Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcar

[bush_cheney2004]

Then why are you afraid of a system that covers all Americans instead of just Armed Forces members?

Because no such thing exists....Canada is proof of that...they are just "covered" for waiting in line.

40 million americans have no healthcare at all. Many more would face financial ruin if they developed a chronic illness.

Patently false...many Americans who lack health insurance are covered by Medicaid, state programs, disability, student clinics, etc. Others eschew health care insurance by choice.

Go back to your "white" healthcare strawman and race bating yarns.

[Riverwind]

Because no such thing exists....Canada is proof of that...they are just "covered" for waiting in line.

You clearly know nothing about the Canadian system. Everyone is covered in Canada and the majority of people do get timely, quality care. I know many people who have had serious illnesses and only about 1 in 10 have had a bad experience. 1 in 10 is still larger than it should be but it does illustrate that your perceptions of the Canadian health care system are largely a myth.

You also evaded the question: you had no problems with government funded care when you were in the army. Why are you afraid of the same care being extended to all Americans?

Patently false...many Americans who lack health insurance are covered by Medicaid, state programs, disability, student clinics, etc.

How can you support a system when you can't even get your facts right: http://www.kff.org/uninsured/

Lack of health insurance coverage for 46 million Americans is one of the nation's most pressing problems. While most elderly Americans have coverage through Medicare and over 60% of non-elderly Americans receive health coverage through employer-sponsored plans, many workers and their families remain uninsured because their employer does not offer coverage or they cannot afford the cost of coverage. Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) help fill in the gaps for low-income children and some of their parents, but the reach of these programs is limited. As a result, millions of Americans without health insurance face adverse health consequences because of delayed or foregone health care.

The 46 million americans have no access to _any_ health coverage - government or otherwise.

Please explain how those 46 million people have better healthcare than a Canadian?

[margrace]

80 years average lifespan in Canada.

77 average in USA.

Essentially the same culture, diet , lifestyle.

Significantly different levels of health care.

No explanation other than ' My cat gets better health care than that, and he also has no insurance.'

Like I said, the classic "I got mine".

What an ugly, selfish point of view.

You can have those extra three years and then some....we're not interested in commie health care. Besides, a lot of that extra "lifespan" is spent consuming American culture..LOL!

Go back to your ignorant racist rants....

What insurance company do you work for. How many food banks do you support?

[mikedavid00]

Oh come on now, that only applies to those Americans that can afford coverage and in large part to those who have their premiums paid for by their employers.

The 40 million Americans that are uninsured and the many more that are underinsured are not 'happy '.

That's not true. Canadian healthcare is WORSE than and more communist than HMO care.

I will easily go on the record as saying that HMO is far better quality care than our system.

That isn't what I said. I said we would never have enough money to keep everybody alive forever, which is waht the Friends of Medicare insist happened in the mythical Good Old Days. Between enhanced life spans and massive costs of technology/drugs, we'll never have enough $.

Oh I see what you're saying. I disagree and find that not to be the issue. IMO it's just an issue of immigration and government management.

Our healthcare situation is no different that our infrastructure - both are not meant to hand the loads of over-use they are being inflicted with.

Goto any major hospital in any major city and you will have people who cannot speak English and translators.

Look... 50,000 people alone residing in Lebanon with full access to our healthcare system. My co-worker said she has two Aunts who have Canadian citizenship and live in Iran.

But make no mistake, they are coming here for their triple bypass.

This is the failure of our system for the most part - we are simply letting anyone, and mostly the 3rd world, into Canada to use our system.

But you want to blame Canadians that have paid into our system their whole lives. We should'nt be living as long in order to fund people who don't even want to live here.

[bush_cheney2004]

You clearly know nothing about the Canadian system. Everyone is covered in Canada and the majority of people do get timely, quality care. I know many people who have had serious illnesses and only about 1 in 10 have had a bad experience. 1 in 10 is still larger than it should be but it does illustrate that your perceptions of the Canadian health care system are largely a myth.

1 in 10 SUCKS for the socialist-commie system that promises equal access and great healthcare. The American system makes no such promises, but insurance or cash sure makes for a happy day.

Please explain how those 40 million people have better healthcare than a Canadian?

Easy....they can income qualify for Medicaid, book an appointment, present their program ID card, and get services within days or weeks....not months or years. This includes MRIs and CT scans, which for some reason are scarce for Canucks.

