American culture..LOL!

Go back to your ignorant racist rants....

Just can't explain that three years extra life, eh?

By the way, you've been wanking on about the medical coverage you get in the military system. Exactly what happens if you have any sort of chronic medical condition as an active duty soldier. Heart or liver disease, diabetes, serious form of cancer.......? You'd be discharged, dumped on the street, and left to go looking for an insurance company that was interested in taking on a person with health problems. Plenty of takers for those cases, right? HMOs just love unemployed, sick people, right?

In Canada, if the military decides you're unfit for service, you're gone - same as the US. But of course, your medical conditions wouldn't matter because a provincial plan would cover you.....

But i digress.

Tell me how the commies in Canada manage to keep their people alive longer with such an inferior system?

[Riverwind]

You haven't researched well enough again. The 45% also includes gas taxes, GST, PST, land taxes and everything else that we *indirectly* pay taxes for.

The number you are using comes from the Fraiser Institute with includes corporate taxes but does not income corporate income. That renders their analysis meaningless. I have done this calculation many times and included everything that anyone could possible conceive as a tax. My results are the same every time: 95%+ of Canadians pay less that 40% of the income tax and anyone earning less than 50K will pay less that 30% of their income.

You would also find that if you do the same calculation in for many states that Americans end up paying as much if not more than Canadians in many provinces.

[guyser]

So no waitings lists nor lists of people dying. Hmmm.

Carry on BS'ing.

[mikedavid00]

You are repeating a myth. Marginal rates are 45%+ in many provinces but that does not mean that people pay anything close to that rate as a percentage of their total income.

I never said it was all direct income tax. I'm also implying indirect tax payments (gas, hydro, CRC charge from your cel phone).

I think it was estimated that Canadians pay 52% of all their money on taxes. I put the figure at 45% becuase the 25% can vary depending on province and such so just kept the numbers safe at 45 and 25 for everyone.

So if you and your spouce make $6000 a month (gross), then you are roughly paying $675 a month for healthcare.

And suprise suprise

"Only seven (7) percent of the unemployed can afford to pay for COBRA health insurance – the continuation of group coverage offered by their former employers. Premiums for this coverage average almost $700 a month for family coverage and $250 for individual coverage"

See you have to thoroughly research and look for the truth. Even when you are laid off you have the option to pay for your healthcare and still get it.

But eh, American's have jobs everywhere, every field, every age group.. white collar and otherwise so there's no excuse for them not to be working. If they still can't find work then they can get on HMO.

Either way, if they are citizens they are being COVERED and will receive excellent treatment.

[guyser]

So if you and your spouce make $6000 a month (gross), then you are roughly paying $675 a month for healthcare.

Care to show us where you thought, I mean got these from? The last time you did this you were shown the correct amounts.

$8200 per year huh..?.....

[mikedavid00]

But i digress.

Tell me how the commies in Canada manage to keep their people alive longer with such an inferior system?

That is an issue of how both countries are gathering stats so is not up for discussion.

We really don't know how we gather our stats as compared to the US. Still births, for instance, can weigh down the statistics.

Also, there are much less crimes involving death per capita here than the US. That alone can weigh down the stats significantly.

And of course, you have elderly people from the 3rd world who typically do not suffer from obesety and suffer from less cancer rates (i *think*. that's not a fact but I remember reading that people of the third world experience less cancer or fetal disease or obesity than our native Canadian population which in turn can drastically change our stats once they're using our medications. Simpler example: the old men from China are everywhere looking to be 95 years old. You don't see to many Canadians that are 95 and out and about.)

Ultimately, if that is the case, it means NOTHING for us Canadians. It's just another effect of immigrants masking our ability to gather statistics effectively.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just can't explain that three years extra life, eh?

Nope...just can't explain why the Japanese system is so much better than Canada's if one uses life expectancy as the yardstick. And guess what..they are not your favorite "whites"...LOL!

[fellowtraveller]

Just can't explain that three years extra life, eh?

Nope...just can't explain why the Japanese system is so much better than Canada's if one uses life expectancy as the yardstick. And guess what..they are not your favorite "whites"...LOL!

Didn't think you'd give up that easy. Just cannot think of any reasons why Canadians live longer, other than it has something vaguely Japanese ?

