Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

[jbg]

Thank you for pointing that out to me. Quite sloppy of me, I apologize. I don't think there is an equivalent document in Canada. There are the Articles of Confederation, which comes closest, and the British North America act.

Pliny, no need to apologize. You know strikingly more about the US than I could hope to know about Canada (which frankly is nothing).

The distinctions among various Revolutionary era declarations, pamphlets, quotes, and the actual text of the Constitution is inspiringly confusing. What rings clear from reading any serious work about the era, such as the book I recently read, McCullough's John Adams was the number of truly bright people involved in the creation of the United States. At various times, many of them were either around in the various US capitals (New York, then Philadelphia, then Washington), in their home state legislatures, writing pamphlets, or overseas as diplomats. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, for instance, spent much of the Revolutionary War period in France (and in addition Holland for Adams) seeking funds to fight the Canadians British. They certainly didn't stop writing.

Since Adams and Jefferson retained ambassadorial responsibilities (Adams in Canada Britain and Jefferson in France, they were not around for the writing of the Constitution. This tumult of personalities created a difficult to follow array of immortal writing.

[Pliny]

Pliny, no need to apologize. You know strikingly more about the US than I could hope to know about Canada (which frankly is nothing).

The distinctions among various Revolutionary era declarations, pamphlets, quotes, and the actual text of the Constitution is inspiringly confusing. What rings clear from reading any serious work about the era, such as the book I recently read, McCullough's John Adams was the number of truly bright people involved in the creation of the United States. At various times, many of them were either around in the various US capitals (New York, then Philadelphia, then Washington), in their home state legislatures, writing pamphlets, or overseas as diplomats. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams, for instance, spent much of the Revolutionary War period in France (and in addition Holland for Adams) seeking funds to fight the Canadians British. They certainly didn't stop writing.

Since Adams and Jefferson retained ambassadorial responsibilities (Adams in Canada Britain and Jefferson in France, they were not around for the writing of the Constitution. This tumult of personalities created a difficult to follow array of immortal writing.

I know more about America than I do about Canada as well because there is very little discussion about political ideology in Canada. There is only the status quo and it is the best in the world. No need for discussion. Similar to the Canadian opinion of health care. What's to discuss when you have reached perfection? There is only a squabble at the trough as to who should get what from government spoils.

Edited September 4, 2007 by Pliny

[jbg]

I know more about America than I do about Canada as well because there is very little discussion about political ideology in Canada. There is only the status quo and it is the best in the world. No need for discussion. Similar to the Canadian opinion of health care. What's to discuss when you have reached perfection? There is only a squabble at the trough as to who should get what from government spoils.

At least you can find Canada on a map. I was only able to find Baffin Island.

[Pliny]

At least you can find Canada on a map. I was only able to find Baffin Island.

That's the one just off the coast of Arizona isn't it? Close to Alaska?

[jbg]

That's the one just off the coast of Arizona isn't it? Close to Alaska?

I mapquested it. It's actually closer to Saskatchewan's seal rookeries. Edited September 5, 2007 by jbg

[Pliny]

I mapquested it. It's actually closer to Saskatchewan's seal rookeries.

I suppose on a thread about Canada's health care system Saskatchewan does have historical significance. Otherwise, it's seal rookeries are quite popular with Americans.

[stevoh]

The arguments on here are just plain nasty. We have them too. Its my money and you can die before I help you. That is the bottom line.

Its pretty sad really. Of all of the things that you can focus on that are an actual waste of taxpayers money, you wouldn't think the health of your fellow Canadians would be one of them.

[jbg]

I suppose on a thread about Canada's health care system Saskatchewan does have historical significance. Otherwise, it's seal rookeries are quite popular with Americans.

The question is, did Tommy Douglas do more of a disservice by establishing the health care system or by legalizing seal hunting and the placing of lobster pots on Saskatchewan's shore?

[Pliny]

Its pretty sad really. Of all of the things that you can focus on that are an actual waste of taxpayers money, you wouldn't think the health of your fellow Canadians would be one of them.

You are the one not focusing on the health of our fellow Canadians. I am, by focusing on the abysmal health care system.

[bush_cheney2004]

Whoops..they did it again....BC that is...seems there was no room for preemie Aiden at the inn:

...Courtney Nassey's son, Aiden, was born six weeks sooner than expected at Langley Memorial Hospital just outside of Vancouver. He had trouble breathing and needed a level three neo-natal bed. But none were available in all of Western Canada.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[trex]

Whoops..they did it again....BC that is...seems there was no room for preemie Aiden at the inn:

...Courtney Nassey's son, Aiden, was born six weeks sooner than expected at Langley Memorial Hospital just outside of Vancouver. He had trouble breathing and needed a level three neo-natal bed. But none were available in all of Western Canada.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

pretty sad when we piss away 14.5 billion to the bankers, with things like this going on.