If an emergency, they can present at any county hospital and receive services right next to the "WHITE PEOPLE"!

[Riverwind]

Easy....they can income qualify for Medicaid, book an appointment, present their program ID card, and get services within days or weeks....not months or years. This includes MRIs and CT scans.

Read my link - 46 million Americans DO NOT QUALIFY FOR ANY GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. They have NO coverage.

Stop repeating things which are demostatably false. Why do you think these 46 million americans have better coverage than Canadians?

1 in 10 SUCKS for the socialist-commie system that promises equal access and great healthcare. The American system makes no such promises, but insurance or cash sure makes for a happy day.

What a rediculous argument. How many americans are 'promised' coverage under their health plans but find that treatments are denied by HMOs?

[mikedavid00]

The working poor, poor and even many middle class insured people have little or no access to preventative medicine because they simply cannot afford it.

The majority of people who do not have healthcare are in an age group in their early-mid 20's where they are going to university and such. When they start their working life they will have healthcare.

This is why no one is complaining over the film or even watching it - AMERICANS EITHER RIGHT OR LEFT DO NOT AGREE WITH MOORE AND THAT'S WHY IT FINISHED 9TH PLACE IT'S OPENNING WEEKEND.

Do your research before you post. Learn something for God's sake about the American healthcare and Immigration system.

[bush_cheney2004]

Read my link - 46 million Americans DO NOT QUALIFY FOR ANY GOVERNMENT PROGRAM. They have NO coverage.

Your link is wrong...my own brother has NEVER had health insurance but suffered a compound leg fracture in 1993 (New York City). He received excellent care and follow-up therapy courtesy of the fine citizens of New York.

All Americans qualify for government programs by definition if they meet income/wealth standards, usually set as a percentage of the poverty level. Otherwise, they need to "spend down".

But keep spreading your boogie-man stories about the "American system".

[mikedavid00]

the Canadian system is much better than the US system when you look at the population as a whole.

Prove it.

I'm waiting.

[bush_cheney2004]

What a rediculous argument. How many americans are 'promised' coverage under their health plans but find that treatments are denied by HMOs?

To use you favorite term..YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.

The American "system" doesn't promise anything more than what's in the benefits booklet, and that includes exclusions, pre-existing conditions, co-payments, coordination of benefits, and mandatory arbitration for disputes.

It is not the socialist-commie third rail of politics like the CHA.

[Riverwind]

The majority of people who do not have healthcare are in an age group in their early-mid 20's where they are going to university and such. When they start their working life they will have healthcare.

What a joke - you demand that others get their facts right immediately after you post blatent falsehoods.

Over half of uninsured childless adults ineligible for public coverage are age 30 or older and a large share (40%) have family incomes below 100% FPL. Over three quarters are in working families, but are disproportionately employed by small firms, and 43% percent reside in the South.

http://www.kff.org/uninsured/upload/7613.pdf

The rest of the uninsured are children or parents of children. Only a small fraction of uninsured americans are young university students.

Do your research before you post. Learn something for God's sake about the American healthcare and Immigration system.

Why don't you follow your own advice?

[Riverwind]

Your link is wrong...my own brother has NEVER had health insurance but suffered a compound leg fracture in 1993 (New York City). He received excellent care and follow-up therapy courtesy of the fine citizens of New York.

There are many reports on the net that back up my claim. NY is one state - the majority of Americans live in other states that have less generous medicare plans.

If you want to dispute the data I provided you should provide alternate sources. One anecdote is hardly a refutation.

It sounds like your faith in the US system is based on a myth. Would your opinion of the US system change if you were convinced that my facts are correct and 46 million Americans have no coverage from government plans? If not why not?

[bush_cheney2004]

There are many reports on the net that back up my claim. NY is one state - the majority of Americans live in other states that have less generous medicare plans.

If you want to dispute the data I provided you should provide alternate sources. One anecdote is hardly a refutation.

Uh-oh..you just admitted your ignorance. Medicare is an entirely different federal program administered through the states for the elderly, disabled, and dependent survivors. I'm talking about MEDICAID..and other state programs such as Minnesota's MNCare, or California's MediCal, or Wisconsin's BadgerCare, etc. etc.

Don't worry, I don't expect you to Google your way into knowing what the hell goes on in the States.

[Riverwind]

I'm talking about MEDICAID..and other state programs such as Minnesota's MNcare, or California's MediCal, or Wisconsin's BadgerCare, etc. etc.