Average lifespans of scores or hundreds of millions of people are hard to dismess, but you just breeze on by , spouting a load of crap and ignoring facts..... so please don't ask me to take you seriously .

And I don't know what you are on about 'whites', unless you are now also contending that the 40 million people in the US without insurance of any kind, and the scores of millions that are underinsured, are not disproportionately non-Cacausian?

[margrace]

Didn't I read somewhere that infant mortallity is less in Canada than in the US???

[mikedavid00]

Didn't I read somewhere that infant mortallity is less in Canada than in the US???

Yes. Americans die before their time more than Canadians. A lot due to homocides and army work etc.

For instance,

Ontario 1.45 Homicides per 100,000 people.

Detroit 42.0 Homicides per 100,000 people.

You cannot say that this does not effect the statistics. If someone dug deep enough and excluded the homocides and army deaths, and then excluded elderly immigrating to Canada, I would not be suprised if the rates were the same or the Americans actually came out on top.

My job title is 'data analyst' btw. hehe..

Dig a bit deeper instead of reading the headlines.

[Riverwind]

I never said it was all direct income tax. I'm also implying indirect tax payments (gas, hydro, CRC charge from your cel phone).

Gas and Hydro? That is not a tax by anyone's definition.

I think it was estimated that Canadians pay 52% of all their money on taxes.

Your explainations expose this claim as pure BS. I stand by my figure: 95% of Canadians pay less that 40% of their income in taxes.

So if you and your spouce make $6000 a month (gross), then you are roughly paying $675 a month for healthcare.

Which is a pretty good deal compared to the US where family coverage comparable to the Canada system costs >$1000/month (assuming you don't have a pre-existing condition).

Either way, if they are citizens they are being COVERED and will receive excellent treatment.

You love to repeat BS long after it has been discredited. 32 million Americans CITIZENS have NO coverage - government or otherwise.

[Riverwind]

Ontario 1.45 Homicides per 100,000 people.

Detroit 42.0 Homicides per 100,000 people.

Infant mortality (deaths/1,000 live births): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...ity_rate_(2005)

180 United States   6.37

182 Cuba   6.04

199 Canada   4.63

I find it amusing that a child is more likely to die in the US than in Cuba.

Your are deluding yourself if think the higher child mortatality numbers are not caused by the sub-standard care available to poor americans.

[bush_cheney2004]

Didn't think you'd give up that easy. Just cannot think of any reasons why Canadians live longer, other than it has something vaguely Japanese ?

Average lifespans of scores or hundreds of millions of people are hard to dismess, but you just breeze on by , spouting a load of crap and ignoring facts..... so please don't ask me to take you seriously .

And I don't know what you are on about 'whites', unless you are now also contending that the 40 million people in the US without insurance of any kind, and the scores of millions that are underinsured, are not disproportionately non-Cacausian?

Nice dodge...but you were the one who obsessed on "whites". What is a "non-Cacausian"? Is that from Star Trek?

Maybe Canadians live longer because they need the extra time to wait in line for socialist-commie health care procedures?

[mikedavid00]

180 United States   6.37

182 Cuba   6.04

199 Canada   4.63

I find it amusing that a child is more likely to die in the US than in Cuba.

You are only supporting my point.

These births HEAVLY weigh the statistics down for life expectancy.

But this topic shouldn't be up for discussion as we really don't know exactly how each country measures this.

I'm amazed you wouldn't even question how these stats are conducted for each country.

Do you really trust stats coming out of Cuba?

What I'm saying is that 77 vs. 80 is well within a margine of difference. Not error, just 'difference' of how each country conducts their stats.

[guyser]

Maybe Canadians live longer because they need the extra time to wait in line for socialist-commie health care procedures?

Since the really dont wait, and it really isn't commie (got to give you socialist I guess) by any stretch of the imagination........what could be your point?