[Guest American Woman]

Whoops..they did it again....BC that is...seems there was no room for preemie Aiden at the inn:

...Courtney Nassey's son, Aiden, was born six weeks sooner than expected at Langley Memorial Hospital just outside of Vancouver. He had trouble breathing and needed a level three neo-natal bed. But none were available in all of Western Canada.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

It's nice to know that little Aiden was cared for under Canada's healthcare program; that the costs of his care were covered, no matter what lengths they had to go to to give him that care. He wasn't put on a wait list until his needs could be met. It's always nice to see that a baby is given a fair chance in life, and Canada made sure little Aiden was given that chance.

I understand the concern Canadians have over paying out the high cost of health coverage in the U.S., though. I can understand why people feel that the money should be put on more medical facilities in Canada. It only makes sense.

But it's too bad that "nearly nine million children" in the United States don't have access to that same level of concern/care; too bad they don't have any health insurance coverage. Too bad 19.3 percent of children living in poverty in the United States have no health insurance. It's not only too bad, it's really unbelievable. It's indefensible.

[jbg]

But it's too bad that "nearly nine million children" in the United States don't have access to that same level of concern/care; too bad they don't have any health insurance coverage. Too bad 19.3 percent of children living in poverty in the United States have no health insurance. It's not only too bad, it's really unbelievable. It's indefensible.

I believe that the Hippocratic Oath prevents anyone from being turned away from such care. How it's paid for is a different issue. It falls on the backs of wealthier people; much like in Canada.

[sharkman]

It's nice to know that little Aiden was cared for under Canada's healthcare program; that the costs of his care were covered, no matter what lengths they had to go to to give him that care. He wasn't put on a wait list until his needs could be met. It's always nice to see that a baby is given a fair chance in life, and Canada made sure little Aiden was given that chance.

I understand the concern Canadians have over paying out the high cost of health coverage in the U.S., though. I can understand why people feel that the money should be put on more medical facilities in Canada. It only makes sense.

But it's too bad that "nearly nine million children" in the United States don't have access to that same level of concern/care; too bad they don't have any health insurance coverage. Too bad 19.3 percent of children living in poverty in the United States have no health insurance. It's not only too bad, it's really unbelievable. It's indefensible.

It's nice that you love our Health care system so much, but you're missing the point. Our system can no longer give care at a basic level. I could cite example after example of waiting lists and line ups and sending Canadian patients down to the U.S. to giveemergency treatment that we can't, all you have to do is read this thread. Is the glass half full or half empty? When our baby boomer generation starts retiring out of our health care system, it will drain.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's nice to know that little Aiden was cared for under Canada's healthcare program; that the costs of his care were covered, no matter what lengths they had to go to to give him that care. He wasn't put on a wait list until his needs could be met. It's always nice to see that a baby is given a fair chance in life, and Canada made sure little Aiden was given that chance.

Sure....just think...Canada has plenty of resources dedicated to having Baby Aiden aborted....perfectly legal for a preemie!

I understand the concern Canadians have over paying out the high cost of health coverage in the U.S., though. I can understand why people feel that the money should be put on more medical facilities in Canada. It only makes sense.

Yes, that was the purpose of the story, not Baby Aiden's Great Adventure.

But it's too bad that "nearly nine million children" in the United States don't have access to that same level of concern/care; too bad they don't have any health insurance coverage. Too bad 19.3 percent of children living in poverty in the United States have no health insurance. It's not only too bad, it's really unbelievable. It's indefensible.

Send them to Canada, who can then send them back to the USA for lack of facilities.

Edited September 30, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

I believe that the Hippocratic Oath prevents anyone from being turned away from such care. How it's paid for is a different issue. It falls on the backs of wealthier people; much like in Canada.

True....Americans are already paying for these folks and more. Hillary Clinton has proposed mandatory insurance purchased through employment or out of pocket with sliding fees. Americans pay more...because they get more.

[Guest American Woman]

I believe that the Hippocratic Oath prevents anyone from being turned away from such care. How it's paid for is a different issue. It falls on the backs of wealthier people; much like in Canada.

Do you also believe people never lie in court because they took an oath to tell the truth?