Whatever. The data I provide clearly indicates that 40 million Americans have no access to ANY government program. Do you have any credible sources that refute the data I provided or are you going continue to plug ears and shake your head screaming 'no its not true - i don't want to believe it'.

[bush_cheney2004]

Whatever. The data I provide clearly indicates that 40 million Americans have no access to ANY government program. Do you have any credible sources that refute the data I provided or are you going continue to plug ears and shake your head screaming 'no its not true - i don't want to believe it'.

You have made the classic mistake of all socialist-commie assumptions.

Any American may present at hospital for emergency treatment...it is paid for by a "government program" if the patient lacks insurance or cash....

In the United States, around 84% of citizens have health insurance, either through their employer (60%), purchased individually (9%), or provided by government programs (27%; there is some overlap in these figures).[3] The federal government does not guarantee universal health care to all its citizens, but certain publicly-funded health care programs help to provide for the elderly, disabled, children, and the poor,[4][5] and federal law ensures public access to emergency services regardless of ability to pay.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_i...e_United_States

[guyser]

There seems to be a whole lot of hooey being spread around here.

For one, Riverwind, why attack a system that DC is cool with? If there is a problem, then that is their problem , discuss all you want but why attack. They have unique problems that we dont have , aside from "some" misguided posters here, like 20M immigrants that are crashing systems left right and centre in the southern states (mainly).Thankfully we dont have that issue to deal with.

DC, you are missing your mark. Practically no one "waits" for healthcare in this country , all things considered. OK if you live in Wayoutsville you may have to for travel , monetary or personal restraints but this waiting is bogus for the most part. People who say they are waiting are whiners.Socialist/Commie ? Please.... As for Docs leaving, you are correct, but more come back in the past few years than are going.Costs for E&O are thru the roof down in the States , and with some specialties being more than 20 x's the cost for E&O here, it is economics that is winning. Of course you will get plenty from here, the US realizes we educate Docs well. Then again, you also get them from all parts of the world , something has to be said for having the absolute best med technology around, not in every specialty, but in a general sense.

MD00 , you want HMO ? Go move, I dont want to ask if I am covered for anything. From my experience with the US system , thru my American friends (NY and Ohio), it is a good system but the main complaint I get is that they hate someone "else" controlling the purse strings and denying all until the wheel gets squeaky.As for their preference , they would like what we have, based on their own experience when they needed to use hospital services in Canada.(Yes I know this is a one off....)

As for those 50,000 Lebanese getting health coverage , not if they are out of the country for more than 180 days or are students and filled out the paperwork. Perhaps your own words here are apt..."Do your research before you post."

In many earlier threads it was always thrown around that people are dying. Can one show me where please? NO one has done that yet. And apparently they are dying on the streets. Where?

Having been in hospital daily from 9-11-01 to 12-26-04 and subsequently for my cancer treatment , I can pretty much say a ton of BS is bandied about.

The people who whine in the press are the ones who wanted Lil Johnny and his hurt finger treated the same way as one gets meat at the store....take a number and whos next? Yes well that does not work in a triage environment. Lil J can wait a whole day for all I care if it means Sue and her severed arm, Frank and his crash crash injuries and the person being medi-vacced in get treated first.

Someone suggested user pay fees. I would have been against it, but it seems the message is not getting thru and that is emerg is not a Docs office. If it can wait, let it wait. Maybe we need to give emerg's more power to tell people to leave?

Rememeber folks, this is a huge country with a tiny population. Vast areas of this country are uninhabited to any real degree of taxable base. Cant be building hospitals anywhere so we build them where the most need is. There is a trade off for living almost off the grid. That is current movies, fresh food and medical care.

[Riverwind]

Any American may present at hospital for emergency treatment...it is paid for by a "government program" if the patient lacks insurance or cash.

Last resort emergency care is not a replacement for health coverage beacuse most health problems are not immediately life threatening. The uninsured in the US have no access to routine care or diagnostics tests. An uninsured person who needs a knee operation would have to wait forever. In Canadian they would get the operation even if it takes time. It sounds like you are agreeing that the Canadian health system provides better care that these 40 million Americans get.