[hiti]

Give Harper a majority and this is what will follow as he changes Canada in his own image:

This incident happened at the assembly in Saskatoon, April 1991. At this policy making Reform Assembly health care policy was presented under the head "Provincialization". Below is what one former reform member wrote:

The resolution on health care was introduced by a special committee personally appointed and chaired by Preston Manning. It called for "provincialization" of health care. A resolution from Swift Current calling for "the continuance of universal medicare in Canada" was not even allowed on the agenda. When it was introduced as an Amendment. Preston Manning opposed it. His "provincialization" resolution became the official Party policy. Equally significant is a background paper by the Resolutions Committee justifying "provincialization" and opposing the Swift Current resolution is date January 13/91 and reads: "The Reform Party opposes increasing use of the spending power of the federal government in the areas of provincial jurisdiction, such as Medicare, Education and the like".

"The issue of medicare creates distinct policy problems for the Reform Party. If the Reform Party endorses universal medicare as proposed in the Swift Current resolution, it will then have to indicate how it intends to do this. This will invariably lead to Reform taking substantive legislative positions in a major area of provincial jurisdiction, which will lead to serious contradictions with our constitutional and fiscal policies".

The debate on this occurred at the Assembly at Saskatoon, April 1991. Within two months machinery was put in motion leading to expulsion of the four persons who insisted on introducing the Swift Current resolution as an amendment.

There are many other expulsions and also 1 court case that I am aware of in 1993 in Ontario for fraudulent misrepresentation. I am sure there are many more people who know of these same incidents and there are probably more that I have never heard of. Enough said and by the way I am not a "SPY" these are true incidents.

[margrace]

Maybe Canadians live longer because they need the extra time to wait in line for socialist-commie health care procedures?

Since the really dont wait, and it really isn't commie (got to give you socialist I guess) by any stretch of the imagination........what could be your point?

We have a great system, so why do the Americans hate it so. I broke my ankle in three places, went right to the hospital and had it looked at right away. This in a small town hospital. What is wrong with that?

[guyser]

We have a great system, so why do the Americans hate it so. I broke my ankle in three places, went right to the hospital and had it looked at right away. This in a small town hospital. What is wrong with that?

Americans dont hate our system. They may be privy to a whole lot of dis-information and subscribe beliefs on that , but hate? nope.

To many of them from other forums, there seems to be a belief that we have to "get permission" to see Docs, and that we are allowed only to see a doc that is prescribed to us. They seem to think we have to make a call to some central bureau beforehand. All false.

They believe the false wait times , believe that people are dying on gurneys in hospitals , believe that any serious illness will take a year or more to have a look at. Of course most of those that believe aare on the right. Plenty of left wing Libs are cool with our system , but frankly I dont think they ever could copy it due to the sheer numbers and money involved.

The Americans have always had the independance thing down pat , and that goes for everything. Got to admire that part for sure. But couple that with "socialist healthcare" and they want nothing of the sort.

The fact is, most americans have to call an HMO for serious illness threats and seek approval for coverage. They can and are denied many times. How that is any better is beyond me.

[bush_cheney2004]

They believe the false wait times , believe that people are dying on gurneys in hospitals , believe that any serious illness will take a year or more to have a look at. Of course most of those that believe aare on the right. Plenty of left wing Libs are cool with our system , but frankly I dont think they ever could copy it due to the sheer numbers and money involved.

No, mostly we believe the wait time registries from each province, readily available for download. I'm sure that emergency care is just ducky (at least same day treatment), but there is a long list of procedures from cardiac surgery to knee replacements that grow like weeds for wait times. Pretending it doesn't exist won't improve the wait times.

http://www.waittimealliance.ca/wait_times.htm

The fact is, most americans have to call an HMO for serious illness threats and seek approval for coverage. They can and are denied many times. How that is any better is beyond me.

I'm sure some do, but most don't make any such calls, and even when they do, they don't have to wait months for the procedure. The very concept of "wait time" is foreign to most Americans, but it is a mainstay of CHA healthcare because of entitlement and disappointed expectations.

The average wait times for medical procedures may make medical tourism to the United States more attractive to patients living in Canada. Although, Canadians typically experience more affordable health care than US patients, the wait times may not be worth the savings. The Fraser Institute, which measures, studies, and communicates the impact of competitive markets and government intervention on the welfare of individuals, reported that in some cases, total patient wait times from referral to treatment were almost 18 weeks in 2006. In 2005, the shortest wait time was just over 16 weeks.