I hate to break it to you, but people, including babies and children, get turned away at the admissions desk-- they don't even make it to the doctor (and his oath ). Watch Sicko and learn something-- including how a little toddler died because she was turned away at admissions. There's a reason why our infant mortality rate is higher than Canada's.

I'm curious, though. For those fortunate enough to get treatment, how do people who can't pay their bills get the addresses of those wealthier people who will pay their bills for them?

What a crock that it "falls on the backs of wealthier people." We pay more per capita for health care and millions of people don't even get any.

-----

It's nice that you love our Health care system so much, but you're missing the point.

No, Sharkman. I didn't miss the point. I didn't miss anything, as my response clearly shows.

Edited September 30, 2007 by American Woman

[jbg]

What a crock that it "falls on the backs of wealthier people." We pay more per capita for health care and millions of people don't even get any.

Through higher charges to paying customers, they do.

[Guest American Woman]

Through higher charges to paying customers, they do.

Like I said, that's a crock. The medical field doesn't "forgive" people their debts, only to charge paying customers more.

But I'll take your claim and go with it: If lack of insurance is already causing higher prices, it would make sense to provide universal coverage so everyone would be paying according to ability. Actually, that's not accurate since taxes are more of a burden on people in the lower income bracket than those in the higher income, but at least everyone would be covered. As it stands now, everyone has to pay into the system, but 50 million are going without coverage.

It's inexcusable that 18,000 Americans die needlessly every year because of lack of coverage. It's inexcusable that so many more are going without the care they need because of lack of coverage.

No comment about the little three year old who died because she was refused admission, eh?

[bush_cheney2004]

Through higher charges to paying customers, they do.

Of course...pretty simple but they just don't get it. Those who pay the freight get more choices than those who don't.

[sharkman]

Yes Cheney, to be perfectly honest with you I would rather live and work in the U.S. for its far superior medical system than be in Canada's plan. We also have many doctors and nurses who feel the same way and have moved south. I'll pay more for better faster treatment any day.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes Cheney, to be perfectly honest with you I would rather live and work in the U.S. for its far superior medical system than be in Canada's plan. We also have many doctors and nurses who feel the same way and have moved south. I'll pay more for better faster treatment any day.

Canadians who place higher value on universal access at the cost of waiting times and/or choices should stick with what they have and try to improve it. But as you have indicated, those Canadians and Americans with the means to do so will not stand in line for state sponsored mediocrity. The Americans already have a single-payer system that dwarfs the CHA. This kid Aiden and his mother got a break by being so close to a huge, for-profit system that has excess capacity.

[trex]

It's nice that you love our Health care system so much, but you're missing the point. Our system can no longer give care at a basic level. I could cite example after example of waiting lists and line ups and sending Canadian patients down to the U.S. to giveemergency treatment that we can't, all you have to do is read this thread. Is the glass half full or half empty? When our baby boomer generation starts retiring out of our health care system, it will drain.

i've worked in the health care system for 20 years and i can tell you, the system has had so many cuts that make utterly no sense. the closing of beds, the closing of entire wings. minimal effort is expended in combating "brain brain", much to the benefit of the elitist physicians organizations. thats why i say, take the surplus and fix what they have broken by the clawbacks.

we are paying the higher taxes for a system that should work. the system is being attacked by big business interest groups who want to see it go private, for the massive bucks it has to offer.

we can fix it, we have the financial resources but its not a priority to the federalist bed wetters

[margrace]

Yes Cheney, to be perfectly honest with you I would rather live and work in the U.S. for its far superior medical system than be in Canada's plan. We also have many doctors and nurses who feel the same way and have moved south. I'll pay more for better faster treatment any day.

Well away you go or are you already there. I have a brother in law who hates the Canadian system and loves the Way it is in America. Funny he can't get a work permit down there and he is a sicky type who milks the Canadian system for all its worth. Its people like him who create problems in our system.

[Pliny]

i've worked in the health care system for 20 years and i can tell you, the system has had so many cuts that make utterly no sense. the closing of beds, the closing of entire wings. minimal effort is expended in combating "brain brain", much to the benefit of the elitist physicians organizations. thats why i say, take the surplus and fix what they have broken by the clawbacks.

we are paying the higher taxes for a system that should work. the system is being attacked by big business interest groups who want to see it go private, for the massive bucks it has to offer.

we can fix it, we have the financial resources but its not a priority to the federalist bed wetters

When is a cut not a cut?

The fact is that the health care system has never suffered from cuts. The Budget expands every year, that's a fact.

When you are talking about "cuts" you are talking about not increasing the budget by a higher percentage than it was increased the year before.

I thought we had put this thread to bed.