[bush_cheney2004]

DC, you are missing your mark. Practically no one "waits" for healthcare in this country , all things considered. OK if you live in Wayoutsville you may have to for travel , monetary or personal restraints but this waiting is bogus for the most part. People who say they are waiting are whiners.Socialist/Commie ? Please.... As for Docs leaving, you are correct, but more come back in the past few years than are going.Costs for E&O are thru the roof down in the States , and with some specialties being more than 20 x's the cost for E&O here, it is economics that is winning. Of course you will get plenty from here, the US realizes we educate Docs well. Then again, you also get them from all parts of the world , something has to be said for having the absolute best med technology around, not in every specialty, but in a general sense.

OK..so you want me to ignore the programs targeted at gathering wait time metrics and reducing same to gain political advantage...I guess it is all a myth and drive through MRIs are a reality in Saskatoon!

You want me to forget that Martin and Chretien balanced the books on the backs of provincial health care budgets...cause everything was/is just peachy keen.

Of course I am correct about the docs leaving....Hello? America did not invent "brain drain"...but it sure is the cause.

Bottom line for this Yankee is that Michael Moore would be the first to get his fat ass to the Mayo Clinic when it counted, and he would bring his checkbook.

[bush_cheney2004]

Any American may present at hospital for emergency treatment...it is paid for by a "government program" if the patient lacks insurance or cash.

Last resort emergency care is not a replacement for health coverage beacuse most health problems are not immediately life threatening. The uninsured in the US have no access to routine care or diagnostics tests. An uninsured person who needs a knee operation would have to wait forever. In Canadian they would get the operation even if it takes time. It sounds like you are agreeing that the Canadian health system provides better care that these 40 million Americans get.

You are wrong. Many uninsured Americans have access to routine preventive care and reproductive care through community clinics and educational institutions.

Knee operation would be a cinch once Medicaid spend downs are met.

Try again.

[guyser]

OK..so you want me to ignore the programs targeted at gathering wait time metrics and reducing same to gain political advantage...I guess it is all a myth and drive through MRIs are a reality in Saskatoon!

You want me to forget the Martin and Chretien balanced the books on the backs of provincial health care budgets...cause everything was/is just peachy keen.

No one asked you to ignore anything.

Of course I am correct about the docs leaving....Hello? Americans did not invent "brain drain".

Uh no. That is incorrect . More returned than left.

But lets not get bogged down on this, we are talking less than one half of a percent. Either way, minor movement, and it was in the 90's when we had a surplus of Docs that the migration to other countries occured , not just the US.

Bottom line for this Yankee is that Michael Moore would be the first to get his fat ass to the Mayo Clinic when it counted, and he would bring his checkbook.

I have no doubt that is true, and that is what gets Moore the bad press. One thing for him, something else for others.

[Riverwind]

I have no doubt that is true, and that is what gets Moore the bad press. One thing for him, something else for others.

Moore addressed this on Larry King live. He acknowledged that he was fortunate enough to afford the care because he belongs to a union with an excellent health care plan. He admitted he would never seek healthcare in Cuba. He went on to point out that his personal circumstances do not change his argument that millions of Americans do not have access to the heath care that he does and that he believes they should have the same access.

[guyser]

Moore addressed this on Larry King live. He acknowledged that he was fortunate enough to afford the care because he belongs to a union with an excellent health care plan. He admitted he would never seek healthcare in Cuba. He went on to point out that his personal circumstances do not change his argument that millions of Americans do not have access to the heath care that he does and that he believes they should have the same access.

All well and fine. But Moore has been shown to edit in such a way that gives false impressions as to make the rest of his movies questionable.

I actually like the guy, I like that he skewers, but no way am I going to idolize him.

Bits and pieces one can use from his films, but that is a minefield I am not stepping in. So much obfuscation in his pieces.

[bush_cheney2004]

He admitted he would never seek healthcare in Cuba. He went on to point out that his personal circumstances do not change his argument that millions of Americans do not have access to the heath care that he does and that he believes they should have the same access.

No surprise there...Moore has access to better health care than most Americans, Canadians, or Cubans, regardless of insurance. Why does he believe this....communism? LOL!

[noahbody]

Uh no. That is incorrect . More returned than left.

Did some come back twice?

[Riverwind]

All well and fine. But Moore has been shown to edit in such a way that gives false impressions as to make the rest of his movies questionable.

Moore's movies are opinion peices that need to be taken with a grain of salt. I was simply pointing out that he does not deserve to be labelled a hypocrite because he acknowledges that the US does provide good care for those lucky enough to have coverage.